Switch Theme:

Imperial Guard 9th Edition Tactics  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






I loosely followed the debates about Drukhari and their option to spam liquifiers with dark technomancers. As far as I gathered it gives a pretty spammable autohitting 12'' assault D6, 4/-2/1 gun another point of damage and +1 to wound without downsides (as the bad consequences only happen on a hit roll of 6+ and autohitting stuff doesn't roll).
The combo seems to be the bane of everything with more than one wound currently, as they seem to easily kill their points worth of Marines in one turn.

Looking at that, purely from an armschair general perspective I would think that Guard Infantry spam could be a good counter to that. The second damage is wasted on them, and +1 to wound only increases damage potential by 1/4 (from 4/6 wound roll to 5/6 wound roll) so instead of more than doubling the damage output as against Marines and other multiwound stuff, it merely gives +25%. And in the case of conscripts, even half the AP is wasted. I only roughly glanced around, but it seems Guardsmen are amongst the few units, where wracks and grotesques need several turns of shooting to kill their points back.

some math for those interested:
5 Wracks with 2 Liquifiers (60 points) kill (on average) 5.833 conscripts or guardsmen a turn. Thats 30 (conscripts)-32+ (Infantry squad, depending on loadout) points.
3 Grotesques with 3 Liquifiers (135 points), kill 8.75 conscripts/guardsmen for 44/48+ points.

The other way around the Drukhari have to get within 12'', so within Rapid fire range. A barebones Infantry squad (55 points), shoots 19 times within 12'' (the sergeant shooting his laspistol), killing 2.64 Wracks or 21 points. If they get FRFSRF they wipe one 5 man Wrack squad (60 points with the Liquifiers).


So my question is: what are the thoughts of those with practical experience? Is this line of thought worth it or is there some basic flaw I missed?

~5600 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant






Jarms48 wrote:
Even then, Hydra's typically aren't great units. They might be okay if your local meta has a lot of fly units, but that's about it.


Good point but they might be really good against Drukhari Raiders (T6+Fly) and we might be seeing a lot of them since they are underpriced.

In fact it would seem Guard have some good tools vs Drukhari in general, mainly plasma (seems to be always the answer to every meta challenge, except death guard maybe) and autocannons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 09:38:48


I have a blog on the Warhammer Tournaments website:

Back to the Grimdark Future

My first and current painting and modeling blog:

Planetary Defence Force with alternative models and converted vehicles 
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




 Pyroalchi wrote:
I loosely followed the debates about Drukhari and their option to spam liquifiers with dark technomancers. As far as I gathered it gives a pretty spammable autohitting 12'' assault D6, 4/-2/1 gun another point of damage and +1 to wound without downsides (as the bad consequences only happen on a hit roll of 6+ and autohitting stuff doesn't roll).
The combo seems to be the bane of everything with more than one wound currently, as they seem to easily kill their points worth of Marines in one turn.

Looking at that, purely from an armschair general perspective I would think that Guard Infantry spam could be a good counter to that. The second damage is wasted on them, and +1 to wound only increases damage potential by 1/4 (from 4/6 wound roll to 5/6 wound roll) so instead of more than doubling the damage output as against Marines and other multiwound stuff, it merely gives +25%. And in the case of conscripts, even half the AP is wasted. I only roughly glanced around, but it seems Guardsmen are amongst the few units, where wracks and grotesques need several turns of shooting to kill their points back.

some math for those interested:
5 Wracks with 2 Liquifiers (60 points) kill (on average) 5.833 conscripts or guardsmen a turn. Thats 30 (conscripts)-32+ (Infantry squad, depending on loadout) points.
3 Grotesques with 3 Liquifiers (135 points), kill 8.75 conscripts/guardsmen for 44/48+ points.

The other way around the Drukhari have to get within 12'', so within Rapid fire range. A barebones Infantry squad (55 points), shoots 19 times within 12'' (the sergeant shooting his laspistol), killing 2.64 Wracks or 21 points. If they get FRFSRF they wipe one 5 man Wrack squad (60 points with the Liquifiers).


So my question is: what are the thoughts of those with practical experience? Is this line of thought worth it or is there some basic flaw I missed?


The models actually firing 2x DT Liquifiers kill 33 pts of models whilst costing themselves 36 pts so no, they even make it 1:1 with Guardsmen unfortunately; also you do not wipe a 5men Wracks squad with FRFSRF + Rapid Fire (3.426), meaning that those 2 remaining Liquifiers are with decent odds still alive

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/09 11:14:16


 
   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






With FRFSRF I should get 37 shots (4 x 9 from the lasguns + 1 Laspistol on the Sergant) within 12'', thats 18.5 hits, against T4 wracks 6.17 wounds, As they have 6+, that should be 5 unsaved wounds and kill a 5 dude squad, shouldn't it?
Edit: or do they have some kind of inv save I missed?

Fair enough, when one only takes the models holding the Liquifiers and ignores the three "tax" guys, you are right, they almost shoot their points back. It's still a better trade than SM etc. have.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/09 12:08:04


~5600 build and painted 
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




 Pyroalchi wrote:
With FRFSRF I should get 37 shots (4 x 9 from the lasguns + 1 Laspistol on the Sergant) within 12'', thats 18.5 hits, against T4 wracks 6.17 wounds, As they have 6+, that should be 5 unsaved wounds and kill a 5 dude squad, shouldn't it?
Edit: or do they have some kind of inv save I missed?

Fair enough, when one only takes the models holding the Liquifiers and ignores the three "tax" guys, you are right, they almost shoot their points back. It's still a better trade than SM etc. have.


6++ (5++ from BR4 onwards) and 5+++
   
Made in de
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Ok, te 6++ shouldn't do anything, the 5+++ would save 1/3 of the guys. So yeah, more like 3 something wracks killed. Fair enough. Still, let's say we suffer less than other codizes from this very weird combo

~5600 build and painted 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





So in the current meta, what sort of units would work well in a scion list outside the obvious scions, command squads and commanders backed up with a few taurox primes. Probably with the lions trait/relic that passes out an invul.

The Auxilia come to mind as they don't break the reginment, so ogryns to act as anchors alongside the taurox, maybe some psykers and or valks? Ratling's don't feel like they offer much these days, since you can always try to clear out an area and deep strike a bunch of special weapons.

None of the other tanks can slot into the regiment can they?
   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

None of the other tanks no; but you can grab any of the Aeronautica Imperialis air support options. Think of air power as your armour.

For 165 points, you can get an Avenger Strike Fighter rocking two lascannons, and an avenger assault cannon, which is a 10 shot S6, Ap2, D2 weapon. Oh, and a heavy stubber in a navigator's seat. (And it's an awesome model, a glorious synergy of a Stuka and an A-10)

Officers of the Fleet synergize well if you're running flyers & voxcasters, for 25 points you can buff the shooting of any number of flyers vs a target within 18" of the officer, and, if you have a voxcaster scion within 18" you can spend a CP to measure from him instead; or to add 2 to your MW roll from the OOF.

An Avenger and an Officer of the Fleet together run you less than 200 points and give you a lot of strong dakka to kill MEQs.




Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I beenrinning a lot of krieg support auxilliry with my online tts crusade army to mess withdrukari. A simple sentinal with a lascannon bwcomes a holy terror .. Outranges the foe and when shot will return fire fifty percent of time. Forgeworld rapier destroyers push this even further. Enfineers pop out ofbuildings where they hid behind other squads to inflict their grenade strat. None of this is perfect butit gives you a chance. Avengers make a decent distraction carnifax .. But their lackluster aim is a real drawback. Ok with offocr of flotte near though. Well thats my recent e?periwnce anyway.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




VonGerrow wrote:
None of the other tanks no; but you can grab any of the Aeronautica Imperialis air support options. Think of air power as your armour.

For 165 points, you can get an Avenger Strike Fighter rocking two lascannons, and an avenger assault cannon, which is a 10 shot S6, Ap2, D2 weapon. Oh, and a heavy stubber in a navigator's seat. (And it's an awesome model, a glorious synergy of a Stuka and an A-10)

Officers of the Fleet synergize well if you're running flyers & voxcasters, for 25 points you can buff the shooting of any number of flyers vs a target within 18" of the officer, and, if you have a voxcaster scion within 18" you can spend a CP to measure from him instead; or to add 2 to your MW roll from the OOF.

An Avenger and an Officer of the Fleet together run you less than 200 points and give you a lot of strong dakka to kill MEQs.


The Avenger would be much more likely to trigger Hammer Blow than a Valkyrie. The only issue is BS, an Avenger is only BS4+ and the Officer of the Fleet only provides rerolls of 1 to hit. So it's not amazing. In terms of firepower it's better than an Exterminator or an Eradicator. Someone would have to do the math to compare it to a Battle Tank or Executioner. Though obviously an MT detachment gets none of these, so it's the best they can really do.

Though one thing to consider is if MT did want some tanks, you could just take a spearhead with Leman Russes. 2 demolisher tank commanders and 3 standard demolishers, give them spotter details and gunnery experts. You'd probably do better than Avengers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/16 01:20:06


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Can you use officer of the fleet ability inside a chimera? Also can you use the astral divination from astropath inside a chimera? I know you can't cast psychic powers inside a transport..

This would be useful to getting the astropath/officer of the fleet within range, but also can keep them safe from snipers and also give your chimera the ability to fire its 6 lasguns it has attached to its hull.
   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

Unfortunately no. Would make a lot of sense really, but no. If you take a stormtrooper detachment, you can give them radios and use their line of sight and measure distance for a CP. Gives you a buff to tactical air raid as well.


Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress






New Hampshire

bat702 wrote:
Can you use officer of the fleet ability inside a chimera? Also can you use the astral divination from astropath inside a chimera? I know you can't cast psychic powers inside a transport..

This would be useful to getting the astropath/officer of the fleet within range, but also can keep them safe from snipers and also give your chimera the ability to fire its 6 lasguns it has attached to its hull.


Command Chimera really needs to be full upgrade the way that Commissar Tank is, not just for 1 turn. It makes perfect sense for the commander to be working from his command vehicle from a game and lore perspective. I also want to field my custom M577 chimera.

"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in us
Noble Knight of the Realm






Felt really sad, MD Open last weekend had 110 players, only 3-4 were Guard, and one was used more for for a Knight list.

"Don't Feed the Troll" 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





C'est la vie. We aren't a power army atm, so we're not getting brought by the FotM crowd. Personally, I'm fine with that, though it does drastically reduce our capacity for tactica due to not having that many people to test with.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Mass infantry guard seems to do pretty well if you play to the objectives and less so to killing the enemy. I don't know of too many people tho willing to paint 200 guardsmen and also deploy and move them around in a game.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




bat702 wrote:
Mass infantry guard seems to do pretty well if you play to the objectives and less so to killing the enemy. I don't know of too many people tho willing to paint 200 guardsmen and also deploy and move them around in a game.


I've played a few games with it and it can be very effective for primary points. Both getting and denying. Secondaries can be an issue. Raise the Banners and Domination are best picks, the 3rd is always a difficult choice. Really depends on the mission and the opponent.

The next challenge is deployment. It can be very difficult to fit that many models into a deployment zone. Especially if you're playing with the required amount of terrain. It then gets very CP intensive to keep units in Strategic Reserves, not that you'd be spending much CP on pure infantry anyway.

The last challenge is time. If you're playing with chess clocks it can be incredibly demanding to move that many models and roll that many dice.

These 3 reasons are actually why I keep suggesting someone try playing pure Infantry Scions. It pretty much solves all of the issues. Scions open up tons of additional secondary options. They also solve the deployment issue because half the army can be put into reserves for free.

Also, this isn't factoring the cost of building that army, the time it takes to assemble and paint that army, then the effort of transporting that much miniatures safely.

   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

Jarms48 wrote:
bat702 wrote:
Mass infantry guard seems to do pretty well if you play to the objectives and less so to killing the enemy. I don't know of too many people tho willing to paint 200 guardsmen and also deploy and move them around in a game.


I've played a few games with it and it can be very effective for primary points. Both getting and denying. Secondaries can be an issue. Raise the Banners and Domination are best picks, the 3rd is always a difficult choice. Really depends on the mission and the opponent.

The next challenge is deployment. It can be very difficult to fit that many models into a deployment zone. Especially if you're playing with the required amount of terrain. It then gets very CP intensive to keep units in Strategic Reserves, not that you'd be spending much CP on pure infantry anyway.

The last challenge is time. If you're playing with chess clocks it can be incredibly demanding to move that many models and roll that many dice.

These 3 reasons are actually why I keep suggesting someone try playing pure Infantry Scions. It pretty much solves all of the issues. Scions open up tons of additional secondary options. They also solve the deployment issue because half the army can be put into reserves for free.

Also, this isn't factoring the cost of building that army, the time it takes to assemble and paint that army, then the effort of transporting that much miniatures safely.



I think pure infantry scions would be quite competitive, I just don't think the models are good enough that I'd enough painting close to 200 of them.

Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Salted Diamond wrote:
bat702 wrote:
Can you use officer of the fleet ability inside a chimera? Also can you use the astral divination from astropath inside a chimera? I know you can't cast psychic powers inside a transport..

This would be useful to getting the astropath/officer of the fleet within range, but also can keep them safe from snipers and also give your chimera the ability to fire its 6 lasguns it has attached to its hull.


Command Chimera really needs to be full upgrade the way that Commissar Tank is, not just for 1 turn. It makes perfect sense for the commander to be working from his command vehicle from a game and lore perspective. I also want to field my custom M577 chimera.

It just needs to be restored to what it was, period.
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress






New Hampshire

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Salted Diamond wrote:
bat702 wrote:
Can you use officer of the fleet ability inside a chimera? Also can you use the astral divination from astropath inside a chimera? I know you can't cast psychic powers inside a transport..

This would be useful to getting the astropath/officer of the fleet within range, but also can keep them safe from snipers and also give your chimera the ability to fire its 6 lasguns it has attached to its hull.


Command Chimera really needs to be full upgrade the way that Commissar Tank is, not just for 1 turn. It makes perfect sense for the commander to be working from his command vehicle from a game and lore perspective. I also want to field my custom M577 chimera.

It just needs to be restored to what it was, period.

While I would prefer it to be part of it, I feel making it a CP permanent upgrade the way Commissar tanks works if more likely

"Elysians: For when you absolutely, positively, must have 100% casualties" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Problem is fragility. Your tanks just pop against deldar for example. Or marine dreadnaught plasma inferno spam. Or an enemy gaurd player first turn. We need some strategem like the tank in front pops smoke and is the only rank they may target till its killled... Openninh the door to defensive buffs and cover stacking a minus to hit. Would be cool.

Guard gaurd gAAAARDity Gaurd gaurd.  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 Kanluwen wrote:

It just needs to be restored to what it was, period.


You keep saying this, I've played Guard since 3rd edition. What exactly do you want restored?

- Legends units? Such as Salamander Scouts and Rough Riders?
- 3.5 doctrines and upgrades for points? Such as Carapace armour?

You keep saying this current codex is terrible, but you don't say why and how to fix it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/20 22:59:57


 
   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

Rough riders back would be sweeeeeet.

Give me Tallarn horsie boys and I will buy them.

Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Scions lists are good but I dont recommend going all infantry, I feel 9 pts per model is built in a cost for its ability to deepstrike, if they were 8 pts per model then yes I can see all infantry.

That being said, Taurox prime with lamba lions to give their gattling cannon ap-1 is great, also Valkyries are actually pretty decent for their point costs. Lastly taking a giant blob of bullgryns with mauls and slabshields is almost a must.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




bat702 wrote:
Scions lists are good but I dont recommend going all infantry, I feel 9 pts per model is built in a cost for its ability to deepstrike, if they were 8 pts per model then yes I can see all infantry.

That being said, Taurox prime with lamba lions to give their gattling cannon ap-1 is great, also Valkyries are actually pretty decent for their point costs. Lastly taking a giant blob of bullgryns with mauls and slabshields is almost a must.


I mean, compare a 9 point Scion to a 6.5 point Veteran. The Scion gets carapace armour, a hot-shot lasgun, krak grenades, their Tempestor gets WS3+ compared to the Veteran Sergeants WS4+, more stratagems, better regiment traits, better relics and warlord traits, less lasgun tax for special weapons, Obsec, and the option to deep strike/enter reserves for free.

It's actually a huge for only a 2.5 point difference (or 3.5 points more over a regular Guardsmen).

You can take 180 Scions, 3 Primes, and 3 Lord Commissars for 1860 points and 6 CP. Then you have 140 points for upgrades.

Other things you have to remember are:
- Scions can still benefit from Light Cover, so they can actually get 3+ saves. 2+ saves if you stack the Take Cover stratagem with it, and +1 with an Astropath.
- The Lions Trait works on everything. AP-1 Frag grenades, AP-1 Melee attacks, AP-2 Krak grenades, etc. Stack the better grenades with the Grenadiers stratagem and you'll have a fun time.
- The Lions relic allows you to stack rerolls of 1's to Hit and an Order. Only for units within 6 inch of the relic holder, but that's pretty powerful.

You could also cut some of those Scion squads to 5 men. Each cut saves 45 points for more special weapons. Those 5 men squads could be purely used for deep striking secondaries or suicide special weapon squads.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/21 00:31:19


 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Jarms48 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

It just needs to be restored to what it was, period.


You keep saying this, I've played Guard since 3rd edition. What exactly do you want restored?

- Legends units? Such as Salamander Scouts and Rough Riders?
- 3.5 doctrines and upgrades for points? Such as Carapace armour?

You keep saying this current codex is terrible, but you don't say why and how to fix it.

IIRC, that was in response to Chimeras losing the Command Vehicle special rule in place of making it a Stratagem - presumably, "restored to what it was" then means "restored to being a special rule all Chimeras get rather than one Chimera per turn for CP".
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 waefre_1 wrote:

IIRC, that was in response to Chimeras losing the Command Vehicle special rule in place of making it a Stratagem - presumably, "restored to what it was" then means "restored to being a special rule all Chimeras get rather than one Chimera per turn for CP".


I don't want to see the rule simply added to the Chimera. It'll lead to a point tax for the added ability knowing GW. I don't want to pay 5 - 10 extra points for every Chimera if I'm only going to use a portion of them for my Officers.

I'd rather see it simply become an upgrade for a Chimera/Taurox. Things like:
- Mobile Command Vehicle: Officer can issue orders when embarked and count as being in range of a voxcaster.
- Medicae Vehicle: Can bring back one slain model or heal one model D3 wounds, and has a 6 inch 6+++ aura.
- Artillery Command Vehicle: An embarked Master of Ordinance can issue a single Tank Order to Artillery units, in addition measure from the vehicles hull when determining the aura for Master of Ballistics and Artillery Bombardment.

Make each of these 10 points. That way you can still have the option for cheap transports, but can also make them specialised if you want to.

Each of those could be a 10 point upgrade to any Astra Militarum transport. That way even Scions could use it for their Primes (except for the Artillery one of course).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/21 04:05:13


 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





If I was to run scions and guard in the same army, do you think it's better to separate the two into detachments to access the Scion tactics etc?

I figure it depends on how heavily I'm leaning into Scions to determine the value but I was wondering what people's thoughts were.

Essentially at what point do you think the Scion tactics are worth the 3CP cost to take a second detachment? What if I was just running 3 MSU of Scions to fill troop tax?

   
Made in ca
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge



Canada

The main circumstance when I could see Stormtroopers in a armoured guard detachment for troop tax would be if you want to run, say, Manticores, hydras, and heavy weapons teams.

If you're going hard into Russ variants and not taking any troops/ taking just 15 men as troops, you'll probably want those Russes with objective secured; so run in a spearhead.

Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250  
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Oh that's true, I forgot about the obsec advantage of a spearhead detachment.

   
 
Forum Index » 40K Tactics
Go to: