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Cleanse and Purify + Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients

173 Epistolary w/ Fear of the Dark, Fury of the Ancients, Terminator Armor, Purity Seals, Tank Hunter, CCW.

247 Terminator Command Squad x4 w/ Assault Cannon x2, Chain Fist, Tank Hunter, Drop Pod.

290 Terminator Squad x5 w/ Assault Cannon x2, Chain Fist, Tank Hunter, Drop Pod.

290 Terminator Squad x5 w/ Assault Cannon x2, Chain Fist, Tank Hunter, Drop Pod.

170 Dreadnaught w/ Heavy Flamer, Venerable, Extra Armor, Drop Pod.

170 Dreadnaught w/ Heavy Flamer, Venerable, Extra Armor, Drop Pod.

 80 Land Speeder Tornado w/ Assault Cannon.

 80 Land Speeder Tornado w/ Assault Cannon.

175 Tactical Marine x6 w/ Melta Gun x2, Veteran Sargeant w/ Power Fist, Drop Pod.

175 Tactical Marine x6 w/ Melta Gun x2, Veteran Sargeant w/ Power Fist, Drop Pod.

It comes out to 1850 exactly. I'm not really concerned with comp obviously Thoughts?

I'm assuming you're going with the "Venerables allowed in Heavy Support" interpretation? That may bite you in the ass, in my experience. It's not as widely-held as you may think.

Interesting, I never really thought about it. I'll go peruse the YMDC and see if I can find a thread about it. Assuming it's legal though... What do you think?

I don't think this is legal. What are your advantages/disadvantages? You don't appear to have taken a major disadvantage.

Well, wise men and I disagree on general pod philosophy. Looking at your list, I would guess that you will cut through about 60-70% of your opponents with ease.

However, if you play good players, they should be able to take you apart rather quickly. You've got 27 infantry models. That's not a lot. 15 terminators and 12 guys doesnot make for a robust list. You run the risk of not having the LS able to deep strike, and even when they do, you run the risk of them scattering onto something already on the table and losing them. Bad juju.

Dreadnoughts look pretty, but they're also the only target for high strength weaponry. Since you've gone ahead and pumped so many points into them, they'll become a very nice target.

Tank hunter on the Termies? okay. But if you're going to do that, where's the combi-plasma on the sergeant for the 2 str 8 shots against armor without losing any attacks?

Like I said, it's probably capable of beating a large percentage of the lists out there, and certainly has some advantages against the current incarnation of Tau and Eldar mech cav lists, BUT, it also has some weaknesses. If that's fine with you, good luck.

Its not legal. One of the three major disadvantages cant be taken to begin with, and the other two would make the force org illegal.

Just group the two speeders together, then it should be fine.

Sorry, been in a sleep-deprived haze for the past week due to work ><

Eye to Eye + We Stand Alone would be the Major and Minor drawbacks, and the two speeders would be grouped.

PapaNurgle: Half of the appeal of pods is mobile terrain to me, but I still see where you're coming from. You don't think that with half the list coming in it'd be able to obliterate whichever half you're targeting and still shield from the other half? Is your take on pods no-vehicles and infantry heavy?

I'm still curious to see other people's thoughts on it.

I've seen a similar list used with two hqs instead of one as the sole termie squads and extra troop squads for the dreads. It also had an extra speeder. It worked quite well against most opponents. My own list uses cleanse and purity and goes the heavy apothecary route but your list has its pros. No you will not score well on comp.

Mosg,
If half the list comes in, that's 2 terminator squads, 1 dreadnought, 1 tac squad, and 1 land speeder (yes, I know it's part of a squad of two, but that's okay).

That's 6 assault cannons and 2 melta guns. That yields 4 autokills and 3 additional kills against marines, and another 1-2 others from melta guns. Your 10 bolter equivalents will kill 2 more. That's 10-11 dead marines on the drop. Enough to kill, but what's really important is that you have 16 infantry models, and 2 vehicle models as scoring units. Most armies are made to kill 12-14 marines at range if they have to. You're presenting yourself at short range. An intelligent opponent will be deployed to force you into certain drop locations. You now recieve the entire volley of the opponent's army, minus 10 guys, plus charges. Las/plas at termies, bolters at your power armor, and MLs at your dread. Not much will be left standing.

If you run a list with less assault cannons, and more bodies, you end up with something like: 7 squads, 3-4 come in.

If 3 come in, you have 6 special weapon shots, 4 dead marines.
45 bolter shots, 5 dead.
Total 9 dead

If 4 come in, you have 8 special weapon shots: (notice that I'm giving the benefit of doubt to your way), 5 dead.
60 bolter shots/equivalent: 7 dead. 12 dead.

Averages to about the same dead. The difference lies in what happens after the other guy shoots. Against the second sort of list, you're more likely to have guys left. With 10 man squads, they have to kill you dead to get rid of the power fist. 30-40 marines is a lot of killing for one turn.

Bottom line is that I prefer something that's robust, and you prefer something that is small and elite. Just a matter of preference, but your lack of staying power is why I believe good players are going to be able to eat you for lunch.

I was thinking all day at work about the list, and I decided I don't like the Dreadnaughts. For that many points I just don't see them doing all that much. With that in mind...

Cleanse and Purify + We Stand Alone

160 -- Epistolary w/ Fear of the Dark, Fury of the Ancients, Terminator Armor, CCW.
235 -- Terminator Command x4 w/ Assault Cannon x2, Chain Fist, Drop Pod.

245 -- Terminator x5 w/ Assault Cannon x2, Chain Fist.
245 -- Terminator x5 w/ Assault Cannon x2, Chain Fist.

80 -- Land Speeder Tornado.
80 -- Land Speeder Tornado.
80 -- Land Speeder Tornado.

145 -- Tactical Marine x6 w/ Melta Gun x2, Drop Pod.
145 -- Tactical Marine x6 w/ Melta Gun x2, Drop Pod.
145 -- Tactical Marine x6 w/ Melta Gun x2, Drop Pod.
145 -- Tactical Marine x6 w/ Melta Gun x2, Drop Pod.
145 -- Tactical Marine x6 w/ Melta Gun x2, Drop Pod.
-------
1850

It has lots of melta/cannon death on the drop, mid/end game shooting via the Terminators/speeders, and the speeders provide end game objective grabbing depending on the mission. I would prefer to put all the Terminators in pods, but I just can't find the points for it and I only have 7 pods put together. It would take a pretty big time investment to put an 8th together at this point (damn you Kryon Flat Black!; lost the original 8th to a bad base).

Thoughts?

It's workable. I moght drop one of the tac squads to take vet sgts w/power fists for SOME close combat punch.

Termies without pods have some problems with coming in. You may find that you block your own LOS with the marines and termies arrive out of position for shots. One advantage of the pod is that you get to pick which side the unit comes out of once it gets placed.

If you do drop one of the tac squads, that frees up your drop pod model for the command squad which has a need to drop close. Nothing worse than scattering 11" onto a celestian squad and losing a terminator squad from bad scatter. (Darn you Flatlanderboss... darn you)

I personally wouldn't field termies without a pod, but some do successfully.

The command squad does have a pod, it's just the two regular Terminator units that do not.

I could drop a tac squad and one chainfist, put both Terminator units in pods (that'd make 7 pods total), and then add a Power Fist to 3 of the 4 tac squads... That drops the model count to 39 though. You think that'd work better?

The 6 man meltagun squads don't work as well as you'd think.

Pod list really works best when all your squads can capitalize on assault or are very shootie with good range (e.g. termie squads).

I'm not sure what your goal is, but if it's to 'have a really good list' there's three main schools of thought:

1. massed infantry with cleanse & bp/ccw (this is my favorite - can use either termies or dreads for the rest of the pods after all 6 troops are done)

2. massed infantry with plasma/apoths (works, but I think it fails to capitalize fully in the mobility/assault areas by not being able to charge after shooting)

3. terminators and dreads (3 venerable dreads in the heavy slots and termies up top, with a couple small melta squads).

If you haven't played it a few times I suggest trying out the dreads. I use a venerable and 2 normal dreads in my elite slots and they work great. They do a fair bit of dying, but they usually make their points back nowadays since I got tha hang of using them. You can't be afraid to just hold them back, in some scenarios (e.g. your opponent has a lot of antitank stuff you plan on killing with dropped meltas, or similar).

The heavy flamer on the dreads is invaluable for certain enemies, like Tyranids and Orks and Tau. Being able to flush space elves, kroot, orks, tau, bugs etc out of buildings/forests is really awesome. No one can safely cluster their troops in cover against me and I like that.

Also, the silly speeder tactical grab ploy will not work as often as you think. It only works with singleton speeders anyway (so the pair you had in the first list would be a poor idea). I'd get a third dread instead. Or drop them and get another terminator squad, if you're going with the second list.

I find it interesting that Papa and I have completely opposite views on what works for pods. (for example I think terminators without pods are excellent)

But he's been more successful with his pods, so listen to him. I'll report back if I ever use my pods in a really big tournament. (though for the record my pods are 11-0 in tournaments, and have won overall in all 3 tournaments I used them in).

Ed, (may I call you Ed?)
I think the difference is in play style. Certain lists work for certain people. I like the pods because they let me drop close, safely. They also give me a bit of terrain to hide behind, helping with survivability. That allows the termies to drop in close proximity to everything else without worry of what they might scatter on.
Last tournament I was in with Pods, I went 0-3 *sigh* so what does that say? (Oh yeah, faced Jeff Chua, the Godfather of Chicago, followed by blood angels, and I was stupid)

I guess the best way to find out is to keep in mind the differing opinions, and try them out. See what works for your style. Just like some people love plasma and don't take flamers in their squads, others won't take plasma for any reason. It's a matter of style, what you're comfortable with, and what works. It is interesting when two successful people have differing opinions. Just goes to show that different applications of principles are equally successful.

I would be tempted to say that you may want to swap a few meltas out for a few plasmas as the plasma gun does have an advantage against heavy infantry and can still pop a light vehicle.  Thats my suggestion though - I use a lot of plasmas in my lists though.  That Librarian does look intimidating to say the least.

Termies in a shooting role don't really need pods. They're dropping far enough away that whether they scatter isn't going to impact them much.

I only run one squad and it's an FOD squad, so I need the pod for ensuring I get close enough to get a good fear off.

Another thing to keep in mind is 'how many pods do I have?'

In my list, I use 6 pods of pure infantry (and terminator hq squad). That many pod drastically impact terminator placement by limiting their field of fire and where they can be placed to avoid a bad scatter. If I recall right, Ed, your list only uses a few pods - maybe 3-4?

I think having homers on a few squads could impact terminators positively to. The worry exists that your termies will come in before the pods are on the table for a turn, but it at least helps.

I think the more termies you run the less important it becomes that they have pods. But I could be wrong there, having not really played a termie heavy list yet.

Longshot,
I think what you miss on the shooty termie squad not needing pods is that if they drop far enough away to ensure a safe scatter, there is a good chance that they become the main attraction for half your opponent's army. If the pods drop close, forming a wall sealing off half the opponents army, then if the termies come in 12-24" from the opponent's battle line, they become the only thing the rest of the army can see. Sure you get one round of shooting with them, but from there on, you take large losses. If you can get the termies down on the ground, relatively close to the opponent's battle line, then you can then use pod placement to screen them. It's just never worked for me, and a reason I generally run the termies in the command squad rather than a separate unit. Nobody wants to get too close to the Librarian.