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 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Rerolling 1's on a BS4 model is worse than rerolling everything on a BS3 model.

Its not about the power level of the specific units, its about the number of dice rolled.
And yet, you just included BS4 vs BS3. I'm the one saying if it's REALLY about the rerolls, it doesn't matter what the BS is. I'm not even saying 100 Firewarrior shots are as good or not as good or in any way relevant to the comparison other than how many there are, because someone else drew that line in the sand.

100 shots of markerlight supported Fire Warrior is : 100 dice + 17 rerolls, netting you 58 hits. Total dice rolled : (100 + 17 +58) 175

100 shots of CM + lieutenant aggressors is : 100 dice + 33 rerolls, netting you 88 hits. Then you have 14 more dice to roll for the lieutenant reroll. Total dice rolled : (100 + 33 + 88 + 14) 235

And the rerolls from the Fire Warrior isnt "always on".


Neither are the rerolls for the Aggressors.

You want to say Aggressors are bad, and all marines should be nerfed, that's your right. I'll disagree. You want to say it's not-anti Marine salt but because of Rerolls that can be equally available in other factions you're not calling to nerf, I'm going to point that out.

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Breton wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Rerolling 1's on a BS4 model is worse than rerolling everything on a BS3 model.

Its not about the power level of the specific units, its about the number of dice rolled.
And yet, you just included BS4 vs BS3. I'm the one saying if it's REALLY about the rerolls, it doesn't matter what the BS is. I'm not even saying 100 Firewarrior shots are as good or not as good or in any way relevant to the comparison other than how many there are, because someone else drew that line in the sand.

100 shots of markerlight supported Fire Warrior is : 100 dice + 17 rerolls, netting you 58 hits. Total dice rolled : (100 + 17 +58) 175

100 shots of CM + lieutenant aggressors is : 100 dice + 33 rerolls, netting you 88 hits. Then you have 14 more dice to roll for the lieutenant reroll. Total dice rolled : (100 + 33 + 88 + 14) 235

And the rerolls from the Fire Warrior isnt "always on".


Neither are the rerolls for the Aggressors.

You want to say Aggressors are bad, and all marines should be nerfed, that's your right. I'll disagree. You want to say it's not-anti Marine salt but because of Rerolls that can be equally available in other factions you're not calling to nerf, I'm going to point that out.


I include the BS because BS3 means more hits, which means more dice to roll in the end.




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Breton wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Also WTAF are you on with your firewarrior maths.

270 points gets you 30 Fire warriors thats at most 60 shots in rapid fire range.
That 130 is actually an 85 point Captain who can buff everything in a 14 inch diameter circle and only gets you 28 additional shots in rapid fire range.

Marketlight is 5 points and realistically you need 2 due to needing to hit with it on a 4+, but the due shooting the markerlight can't shoot anything else.so your back down to 84 shots. At 1 target.

But please continue with your Example that Firewarriors out shoot Agressors
So we're tailoring this only one way? Or would that Captain get some Beat Stick Upgrades? Especially while he's running around with Fist Aggressors? Now from what I understand Fire Warriors are about Try 9PPM7ppm. 424-10 =414/9 = 46-2 as can't shoot markerlight and pulse rifle 44x2 =88400/7 = 57.14 57x2 =114. 56x2=112. 55 if you want your two marker lights when only one has to hit to give the rerolls and we're talking about CAN happen AS INITIALLY RAISED is still 110. Assuming you're right and they're closer to 9, 5 Firewarriors and a Smart Missle Drone now your just making units up as no such unit exsistsis about 60 points for 14 shots, you'll get 6.667 for 400, and hit 93 which is pretty close to that 100+ And once again the issue AS RAISED was NUMBER OF POTENTIALLY REROLLED SHOTS not whether Unit A can outshoot Unit B.


So 424 points of FW gets you 88 S5 Ap0 15 inch shots rerolling 1's to hit. The fire warriors only get 2 shots at 15 inches
Compared to the 110 18" shots?

420 points gets you Captain +Lt plus 6 Agressors who get 114 S4 Ap-1 shots on avarage. Reolling 1's to hit and 1's to wound. (Not including the Captain or LT shooting.

That's not exactly going to workout in anyway but in favour of marines but lets shoot Orks to make it as favourable to the marines as possible.

FW 44 hits plus 7.33 after rerolling 1's.
33.2 wounds and 28.51 Failed Saves.

Agressors only 76 hits plus 12.67 after reroll 1's
44.3 wounds plus 7.39 after reroll 1's with no saves allowed is 51.72 wounds

51.72/28.51 aka Agressors are 1.81 times as efficent as FW but sure please explain how they would be useless if they were nerfed.

How many of those Firewarrior shots are rerollable? Because again, the issue as raised isn't nerf Aggressors because I hate marines, it's nerf rerolls because they slow the game down. For 5 points the entire Tau Army gets to reroll 1's at that unit. For 10 points they get to do it pretty reliably.

I just grabbed my typical list from 8E which sadly needs to get reworked with the new points costs as it's now 60points too much - I've got 55 non character bodies, 3 character bodies in 7 non-character units. 14 marker lights for 70 points lets you reroll 1's against my entire non-character army with the entirely Tau army reliably. Obviously it would be better to focus fire only some of those units with more marker-light bonuses but that isn't the point. The point is how many attacks can be rerolled or add-rolled.

I'm calling you out for misrepresentation as this is the third of forth time a marine player has used made up stats and points to prove oh look marines are fine this Tau unit is way more OP and frankly the attitude and the blatant disregard for facts even when confronted about them is dismised as "well it's just an example" it's a deliberate attempt to lie and mislead other posters.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/23 18:08:16


 
   
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Um, why are you correcting the 7/9 ppm thing about half a sentence before I did it myself?

I'm sorry instead of Smart Missle Drone, I meant DS8 Tactical Support Turret with a Smart Missile System. That wasn't close enough to understand what I meant? It's the only thing in the unit that can take a Smart Missile?

As for your 15 inches vs 18 inches.. could you elaborate? 15" and 18" isn't very different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:


I include the BS because BS3 means more hits, which means more dice to roll in the end.


Tell you what, make me a list. Make me a list that can Take All Comers. And doesn't use Captains, Lieutenants, Aggressors, Eradicators or Dakka Inceptors. Don't use any unit that gets more than 1 shot per 10 points. If you want, take the Cap/LT, we just not use the reroll rules. I'll be interested to see that. And don't worry I won't accuse you of making something up if you say drone instead of turret or something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 18:19:06


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Breton wrote:
Um, why are you correcting the 7/9 ppm thing about half a sentence before I did it myself?

I'm sorry instead of Smart Missle Drone, I meant DS8 Tactical Support Turret with a Smart Missile System. That wasn't close enough to understand what I meant? It's the only thing in the unit that can take a Smart Missile?

As for your 15 inches vs 18 inches.. could you elaborate? 15" and 18" isn't very different.

Because you know what the dang difference is the marines with their 110 shots at 18 inches have more shots more range more hits, more wounds and MORE rerolls for the less points

Also the unit doesnt actually prove your point so your now going to make it 6 units as you dont have more than 6 troops and they are now taking non mobile destroyed if the unit moves wargear into account.

And shielded missle drones do exsist they just are riptide only wargear. And I have been told by other marine posters Fire warriora can take burst cannons so I assume nothing at this point.

The mental gymnastics here is truly epic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/23 18:23:20


 
   
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Breton wrote:


Tell you what, make me a list. Make me a list that can Take All Comers. And doesn't use Captains, Lieutenants, Aggressors, Eradicators or Dakka Inceptors. Don't use any unit that gets more than 1 shot per 10 points. If you want, take the Cap/LT, we just not use the reroll rules. I'll be interested to see that. And don't worry I won't accuse you of making something up if you say drone instead of turret or something.


Why should i? What would it prove to you?

We're agreeing about rerolls being the source of the problem btw, unless you're being sarcastic.

The whole aggressor thing just exacerbates the issue with the sheer volume of fire they bring.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 18:31:03


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Id be in favor of them just getting rid of re-rolls (aside from CP) as a whole tbh.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
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32 pages? Ok be honest how many pages is actually about Eradicators

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 20:58:53


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Most of it is Breton shifting goalposts and making unrealistic scenarios to support his agruements

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
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Because everyone is mad about how lately Marines are the Eldar from 2nd edition, where they were the most powerful codex. With things like how a Shuriken Catapult was better than a Storm Bolter, and could be in the hands of every Guardian.

Marines are literally getting ALL the toys.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/23 21:09:22




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 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because everyone is mad about how lately Marines are the Eldar from 2nd edition, where they were the most powerful codex. With things like how a Shuriken Catapult was better than a Storm Bolter, and could be in the hands of every Guardian.

Marines are literally getting ALL the toys.


it's mostly the eldar fans annoyed Marines are more powerful then them. thats not fair! marines are supposed to be the noob army that they can seal club!

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because everyone is mad about how lately Marines are the Eldar from 2nd edition, where they were the most powerful codex. With things like how a Shuriken Catapult was better than a Storm Bolter, and could be in the hands of every Guardian.

Marines are literally getting ALL the toys.


it's mostly the eldar fans annoyed Marines are more powerful then them. thats not fair! marines are supposed to be the noob army that they can seal club!


any non-eldar players want to take this one ?
Coz I was going to start a nid army.. but .. whel...

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because everyone is mad about how lately Marines are the Eldar from 2nd edition, where they were the most powerful codex. With things like how a Shuriken Catapult was better than a Storm Bolter, and could be in the hands of every Guardian.

Marines are literally getting ALL the toys.



Wow, that's going back a while. Shuriken catapults actually being usable. How many years ago was that, 25?

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 Billagio wrote:
Id be in favor of them just getting rid of re-rolls (aside from CP) as a whole tbh.

Agreed, rerolls are are annoying, even when they aren't effective. I once had an opponent fire a six man squad of aggressors into my Fellblade that was currently rocking a -1 to be hit with full rerolls from a chapter master and lieutenant. After a couple hundred dice the result was like, four wounds. I don't know if that was "statistical", but I do know it was a waste of both of our time.
   
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 Argive wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because everyone is mad about how lately Marines are the Eldar from 2nd edition, where they were the most powerful codex. With things like how a Shuriken Catapult was better than a Storm Bolter, and could be in the hands of every Guardian.

Marines are literally getting ALL the toys.


it's mostly the eldar fans annoyed Marines are more powerful then them. thats not fair! marines are supposed to be the noob army that they can seal club!


any non-eldar players want to take this one ?
Coz I was going to start a nid army.. but .. whel...


No, sorry. If you play Eldar then YOU are at fault for everything that is wrong in the game of 40k. You have the audacity to play an army that was strong once 25 years ago, and since then has mostly survived on gimmick lists and rules loopholes because the bulk of your codex has been garbage. How dare you even exist.

I would say /s but this is literally the general feeling on Dakka. It's better to just say you play 'xenos' and don't get specific, as all the xenos armies are in the same boat of being underpowered and underdeveloped.

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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Billagio wrote:
Id be in favor of them just getting rid of re-rolls (aside from CP) as a whole tbh.

Agreed, rerolls are are annoying, even when they aren't effective. I once had an opponent fire a six man squad of aggressors into my Fellblade that was currently rocking a -1 to be hit with full rerolls from a chapter master and lieutenant. After a couple hundred dice the result was like, four wounds. I don't know if that was "statistical", but I do know it was a waste of both of our time.


the only reason i have rerolls in my night lords is because the chaos lord is the only guy with 4 attacks that can also use a power sword (flayer) and have a jumppack.

Give Exalted champion a jetpack too GW !!!!

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BrianDavion wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because everyone is mad about how lately Marines are the Eldar from 2nd edition, where they were the most powerful codex. With things like how a Shuriken Catapult was better than a Storm Bolter, and could be in the hands of every Guardian.

Marines are literally getting ALL the toys.


it's mostly the eldar fans annoyed Marines are more powerful then them. thats not fair! marines are supposed to be the noob army that they can seal club!

The only players clubbing seals through to dang grizzly bears (the most powerful lists certain codex's can bring) are marine players .

Eldar were annoying at competitive lists but you know what they could and did do, tone down the cheese, marines are chedder wrapped in brie dipped in mozzarella fondue the amount of cheese GW rammed in their between codex suppliments and Psychic Awakening.

You can litterly throw darts at the all the pages of that book on a wall and still get a casual/semicomp RTT level viable list.

But at this rate I'm sure some Marine player will apear on his white charger and enamel armour to defend GW and Marine players honer
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Billagio wrote:
Id be in favor of them just getting rid of re-rolls (aside from CP) as a whole tbh.

Agreed, rerolls are are annoying, even when they aren't effective. I once had an opponent fire a six man squad of aggressors into my Fellblade that was currently rocking a -1 to be hit with full rerolls from a chapter master and lieutenant. After a couple hundred dice the result was like, four wounds. I don't know if that was "statistical", but I do know it was a waste of both of our time.


the only reason i have rerolls in my night lords is because the chaos lord is the only guy with 4 attacks that can also use a power sword (flayer) and have a jumppack.

Give Exalted champion a jetpack too GW !!!!

Exalted Champs and Apostles aren't allowed those because Jump Packs are for COWARDS that won't run at the enemy. So yes, any Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack is a COWARD.

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 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Billagio wrote:
Id be in favor of them just getting rid of re-rolls (aside from CP) as a whole tbh.

Agreed, rerolls are are annoying, even when they aren't effective. I once had an opponent fire a six man squad of aggressors into my Fellblade that was currently rocking a -1 to be hit with full rerolls from a chapter master and lieutenant. After a couple hundred dice the result was like, four wounds. I don't know if that was "statistical", but I do know it was a waste of both of our time.

"Nuh uhhh marines without rerolls of their rerolls would totally be like unplayably underpowered and like totally over costed brah, trust me, know eradicators arnt overpowered I run 6 of them in every game and they always die bro. But I still win my games because I'm a G and like all you NPC player just need to Learn to Play Bruh."
   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Billagio wrote:
Id be in favor of them just getting rid of re-rolls (aside from CP) as a whole tbh.

Agreed, rerolls are are annoying, even when they aren't effective. I once had an opponent fire a six man squad of aggressors into my Fellblade that was currently rocking a -1 to be hit with full rerolls from a chapter master and lieutenant. After a couple hundred dice the result was like, four wounds. I don't know if that was "statistical", but I do know it was a waste of both of our time.


100%. Even watching batreps where they cut out most of the bs it still pretty unsatisfying to see a roll and then "oh wait ive got rerolls lol" every. single. roll

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for what it's worth I'd be fine with them dropping re-rolls from the game myself. I like the idea of auras in that it makes a commander feel like a commander rather then a high point beat stick, but they could easily replicate THAT by a number of ways.

1: giving every army their own form of orders ala Guard (seriously are we supposed to belive Guard commanders are the only ones shouting orders at their troops?)
2: Requiring a HQ to be present and make a LDR role to use a stratigum
3: having the +1 CP each turn be dependant on the presence of a captain or equivilant. (this is similer to how kill team does it)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/23 22:54:00


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BrianDavion wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because everyone is mad about how lately Marines are the Eldar from 2nd edition, where they were the most powerful codex. With things like how a Shuriken Catapult was better than a Storm Bolter, and could be in the hands of every Guardian.

Marines are literally getting ALL the toys.


it's mostly the eldar fans annoyed Marines are more powerful then them. thats not fair! marines are supposed to be the noob army that they can seal club!
And Tyranid fans, and Ork fans, and Tau fans, and Necron fans. . .

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Breton wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Breton wrote:


Would you prefer to see all the Marine attacks go up a notch? Assault 6 goes to Assault 7 or 8 to make up for the lost rerolls? Rapid Fire 1 to Rapid Fire 2, and so on?


No, i'd like them to not have as many rerolls. Theyre already good even without them because of their higher rate of fire, strength and AP.


So you want them to get worse. Again, is your problem rerolls or Marines? We get rid of the rerolls, and just give them extra shots to make up for the lost value, and you don’t like that either, so it feels like rerolls is the excuse to nerf Marines.


It seems one persons "worse" is the majority's "Balanced" - again, same with Eradicators


Can we stop complaining about Eradicators being too strong. The codex is not even out yet. It is index 40k. Yes - they cost too little at present. It is undeniable. 2 melta shots for 40 points is insane. 1 for 40 points is pretty bad though. This antimarine sentiment is outrageous. Almost as outrageous as how bad marines were in 8th eddition before they got a real codex. 40% WR in competitive for 2 consecutive years. Where was the outrage then?

So many logic mistakes in this post I don't know where to start.

1. Space Marine win rates are always dragged down by virtue of being the "starter" faction that has the lowest level playerbase. Even when Space Marines are top 1 in the game we see this.

2. Win rates are an awful measure of anything in the first place.

3. An overpowered faction unbalances the entire game. An underpowered faction just unbalances one army.

4. Even with that, SM being weak was one the most whined about things I've ever seen. Seriously, it affected one portion of the playerbase and you guys still managed to outwhine the entire rest of the playerbase when the roles are reversed.
   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ahhhh tyranids were wonderfully good for a chunk of 8th. I sorta don't even wanna unpack mine right now...


Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that flying Hive Tyrants were wonderfully good? From what I gathered a lot of the Tyranid options were just left at home as flyrants were flat out more cost effective than pretty much any other option (same issue as Tau commanders, basically)

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 Nitro Zeus wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Breton wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Breton wrote:


Would you prefer to see all the Marine attacks go up a notch? Assault 6 goes to Assault 7 or 8 to make up for the lost rerolls? Rapid Fire 1 to Rapid Fire 2, and so on?


No, i'd like them to not have as many rerolls. Theyre already good even without them because of their higher rate of fire, strength and AP.


So you want them to get worse. Again, is your problem rerolls or Marines? We get rid of the rerolls, and just give them extra shots to make up for the lost value, and you don’t like that either, so it feels like rerolls is the excuse to nerf Marines.


It seems one persons "worse" is the majority's "Balanced" - again, same with Eradicators


Can we stop complaining about Eradicators being too strong. The codex is not even out yet. It is index 40k. Yes - they cost too little at present. It is undeniable. 2 melta shots for 40 points is insane. 1 for 40 points is pretty bad though. This antimarine sentiment is outrageous. Almost as outrageous as how bad marines were in 8th eddition before they got a real codex. 40% WR in competitive for 2 consecutive years. Where was the outrage then?

So many logic mistakes in this post I don't know where to start.

1. Space Marine win rates are always dragged down by virtue of being the "starter" faction that has the lowest level playerbase. Even when Space Marines are top 1 in the game we see this.



yes because we all know people buy a starter set and immediatly enroll in a major tourny.

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BrianDavion wrote:

yes because we all know people buy a starter set and immediatly enroll in a major tourny.



You say it as a joke, but since the Marines dex came out the following tournaments were flooded with relative "unknowns" getting high placements ahead of seasoned pros. Goonhammer mentioned it fairly often (they still talk about it now, as things have only settled down slightly after nerfs to the biggest offenders).

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BrianDavion wrote:

yes because we all know people buy a starter set and immediatly enroll in a major tourny.
Lots of people go to tourneys for the yuks. Tourneys are big community events that many people enjoy. Not everybody that goes is a top tier competetive player.

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Yeah, I've been to a fair few tourneys that had players who clearly just brought whatever they had at hand. Odd little mixtures of odds and ends. Nothing wrong with it at all, as long as they're having fun and understand theres a change some of their games may be massively one sided.
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Breton wrote:


Tell you what, make me a list. Make me a list that can Take All Comers. And doesn't use Captains, Lieutenants, Aggressors, Eradicators or Dakka Inceptors. Don't use any unit that gets more than 1 shot per 10 points. If you want, take the Cap/LT, we just not use the reroll rules. I'll be interested to see that. And don't worry I won't accuse you of making something up if you say drone instead of turret or something.


Why should i? What would it prove to you?
If it’s broken as you say, there should be an alternative that works. My brain doesn’t work the way everyone else’s does some things obvious to me aren’t to others, some things obvious to others are a mystery to me. So show me what I’m missing. Show me how a TAC Marine list deals with 250-350 models this game and 4 knights the next game without things like Aggressors, Inceptors, Eradicators, sideboards, or list tailoring.

We're agreeing about rerolls being the source of the problem btw, unless you're being sarcastic.
Um, neither. I’m not being sarcastic, and I don’t think rerolls/high volume of fire are exactly a problem. The same system that can allow Army A to take 45 minutes on movement will necessarily have to allow Army B to take 45 minutes to shoot at Army A. Complaining 30 minutes are spent on this unit, and 15 on these other 6 units, vs 5 minutes each on 9 units is really just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titianic.

The whole aggressor thing just exacerbates the issue with the sheer volume of fire they bring.

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