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Iracundus wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Iracundus wrote:


A single 4++ for T3 W1 doesn't really cut it, let alone making it a psychic power so in effect it is a conditional 4++, and then so many armies now have various anti-psyker abilities or effects. Eldar should not be dependent on Warlock babysitting to function. Warlocks should be augmenting, sure, but whatever the unit it should still have some function it can perform without mandating a Warlock being present.



Well, I don't know that I'd want Guardians to be mind-bendingly tough to begin with. A 4++ on a big blob of 20 is not bad, especially if you expend some more resources to buff them and you're not limited to only upgrading 1 unit that way. Then again, I don't think it's very fluffy for Eldar (outside of Ulthwe I guess) to be fielding units of 20 Guardians, so I do get where you're coming from.


Other Craftworlds do field formations of Guardians. They just aren't a permanent standing army like Ulthwe's. Epic 2nd edition had Guardian Defender Hosts and they were composed of Guardians. In the same way, Saim-hann is well known for its Wild Riders and Wind Rider Hosts but other Craftworlds also field Wind Rider Hosts.

Anyway, the point is other armies have multiple layers of defenses or simply many bodies. Eldar with T3 and W1 only really have their save and any to-hit penalties. That's the mechanics problem because that single layer of save is not enough to keep them alive. Guardian troops are also currently lacking in much of a role. In a GEQ environment maybe, but in an MEQ environment they are useless and at most just ablative Wounds, which is not a fluffy way to go about Eldar.


I don't disagree with that, but I think my point was just that you can have the dying race trope, or the hordes of citizen militia playstyle, not both. 20 models in a unit is pretty much reserved for things that mob up in 40k, and that doesn't make a ton of sense if every Eldar life is a precious commodity. I have no issue with war hosts with tons of Guardians, but I think it makes more sense as MSU, a mob just implies expendability to me.
   
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Iracundus wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
TBH, there is really no direct way to get around the T3 W1 mediocre save of Eldar. They are fragile and should retain that ability. Technology and psychics need to make the difference.
I still feel that warlocks should be an inherent upgrade to Guardians, and their powers should either make that unit more offensive or defensive. I've mentioned this far earlier in the thread but I'd like to see guardian squads (including windriders) be led by warlocks who can choose between powers that increase durability or offensive capability.
For example, a "battle" warlock knows each of the following powers..
Celestial Shield..grants his unit 4++ until next psychic phase.
Hail of Doom...increase range of shuricats by 6" and become Ap-1 until next psychic phase.
etc...
each power buffs his/her unit only.

Then you can have other warlocks be in conclaves (no more individual warlocks). These warlocks can cast Runes of battle on other units.

Wraith infantry are fine as is. T6 with 3W and 3+ save is plenty durable.

Aspects need to be super specialized in their role, and let's be honest, most need a transport to be protected.
I certainly feel that it's in the Aspect Warriors that GW should apply the most thought regarding rules. This is especially true if they plan to produce more plastic aspects (which I would be willing to bet hard cash on them doing...per the short stories that came out in PA)


A single 4++ for T3 W1 doesn't really cut it, let alone making it a psychic power so in effect it is a conditional 4++, and then so many armies now have various anti-psyker abilities or effects. Eldar should not be dependent on Warlock babysitting to function. Warlocks should be augmenting, sure, but whatever the unit it should still have some function it can perform without mandating a Warlock being present.



??

they're Guardians...T3 W1 5+ save is pretty much spot on for them.
Now, half the number of wounds coming in on them? You think that doesn't cut it? Plus you could always use a conclave to cast Conceal on them too for a -1 to hit.

What do we think of allowing Guardian warlocks to have "litany" type powers that are activated in the Command Phase instead of true psychics? This woudl only apply to these warlocks and not farseers or warlock conclaves.

In Command Phase, a Guardian Warlock can roll to "cast" one of the powers they know (need to not use cast as it's not a power that can be countered). This goes into effect until the next Command Phase.
Each warlock knows Destructor and one other power.
Destructor allows warlock to cast a smite in psychic phase.
1. Celestial Shield...4++ to squad.
2. Hail of Doom..+6" and AP-1 to shuricats
3. Battle artisans...may shoot as normal while performing actions
etc

There are so many fun things that can be done with Eldar.....like the Miracle dice idea. Fate dice/tokens could simply be used to adjust rolls up or down by 1. Each psyker provides x amount of fate dice at start of battle, say 3 for a Farseer, 2 for each warlock conclave, 1 for each Guardian Warlock (then you could make Ulthwe Warlord Trait be something like additional +D3 fate dice at start of battle, etc).
You can use Fate dice to adjust rolls for the following..
To hit
To wound
To save
Damage
Leadership
To Advance
To cast psychic power
To cast warlock litany

yes, it steals from Sisters a little, but not exactly as you're only modifying a roll, not subbing.

Honestly, if you had a few designers given some significant time to write the Eldar codex, they could really find some creative ways to make the army unique to play.

Damn, now all i'm doing is just setting myself up for future disappointment.
   
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PenitentJake wrote:
...

As for "Many other ways to mess with an opponents die rolls," could you please point me to one ability that makes an opponent AUTOMATICALLY FAIL a roll? Because that's what you're talking about here.

Not a modifier. Not a trans human 1-3 fails. Not "I get a chance to make you fail." This is a case where these dice are only used to make enemy rolls fail, and there is no counter play.

...


You have the Necron HQ, Nemesor Zahndrekh's ability, Counter Tactics: Once per battle, when your opponent declares they will use a Stratagem during a battle round but before the Command Points are spent, this model can engage its counter tactics. If it does, your opponent cannot use that Stratagem this battle round.

Not really failing a roll... but it does directly your ability to do something you counted on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/12 16:43:04


 
   
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they're Guardians...T3 W1 5+ save is pretty much spot on for them.

absolutely. Makes sense the eldar would dress their soldiers in armor as thin as IG flak jackets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/12 20:51:12


 
   
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I want Warlocks to have one power that is always in effect, again. They're seers lost to the path of the warrior, not mini-farseers.
   
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Blastaar wrote:
I want Warlocks to have one power that is always in effect, again. They're seers lost to the path of the warrior, not mini-farseers.


Actually, no they are not lost on any path. Warlocks are former Aspect Warriors now on the Path of the Seer. They get the warlock gear from the aspect shrines and can don the psychological warrior mask because of their past experience on the Path of the Warrior.

Those lost on the Path of the Warrior are Exarchs.
   
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 bullyboy wrote:
I still feel that warlocks should be an inherent upgrade to Guardians, and their powers should either make that unit more offensive or defensive. I've mentioned this far earlier in the thread but I'd like to see guardian squads (including windriders) be led by warlocks who can choose between powers that increase durability or offensive capability.
For example, a "battle" warlock knows each of the following powers..
Celestial Shield..grants his unit 4++ until next psychic phase.
Hail of Doom...increase range of shuricats by 6" and become Ap-1 until next psychic phase.
etc...
each power buffs his/her unit only.

I too would prefer Warlocks be added to Guardian Blobs (or other Infantry) but I also greatly preferred Independent Characters to the current paradigm.

I think this is a reasonable idea, Warlocks having an always on power for the squad they're attached too. I would prefer we don't do "Warlocks give Shuriken's +6" range" since that will just be another crutch where the army is non-functional without constant psyker support. Often when it comes to Psyker enhancements, GW will treat the unit + Psyker benefit as the 'balanced' version while the unit without a psyker buff hits like a wet noodle. I'd rather GW just give good ranges to shuriken catapults than be forced to rely on a Warlock for that.

Other than that I really like the idea and hope it allows for more opportunities for Witchblades to see some action.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/12 22:22:00


 
   
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 bullyboy wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
TBH, there is really no direct way to get around the T3 W1 mediocre save of Eldar. They are fragile and should retain that ability. Technology and psychics need to make the difference.
I still feel that warlocks should be an inherent upgrade to Guardians, and their powers should either make that unit more offensive or defensive. I've mentioned this far earlier in the thread but I'd like to see guardian squads (including windriders) be led by warlocks who can choose between powers that increase durability or offensive capability.
For example, a "battle" warlock knows each of the following powers..
Celestial Shield..grants his unit 4++ until next psychic phase.
Hail of Doom...increase range of shuricats by 6" and become Ap-1 until next psychic phase.
etc...
each power buffs his/her unit only.

Then you can have other warlocks be in conclaves (no more individual warlocks). These warlocks can cast Runes of battle on other units.

Wraith infantry are fine as is. T6 with 3W and 3+ save is plenty durable.

Aspects need to be super specialized in their role, and let's be honest, most need a transport to be protected.
I certainly feel that it's in the Aspect Warriors that GW should apply the most thought regarding rules. This is especially true if they plan to produce more plastic aspects (which I would be willing to bet hard cash on them doing...per the short stories that came out in PA)


A single 4++ for T3 W1 doesn't really cut it, let alone making it a psychic power so in effect it is a conditional 4++, and then so many armies now have various anti-psyker abilities or effects. Eldar should not be dependent on Warlock babysitting to function. Warlocks should be augmenting, sure, but whatever the unit it should still have some function it can perform without mandating a Warlock being present.



??

they're Guardians...T3 W1 5+ save is pretty much spot on for them.
Now, half the number of wounds coming in on them? You think that doesn't cut it? Plus you could always use a conclave to cast Conceal on them too for a -1 to hit.

What do we think of allowing Guardian warlocks to have "litany" type powers that are activated in the Command Phase instead of true psychics? This woudl only apply to these warlocks and not farseers or warlock conclaves.

In Command Phase, a Guardian Warlock can roll to "cast" one of the powers they know (need to not use cast as it's not a power that can be countered). This goes into effect until the next Command Phase.
Each warlock knows Destructor and one other power.
Destructor allows warlock to cast a smite in psychic phase.
1. Celestial Shield...4++ to squad.
2. Hail of Doom..+6" and AP-1 to shuricats
3. Battle artisans...may shoot as normal while performing actions
etc

There are so many fun things that can be done with Eldar.....like the Miracle dice idea. Fate dice/tokens could simply be used to adjust rolls up or down by 1. Each psyker provides x amount of fate dice at start of battle, say 3 for a Farseer, 2 for each warlock conclave, 1 for each Guardian Warlock (then you could make Ulthwe Warlord Trait be something like additional +D3 fate dice at start of battle, etc).
You can use Fate dice to adjust rolls for the following..
To hit
To wound
To save
Damage
Leadership
To Advance
To cast psychic power
To cast warlock litany

yes, it steals from Sisters a little, but not exactly as you're only modifying a roll, not subbing.

Honestly, if you had a few designers given some significant time to write the Eldar codex, they could really find some creative ways to make the army unique to play.

Damn, now all i'm doing is just setting myself up for future disappointment.



modifying dice rolls is differant eneugh from mircle dice that I think it would work fine without feeling like it was treading on SOBs toes overly much as the feeling would be VERY differant. Sisters would essentially have a cache on known rolls they are sitting on. eldar would simply be a touch more reliable. . Although being able to modify damage seems like a horriable idea if you mean being able to turn a D2 weapon into a D3 adding 1 to a 1d6 roll however seems fair.
I'd make fate points something generated via a psykic power, nice easy test. if you pass you get 1 "fate point" and no once per turn limit on it. if you roll peirals rather then suffering a mortal wound per normal, instead you lose 1d3 fate points representing the fact that sometimes farseerers screw up.

I'd also add something to eldar infantry giving them defences if they advanced, making mobile warfare a little more important. which would be fitting.


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Cronch wrote:
absolutely. Makes sense the eldar would dress their soldiers in armor as thin as IG flak jackets.
I'd argue that they're not soldiers, but rather citizens militia. They're there as a last resort. The soldiers of the Eldar are the Aspect Warriors.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cronch wrote:
absolutely. Makes sense the eldar would dress their soldiers in armor as thin as IG flak jackets.
I'd argue that they're not soldiers, but rather citizens militia. They're there as a last resort. The soldiers of the Eldar are the Aspect Warriors.


Which is fine until they show up at every battle on the front line and then they're 'citizen militia' in name only and the idea that they aren't equipped and protected better is one relying entirely on a technicality rather than the practical reality.

It also doesn't jive with eldar technology - sing equipment into existence by spinning it out of warp energy. There's no practical reasons guardians couldn't be given better armour, from a logistics, strategic or cultural importance perspective - 'all eldar life is precious'.

If guardians squads were 5 men with a heavy weapon, could only be taken if you'd already taken aspects, and had a force field built into the weapon platform giving them a 3++ against ranged attacks, they'd probably fit their purpose a bit better.

Storm guardians are an odd duck and probably should be a specialist guardian unit that has a shimmer shield wielding leader or something similar.

Only black guardians could be taken in larger squads and without taking aspects first.











   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cronch wrote:
absolutely. Makes sense the eldar would dress their soldiers in armor as thin as IG flak jackets.
I'd argue that they're not soldiers, but rather citizens militia. They're there as a last resort. The soldiers of the Eldar are the Aspect Warriors.


But HBMC, they're eldar, and eldar are such special snowflakes that their MILITA should be better equipped then space marines.. no no their militas should be better equipped then CUSTODES. because eldar!

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cronch wrote:
absolutely. Makes sense the eldar would dress their soldiers in armor as thin as IG flak jackets.
I'd argue that they're not soldiers, but rather citizens militia. They're there as a last resort. The soldiers of the Eldar are the Aspect Warriors.


But HBMC, they're eldar, and eldar are such special snowflakes that their MILITA should be better equipped then space marines.. no no their militas should be better equipped then CUSTODES. because eldar!


Ha ha. Eldar are much more technologically advanced than the Imperium, and their numbers are in decline. Of course their militia would be better-equipped than many, if not all, other races' line troops.
   
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Blastaar wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cronch wrote:
absolutely. Makes sense the eldar would dress their soldiers in armor as thin as IG flak jackets.
I'd argue that they're not soldiers, but rather citizens militia. They're there as a last resort. The soldiers of the Eldar are the Aspect Warriors.


But HBMC, they're eldar, and eldar are such special snowflakes that their MILITA should be better equipped then space marines.. no no their militas should be better equipped then CUSTODES. because eldar!


Ha ha. Eldar are much more technologically advanced than the Imperium, and their numbers are in decline. Of course their militia would be better-equipped than many, if not all, other races' line troops.


And guess what..
THEY ARE

A space Marine isn't an Imperial line troop.

A GUARDSMAN IS AN IMPERIAL LINE TROOP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 03:51:09


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In My Lab

And the Eldar are arguably worse-equipped.

They have half the range and the same save. Sure, S4 instead of S3, and AP-3 on 6s to-wound... But at their fragile butts, that range is killer.

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BrianDavion wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cronch wrote:
absolutely. Makes sense the eldar would dress their soldiers in armor as thin as IG flak jackets.
I'd argue that they're not soldiers, but rather citizens militia. They're there as a last resort. The soldiers of the Eldar are the Aspect Warriors.


But HBMC, they're eldar, and eldar are such special snowflakes that their MILITA should be better equipped then space marines.. no no their militas should be better equipped then CUSTODES. because eldar!


Ha ha. Eldar are much more technologically advanced than the Imperium, and their numbers are in decline. Of course their militia would be better-equipped than many, if not all, other races' line troops.


And guess what..
THEY ARE

A space Marine isn't an Imperial line troop.

A GUARDSMAN IS AN IMPERIAL LINE TROOP.


A space marine is the line troop of......... space marines. Army factions, not lore factions. You don't need to be angry, either, dude.

JNAProductions wrote:And the Eldar are arguably worse-equipped.

They have half the range and the same save. Sure, S4 instead of S3, and AP-3 on 6s to-wound... But at their fragile butts, that range is killer.


Totally. Eldar are not represented well in their rules. At all. The core rules are partly to blame- guerrilla tactics aren't really possible without AA at minimum.
   
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That's a problem with the degradation of the Shuriken Catapult as a weapon that once out-shot Storm Bolters.

I'm all for fixing the ShuriCat. Making Eldar, especially Guardians, tougher though? No.

Speed is their defence. The fact that GW decided to make positioning and manoeuvre less important as the editions wore on, and outright removed Initiative as a stat, does not mean that Eldar should have stats rivalling Nobz in an effort to compensate for what they've lost.

I should also point out an error I made earlier: Guardians are citizens militia except for Ulthwe, where they are treated like a proper army.

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Blastaar wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

But HBMC, they're eldar, and eldar are such special snowflakes that their MILITA should be better equipped then space marines.. no no their militas should be better equipped then CUSTODES. because eldar!


Ha ha. Eldar are much more technologically advanced than the Imperium, and their numbers are in decline. Of course their militia would be better-equipped than many, if not all, other races' line troops.

I mean, yes actually. Guardians with relatively poor training (I'd like them to go back to hitting on 4+) but being equipped with tech that puts a guardsman's kit to shame seems like it would be extremely fluffy for eldar. Where aspect warriors are better trained but forced (for psychological reasons) to use highly-specific gear, guardians can be less well trained but better equipped; really showing off some of the eldars' advanced tech.

I'd love for guardians to be something like...
* WS/BS 4+.
* 4+ armour
* Squad size 5-15.
* Gain a lasblaster option and/or up the range of catapults to 18" and/or make catapults rapidfire 2.
* 1 heavy weapon platform per 5 dudes.
---Platform can be given either a targeting visor (+1 to-hit with the platform's gun) OR a celestial shield (4+ invuln for the squad)
---Platforms probably go back to being gun markers rather than models with wounds and a toughness value; no more tanking shots on the gun itself.
* Squad can be joined by a warlock with one of the following always-on buffs:
---Conceal: -1 to being hit vs ranged attacks.
---Quicken: Always auto-advance 6" instead of rolling. Can overwatch without using a stratagem.
---Enhance: The squad becomes WS/BS 3+. (Meaning your heavy weapons potentially hit on 2+ with a targeting visor).
---* Squadlock can be upgraded to have EITHER a singing spear OR a "Destructor" (which is basically an Assault version of a heavy flamer).

Storm guardians could, I think, stay at WS/BS 3+. Inkeeping with the Ulthwe fluff, these guys aren't normal guardians; they're basically guardian veterans that you can trust to pull off more dangerous missions with more specialized gear when you still don't have enough aspect warriors around. Some possible tech upgrades for them:
* Give them some sort of melee explosive like oldschool meltabombs or vibro mines that are effective against vehicles.
* Give them a variant holo-field that replays the last few moments of movement in the surrounding area causing making them untargetable from more than 9" away if they began the turn within engagement range of an enemy unit. (The holograms make gunmen think the stormies are still in combat with their allies.)
* Let them deploy smart mine tokens that do mortal wounds to enemy units within X" unless an enemy unit spends their shooting phase performing an action to destroy the mines.

Oh, and lower the squad size to minimum 5 and let them take 2 special guns per 5 dudes so that they're not super awkward to put into a wave serpent.
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
And the Eldar are arguably worse-equipped.

They have half the range and the same save. Sure, S4 instead of S3, and AP-3 on 6s to-wound... But at their fragile butts, that range is killer.


yeah range could proably stand to be improved. I'd boost the cataput;s range to 16-18 or so. it gives the standard rapid fire 24 inch gun most armies have a raw range advantage but it means there's a window eldar are getting 2 shots but the other guy isn't. it means intelligent manuvering and placement will enable eldar to have a sizable firepower edge throughout the battle

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I really do wish Warlocks were still part of squads. I'm completely against the way GW separated out command elements from units like that (this applies to Guard as well, where Command Squads were created specifically because Guard commanders were squishy humans who shouldn't be on their own!).

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I really do wish Warlocks were still part of squads. I'm completely against the way GW separated out command elements from units like that (this applies to Guard as well, where Command Squads were created specifically because Guard commanders were squishy humans who shouldn't be on their own!).

I actually like having the option to take a character warlock and a squad of warlocks. I remember people bemoaning the lack of the former for years. But absolutely agree that the squadlocks are missed. They were very fluffy for the army and mechanically kind of unique. Plus, it's a rare day that a character warlock will spend his once-per-turn Runes of Battle power on a guardian squad when he could be buffing an aspect warrior squad instead. So there's actively an incentive to NOT buddy your warlocks up with your guardians like in the old days.
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's a problem with the degradation of the Shuriken Catapult as a weapon that once out-shot Storm Bolters.

I'm all for fixing the ShuriCat. Making Eldar, especially Guardians, tougher though? No.

Speed is their defence. The fact that GW decided to make positioning and manoeuvre less important as the editions wore on, and outright removed Initiative as a stat, does not mean that Eldar should have stats rivalling Nobz in an effort to compensate for what they've lost.

I should also point out an error I made earlier: Guardians are citizens militia except for Ulthwe, where they are treated like a proper army.


Most of the craftworlds treat there guardians as a military, and would need a considerable forces ready to go in support of other parts of the military forces. A lot of the backbone for the codex is guardian support and with Ulthwe you also have said-hann and Iyanden who utilise them far more though culture and necessity.
Even if a large portion of them are reserves, they are a long lived race and a specific part of that culture is about reinventing yourself.
They should be well trained and well equipped for how they are supposed to be.
They probably should just get a range boost to 24 so they match up with a large portion of the fighting forces so they can offer that ranged support better.
Since then they at least fit the part they play as support to the other arms of the Eldar fighting force of the craftworlds.
   
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Wyldhunt wrote:
I actually like having the option to take a character warlock and a squad of warlocks. I remember people bemoaning the lack of the former for years.
Oh I completely agree. Many moons ago, long before even 6th edition was a thing, we got sick of 40k and wrote our own version. Our Eldar Codex had HQ Warlock Champions, and regular Warlocks that went in squads.

Warlock Champions were a way of taking a psychic warrior HQ, as opposed to a highly versitile combat HQ (Autarch, although we called them Exarch Masters at the time, as Autarchs didn't exist yet), a psychic leader HQ (Farseer) or just a straight up monster (Mr. Avatar).

You could replicate such a thing by having the Warlocks in squads have powers that don't require psychic tests to activate, can't be denied either, but have a smaller effect. Then the Warlock HQ gets the far more killy versions. Or even have the power have a passive ability, and then a boosted ability via a psychic test (and that can be denied).

Wyldhunt wrote:
But absolutely agree that the squadlocks are missed. They were very fluffy for the army and mechanically kind of unique.
One of my fondest memories from 3rd Edition was what we always referred to as the 'Overenthusiastic Warlock'. He got himself (and his squad) into close combat with a Sentinel, of all things. Well, the Guardians couldn't scratch the thing, but that Witchblade had other ideas. It cut the Sentinel clean in half, and then the Sentinel exploded. When the dust settled there was a Warlock standing in a crater, completely alone, as he'd killed his entire squad with the explosion. Whoops!

Wyldhunt wrote:
Plus, it's a rare day that a character warlock will spend his once-per-turn Runes of Battle power on a guardian squad when he could be buffing an aspect warrior squad instead. So there's actively an incentive to NOT buddy your warlocks up with your guardians like in the old days.
Which is a shame as they used to be so integral.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 04:52:39


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I guess when we think of Eldar guardians we should think of the US National Guard and less civilians picking up guns.
   
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Wyldhunt wrote:
I actually like having the option to take a character warlock and a squad of warlocks. I remember people bemoaning the lack of the former for years. But absolutely agree that the squadlocks are missed. They were very fluffy for the army and mechanically kind of unique. Plus, it's a rare day that a character warlock will spend his once-per-turn Runes of Battle power on a guardian squad when he could be buffing an aspect warrior squad instead. So there's actively an incentive to NOT buddy your warlocks up with your guardians like in the old days.


Very true, it's nice to have the option to have Warlocks and others not squad locked and it was heavily requested a lot. Initially I liked the characters by themselves with maelstrom of battle but as loopholes or weird situations kept popping up and the FAQs keep making it more convoluted I've reversed stance on it. Now I'd rather just have a Warlock (or other IC) attached to a unit and just stay there to avoid the headache.

I like your earlier suggestion as well, fluff wise I would prefer Guardians go back to WS/BS 4+ but have better equipment compared to a Guardsmen. Most importantly is the abysmal range on the Shuriken Catapult getting boosted. 18" for Guardians and 24" for DA would be reasonable if they don't have any movement tricks like JSJ.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
One of my fondest memories from 3rd Edition was what we always referred to as the 'Overenthusiastic Warlock'. He got himself (and his squad) into close combat with a Sentinel, of all things. Well, the Guardians couldn't scratch the thing, but that Witchblade had other ideas. It cut the Sentinel clean in half, and then the Sentinel exploded. When the dust settled there was a Warlock standing in a crater, completely alone, as he'd killed his entire squad with the explosion. Whoops!


Hahaha, that's quite a memorable moment. I do miss wacky things happening with Witchblades, they were 2+ vs Infantry and S9 vs vehicles right?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 05:01:04


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tygre wrote:
I guess when we think of Eldar guardians we should think of the US National Guard and less civilians picking up guns.


Probably a bit of both, even in modern times here on earth militia and military take on very different structures even if they are similar looking in.
Eldar would be no different, someone needs to train guardians. They would need personal for logistics and command, and support.
They also draw crews from the guardians for a lot of there forces even when aspects are the primary fighting force.
Also fighting for 60 years over a lifetime that can reach over 300-400 and more is different from even The guard.
It’s alien

Also raising there range to 18 would likely just mean they stay useless, as they would be unlikely to exchange fire well why holding the field which is arguably there prime role within the Eldar force. If they get movement that moves them out into range then it would have to be significant to get them back into the defensive position or onto the objective again. Probably causing issues in other places.
The reach of many other forces is just too large for that, dire avengers can be better in other ways but they should have similar range or avengers getting there own boost over a good standard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 05:09:09


 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

Personally I'd just make them 4+ save and make ShuriCats Assault 3 range 18"
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






^Yeah back in the day Guardians ran with better armor than Guardsmen and better weapons than Storm Bolters. Imo that's where Guardians make the most sense.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Cronch wrote:
absolutely. Makes sense the eldar would dress their soldiers in armor as thin as IG flak jackets.
I'd argue that they're not soldiers, but rather citizens militia. They're there as a last resort. The soldiers of the Eldar are the Aspect Warriors.


But HBMC, they're eldar, and eldar are such special snowflakes that their MILITA should be better equipped then space marines.. no no their militas should be better equipped then CUSTODES. because eldar!

No, but MAYBE the dying race of technologically superior aliens could figure out a way to equip it's people with armor that is more than equivalent of Imperium's cheapest? Just a thoughts. But I guess they are militia, so they wouldn't be protected at all, not like Eldar would want to stop their citizens from dying to stray lasguns.
Of course it could be that Eldar just can't produce something equivalent to IG Stormtrooper armor for it's few hundred thousand citizen-soldiers, they are after all inept dummies who should lose to imperium every time to make Timmy the 40yo marine player feel funny in his pants.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 07:44:27


 
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





Just bring Shuriken Catapults back to 24". A lot of things have increased their ranges in relation to weapons and movements since 2nd edition so having Shuriken Catapults stay at their pitiful range just makes no sense anymore. Because otherwise there will just be a pile on of special rules - on the weapon and unit as well as stratagems - just to make them worthwhile with such a short range as 12".

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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Eldarsif wrote:
Just bring Shuriken Catapults back to 24". A lot of things have increased their ranges in relation to weapons and movements since 2nd edition so having Shuriken Catapults stay at their pitiful range just makes no sense anymore. Because otherwise there will just be a pile on of special rules - on the weapon and unit as well as stratagems - just to make them worthwhile with such a short range as 12".


GW has been loathe to admit their mistake for many editions now. Their original 3rd edition idea that the reduced range would be adequately compensated for by an additional S4 shot AP5 shot was clearly wrong. The increase of the Dire Avenger catapult to 18" is a tacit admission of that.

The problem goes back to the original conception of the Eldar statline vs. humans, just like with Elves vs. humans in WHFB. They were pretty much humans with +1 WS/BS, I, Ld, and slightly better gear. The Guardian's intended counterpart was the Imperial Guardsman. The idea was that Eldar civilian militia performed equally well in skill to professional Imperial Guard (who are meant to be the top 10% of the PDF of their worlds), and with better gear (in 2nd edition). Yes, if you compare it like that the 2nd edition Guardian was superior to the human Guardsman. However the growing dominance of MEQ has now made that comparison irrelevant on the tabletop even if it should still be there in terms of background, as the most common opponent faced will be the SM. The increase of the Guardian WS/BS was yet again a tacit admission that the standard had shifted.

Things like having shuriken rend are just GW's attempt to improve the catapult without having to admit they made a mistake in the first place with the 12" range. To be honest, I'm not holding out a lot of hope if GW remains stubborn on this point despite being aware of the problem for multiple editions now. It'd be great if they bumped the range of both the Guardian and Avenger catapult.

The pessimistic part of me wonders whether GW would just bump the catapult to 3 shots instead and call it a day. I don't think one additional shot per catapult would make a difference. Not sure how many more additional shots would be needed before one would actually begin to care about Guardians and their 12" S4 catapult shots. From 3rd edition onwards, it was only really about the weapons platform and maybe securing objectives, with the actual catapults as an afterthought and the Guardians just being ablative bodies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 11:08:24


 
   
 
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