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 lord_blackfang wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

If you intend to release your board game in retail, you don't need to use kickstarter. You can work on it behind the scenes and advertise it once it's ready. That is the truth.

Also the truth is that only megacorporations still do that and even freakin Hasbro does crowdfunding. Kickstarter is the default for this industry now, stop using it as some argument that Mantic is exceptionally nefarious because it uses KS.

Never said they're "exceptionnally nefarious". But I just think that contrary to the common belief by their fanboyz, they're actually no better than any megacorporation on that matter - since they do use the same tricks as them in the end. It's also good to notice that GW doesn't use kickstarters at all and they do release boardgames as well. So there's that.

Mantic Games is just here to do business like any other on the market, big or small, and they don't really care that much for players if they use Kickstarter for Dungeon Saga - only for the money it will bring them. That's all what I'm saying.

Sarouan wrote:

If you intend to release your board game in retail, you don't need to use kickstarter. You can work on it behind the scenes and advertise it once it's ready. That is the truth.

Unless of course the amount of money to produce the items is far too expensive for a small company and they need the money upfront to pay for the manufacture.

Sarouan wrote:

Yes, the team they said will work on it will certainly make a good board game out of that new DS. The issue is the intention and direction behind. Looking at the tiles on the previews, though, all flat carboard with set rooms (and small ones at that...) including doors and furniture...that indeed is screaming "boardgame", and not really "good dungeon crawler with RPG elements". Something you'll play once and put back on the shelves to never use again.

Other than (rules obviously), colour game tiles, hero/enemy minis, maybe some plastic furniture and doors. Can I ask what else is actually needed to make a "good dungeon crawler with RPG elements" rather than a "boardgame"? Mantic have made furniture with all the terrain crates, doors etc - all in plastic already.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

If you intend to release your board game in retail, you don't need to use kickstarter. You can work on it behind the scenes and advertise it once it's ready. That is the truth.

Unless of course the amount of money to produce the items is far too expensive for a small company and they need the money upfront to pay for the manufacture.

Sure, it's great for individuals and such who don't have any cash to invest prior. Here, we're talking about an existing franchise, with an existing fanbase, and they clearly have already made a lot of work on it (otherwise, you wouldn't see what they have done so far on the previews, it's already quite advanced).

Mantic Games is not a "small company" as people think they are - as if, they don't make much money. They were at the beginning, but not anymore now. And they are now experienced with how Kickstarters work, and how they can gather money quickly by building a clever marketing campaign. That they totally do right so far. It doesn't cost no money as well, they do clearly invest in that field. Let's not pretend they don't have money "upfront" to "pay for the manufacture".

Sarouan wrote:

Other than (rules obviously), colour game tiles, hero/enemy minis, maybe some plastic furniture and doors. Can I ask what else is actually needed to make a "good dungeon crawler with RPG elements" rather than a "boardgame"? Mantic have made furniture with all the terrain crates, doors etc - all in plastic already.

And it's a separate product, so it's clearly not intended to be sold in the new DS box - otherwise they would have used it on the preview pictures. Besides, given the limited space in the rooms, I'm not sure it's really suited to work together (their plastic furniture pieces take a bit of space, after all).

What else is actually needed ? Just look at how Advanced Heroquest works, for example : making your own characters, having town events, having quests linked together and true experience / loot system that keeps going on from an adventure to another...So far, that's apparently not where this version of DS is going. It's more similar to bandai Heroquest with quick play in mind than anything else. Fine and all, but better be sure what this game is about rather than trying to sell it as what it isn't. Which is why reviews of product in retail exist, and why it doesn't really work when it's on Kickstarter labelled as a "WIP" (and if everything is already done and set in stone...then it's even more a scandal that they make a Kickstarter for that instead to put it to retail directly :( ).

Kickstarter is great for any creative industry manufacturer, the site itself acts as a hugely effective marketing platform, often kickstarter itself provides 75% of the backers on a project.

Having run a kickstarter myself, It's really a no-brainer as long as you're able to deliver and don't run on ridiculous low margins that sink the project.

I mean.. they would need to either show near-finished rules. Preferably written by someone like James Hewitt along with a series of completed renders with examples printed and shown alongside various other models so we can see actual scale and proportions along with some specifics of the material since most of my DS models came bent with a fair few that were also broken...

Mantic are in fact still a very small company.


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Average of sub 30 employees in the last year, balance sheet of about £1million after liabilities etc. All this info is freely available. They're pretty much exactly the kind of enterprise that *should* be using Kickstarter

Ronny has been totally up front on the Kickstarter issues. And it's not like SOME Monty Haul projects that make over 3 million dollars, then disappear.

Mantic's games from KS haven't exactly been the type for large scale production runs, nor is Mantic a company that should NOT be using KS for their specialized games runs.

As much as you want to call it, they are the exact company, with Small Specialized projects to be be counted on to be completed, a run here and there to garner interest, and also subcontractor games, such as the Walking Dead and Hellboy games that incurred a licensing cost in addition to molds and machining for the production.

In the past, I'd taken them to task on a couple of issues, but in the end their personal attention to the issues was the exact reason why they deserve my business.

Honestly though, does the principle of using Kickstarter or not even matter? From my perspective what matters is how the funding is used to give quality to the final product. And in Mantic's case it perpetually seems like the final product will be mediocre whether it gets a thousand in funding or a million. A lot of people know what to expect and accept that, a lot of other people have a problem with it. And neither group is wrong.

Sounds about right.

I was always pretty happy with what I got for the price, but also frustrated because a lot of the time the product was tantalizingly close to being great but they just didn't put in the little extra effort. It's like Mantic are always sending first drafts directly to print.

I really don’t see how Mantic is apparently raki in tons of money like some here say.

The crazy boxes this time around have some retail product , and a mix of existing and old miniatures. At £25 then Mantic either has very very low production costs or they are taking a loss to generate cash flow. As Ronnie himself says in the video , many of the individual items retail at £25 for just one (albeit in packaging and with bases). The new app has a pricing model suggesting they are trying to tap into some cash from dedicated users. They’ve changed the minimum spend for free shipping when buying direct , which by itself is not unique but given they are selling it direct then you’d expect they have a better margin selling direct with free shipping on most items than selling to retail who then make their own margin.

Whilst Kickstarter is a good tool for business , it’s incredibly bad for customers who are reduced to backers with little rights - witness the collapse of the Jurassic World Kickstarter despite Exod claiming late last year the stock was sitting in warehouses , and which used covid to generate a second round of product sales with both backers and retailers to “support retailers”.

It’s hard to see what this new dungeon saga offers over the original and now that there is a new Heroquest I don’t see paying a year in advance for a game with cardboard token furniture being super appealing.

TheHammer wrote:
No one has mentioned it, and I've had some negative experience with Mantic in the past, but the Hellboy board game is Very Good. The minis are good, the scenarios are good, it plays well, and I think it's a very good dungeon crawler that gets overlooked. There's some issues, and the FAQ is a little longer than I'd like (but largely edge case scenarios), but I think it's a very good game that has me excited to look at the new Dungeon Saga KS.

It's also a big part of why I'd need to see that DS was being designed by someone like James Hewitt. This is a great interview covering a lot of his work for Mantic, GW and some others. (stick it on in the background while you do some painting)
https://youtu.be/GAsX9W2GDTY

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Honestly though, does the principle of using Kickstarter or not even matter? From my perspective what matters is how the funding is used to give quality to the final product. And in Mantic's case it perpetually seems like the final product will be mediocre whether it gets a thousand in funding or a million. A lot of people know what to expect and accept that, a lot of other people have a problem with it. And neither group is wrong.

Indeed. But that does apply only to people who already know MG and dealt with them before.

Newbies coming with this project first don't know what to really expect from MG. That's the danger of KS and all the artificial hype built from the marketing team around it (not even talking about fanboyz).

Of course, you can always tell them "KS is always a risk, you should come prepared", but fanboyz do have a tendancy to minimize that part when they advertise the project "because they want MG to succeed".

That's what I despise in this project. At least, when the product is in retail, you can have direct reviews on its content. It's not like you give money in advance and received bendy miniatures and thin cardboard with Bandai Heroquest rules as a result.

And the reason why MG keeps releasing mediocre products is that they don't have enough negative backlash about them doing so. It works and they keep selling it, so why should they change and go for real quality for the gamers instead ?

Sarouan, you should have all the exalts. I'm going to print that out, frame it, and look at it every so often.

I'd say an advantage of Kickstarter is that you can click through to a creator's other projects, read the comments on them, read all the updates over the course of the project and see how long it took to deliver etc - there's plenty there for consumers to look at and judge whether they want to back the project at this point, and plenty of coverage of DS 1.0, League of Infamy etc on board games media. The idea "newbies don't know what to expect from MG" is crap, the info is all there to be had.

Billicus wrote:
I'd say an advantage of Kickstarter is that you can click through to a creator's other projects, read the comments on them, read all the updates over the course of the project and see how long it took to deliver etc - there's plenty there for consumers to look at and judge whether they want to back the project at this point, and plenty of coverage of DS 1.0, League of Infamy etc on board games media. The idea "newbies don't know what to expect from MG" is crap, the info is all there to be had.

"It's their fault for not getting the info themselves". That's the real crap.

Like TwilightSparkles said, Kickstarter is really bad for consumers : you have basically no right and you're totally at the mercy of the creator's good will to get something when something goes wrong. There are plenty of examples of "projects that was sure to be successful" and were going down into flames in a spectacular manner / turned out to be scam. The downfall of Rackam "new generation" and Spartan Games, or the infamous Super Dungeon Explore debacle can be consulted on their theads for history on this forum. Don't even talk about "going to Justice" to get your money back - we're talking about a MG project, here. If people had money to spend in lawyers in a long legal battle, they wouldn't back MG and their "cheap products", they would directly buy GW or FW boxes.

KS is a leap of faith. It's not like you pre-order a product ready to sail for retail. You're not sure what you'll get in the end...if you get anything at all. And it's not the job nor the interest of other backers to tell you the truth about it - mostly because backers tend to want the project to succeed, and the only good way for that is to attract more backers - certainly not pushing them away with negative comments.

Sure, a consumer can look the hundred of comments in previous KS before pledging, and check what comes from a blind fanboy and what is a real statement - or check the past history of what was said on social media and forums. But the thing is, the clock is ticking on a KS before the campaign ends and you don't especially have time to do an investigator's job. So you tend to ask on the KS's current project. Of course, the creator will always be reassuring and the other backers...well, like I said, you can't really rely on them.

Newbies that are attracted on the project usually do so because they saw an ad about it - mostly from other backers. And those who do are certainly not those who were disappointed by the 1st KS. It's already biased at the start.

But of course, people who want MG to succeed no matter the cost don't see the issue with this. They're blinded by their own interests. Which is why they can't be trusted, but newbies don't know that. And you dare to blame them for their ignorance ? Shame on you, I say.

Who's talking about fault? Who's talking about blame? I didn't blame anyone for anything, I'm arguing with the point you made - that Kickstarter obfuscates product details from consumers making the consumer take the risks - with a logical counter - Kickstarter makes finding info about other projects by that creator pretty easy, reducing the risk to the consumer. But you didn't like that so rather than argue you rang the shame bell. Cool, I'm done.

Billicus wrote:
Who's talking about fault? Who's talking about blame? I didn't blame anyone for anything, I'm arguing with the point you made - that Kickstarter obfuscates product details from consumers making the consumer take the risks - with a logical counter - Kickstarter makes finding info about other projects by that creator pretty easy, reducing the risk to the consumer. But you didn't like that so rather than argue you rang the shame bell. Cool, I'm done.

You say "The idea "newbies don't know what to expect from MG" is crap, the info is all there to be had". You thus imply it's their fault if they don't know it because they didn't do the research. You can deny, sure, since you left ambivalence, but I'm pretty sure that's what you think here.

Looking at previous projects isn't telling by itself. To know what happened, you have to browse manually through comments and actualities. And there is no search option. It's a chore, I know it because I did it exactly that - and I had way too much time to waste on it. So yes, the info is there but NO it's not easy to find it, especially on big projects with thousand of comments. MG is not the biggest creator, but it's definitely not the smallest as well.

If you did try to do that, you would know that as well. But since you didn't and look at superficial tools on KS just to make the point "KS is fine", I'm calling you on this.

If people had money to spend in lawyers in a long legal battle, they wouldn't back MG and their "cheap products", they would directly buy GW or FW boxes.

What!? Why on earth would you think that?

I could afford lawyers but I have no intent on buying GW crap. I vastly prefer Mantic over GW.

Sarouan wrote:
Like TwilightSparkles said, Kickstarter is really bad for consumers : you have basically no right and you're totally at the mercy of the creator's good will to get something when something goes wrong. There are plenty of examples of "projects that was sure to be successful" and were going down into flames in a spectacular manner / turned out to be scam. The downfall of Rackam "new generation" and Spartan Games, or the infamous Super Dungeon Explore debacle can be consulted on their theads for history on this forum. Don't even talk about "going to Justice" to get your money back - we're talking about a MG project, here. If people had money to spend in lawyers in a long legal battle, they wouldn't back MG and their "cheap products", they would directly buy GW or FW boxes.

so, a lot here. Kickstarter isn't bad for consumers, but it is risky for consumers. The reason it isn't bad is because it generates the front end sales that allow products that otherwise wouldn't exist to be made. If you are not comfortable with risk, than kickstarter is not for you, and that's fair.

KS is a leap of faith. It's not like you pre-order a product ready to sail for retail. You're not sure what you'll get in the end...if you get anything at all. And it's not the job nor the interest of other backers to tell you the truth about it - mostly because backers tend to want the project to succeed, and the only good way for that is to attract more backers - certainly not pushing them away with negative comments.

Sure, a consumer can look the hundred of comments in previous KS before pledging, and check what comes from a blind fanboy and what is a real statement - or check the past history of what was said on social media and forums. But the thing is, the clock is ticking on a KS before the campaign ends and you don't especially have time to do an investigator's job. So you tend to ask on the KS's current project. Of course, the creator will always be reassuring and the other backers...well, like I said, you can't really rely on them.

I dunno man. Mantic has shipped over a dozen kickstarters. You can quibble about the quality of the model or the rules for some of them, but they're pretty reliable.

And clock ticking? It takes like ten minutes to do some quick googling. I literally typed in "are mantic kickstarters worth it" and the fourth result down is a reddit thread about lack of fulfillment. googling "dungeon saga mantic review" brings up a bunch of tepid reviews.

Newbies that are attracted on the project usually do so because they saw an ad about it - mostly from other backers. And those who do are certainly not those who were disappointed by the 1st KS. It's already biased at the start.

But of course, people who want MG to succeed no matter the cost don't see the issue with this. They're blinded by their own interests. Which is why they can't be trusted, but newbies don't know that. And you dare to blame them for their ignorance ? Shame on you, I say.

We're not blaming them for their own ignorance, but I guess you've created this hypothetical world where a person pledges a ton of money on a mantic product, despite never hearing anything about mantic, and then is terribly disappointed with what they get. Which I just don't think is likely to happen?

the dirty secret behind kickstarter games is that a huge percentage (I'd guess 40-60%) are barely even played. I think people get those big boxes a year or more after they pledge, look through it, maybe build a few models or try the opening mission, and then pack it all back up. I've done that more than once. I'm the first person to say that Kickstarter is closer to penny stocks than blue chips. But you seem like a person with a weird vendetta against Mantic.

what I don't get is claiming that Mantic is already as expensive as GW while making worse rules than GW and have a bad model quality

yet at the same time, people go for Mantic because they cannot afford GW and/or want better rules

if someone likes Heroquest, go for it. No need to go with DS if you want to play Heroquest

Mantic started with substitute rules for a GW game, because they already had a similar main game and GW killed their version of it
This does not mean that all other games they make are based on a GW game and you get the very same game but for cheap

what you are looking for is OnePageRules, they make the models and games to be a 1:1 replacement

and "warning" newbies from a Mantic KS on Dakka is strange at best
and the main "warning" is the same as for all products on Kickstarter, there is a risk and the end-product might not be what you expect

same risk for all KS, same risk for all early access or pre-order computer games etc.
if you want to purchase without risk, wait for retail and reviews
this is nothing specific for Mantic, except that MG is one of those were the products see a retail release unlike some others that are KS exclusive

Sarouan wrote:
If people had money to spend in lawyers in a long legal battle, they wouldn't back MG and their "cheap products", they would directly buy GW or FW boxes.

Sarouan wrote:

But of course, people who want MG to succeed no matter the cost don't see the issue with this. They're blinded by their own interests. Which is why they can't be trusted, but newbies don't know that. And you dare to blame them for their ignorance ? Shame on you, I say.

I buy GW rules/models.
I buy Mantic rules/models.
I find the Mantic rules far more enjoyable, playtested and have less errors than GW rules.
I find the GW models better, but I do like some Mantic models.

All I can gather from your posting is an irrational hatred of all things Mantic.
I just assume it's that you're so deeply entrenched in the GW bubble and have a fear of people leaving that bubble to play other things.

I bought into Mantic's KS Vanguard which I've played once, and bought sets of models after the kickstarter. Yeah, I feel like a fool for wasting my money. However, I haven't wasted half as much money on that as I have on 40k9 rules/codices which will also be shelf fodder. At least with a Mantic boardgame/crawler/skirmish I can play it a few years down the line with a group of friends/family. With the out of date GW printed stuff, it's just car boot fodder. Expensive GW books ought to have a 'use by' date on them which is generally 3 years or less. Is this something that 'newbies' need to be warned of?

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Sarouan wrote:
If people had money to spend in lawyers in a long legal battle, they wouldn't back MG and their "cheap products", they would directly buy GW or FW boxes.

Sarouan wrote:

But of course, people who want MG to succeed no matter the cost don't see the issue with this. They're blinded by their own interests. Which is why they can't be trusted, but newbies don't know that. And you dare to blame them for their ignorance ? Shame on you, I say.

I buy GW rules/models.
I buy Mantic rules/models.
I find the Mantic rules far more enjoyable, playtested and have less errors than GW rules.
I find the GW models better, but I do like some Mantic models.

All I can gather from your posting is an irrational hatred of all things Mantic.
I just assume it's that you're so deeply entrenched in the GW bubble and have a fear of people leaving that bubble to play other things.

I bought into Mantic's KS Vanguard which I've played once, and bought sets of models after the kickstarter. Yeah, I feel like a fool for wasting my money. However, I haven't wasted half as much money on that as I have on 40k9 rules/codices which will also be shelf fodder. At least with a Mantic boardgame/crawler/skirmish I can play it a few years down the line with a group of friends/family. With the out of date GW printed stuff, it's just car boot fodder. Expensive GW books ought to have a 'use by' date on them which is generally 3 years or less. Is this something that 'newbies' need to be warned of?

I cannot answer for Sauron, but from my own experience with Mantic.

Kickstarted KOW2.0, package lost in transit, they called me a thief/liar, but then it turned out to be a terrible computer glitch on their end and took time to manufacture more and send out the replacements. No apologies.

I like the KOW system, trying to get the group to play it, but we are firmly bought into ASOIAF, Blood Bowl, Arenarex and bunches of board games.

I've picked up lots of KOW models from the discount bin and I am happy I got them at those prices, but feel for the prices they ask for the miniatures I expect a lot more. Material wise, they kept changing their tune on what materials they were going to use and some materials were a downgrade. Also, talking about price, they decided to pull the Warlord Games stunt (And GW before that) and make it so I have to order from the US store, which means I cannot take advantage of the currency exchange rate, and the cost conversions between the US site and UK site are different. They went from a good deal to not as good of a deal, and when you are trying to recruit people to play their system instead of GW's, it needs to be a better deal. People still buy GW stuff because they know they can get a game in almost anywhere, to invest in a new system where you will have a hard time finding opponents is a cost that doesn't get factored in.

Rules wise, KOW is great, can's say anything about warpath as I never read the book all the way through and the models were a turn off.

Compared to GW, Mantic is a company that I WANT to support, but they keep finding ways to underachieve (changing material, writers and paths). They said they wanted to be the best Fantasy rank and file game, then they branched off into boardgames, maybe not the next day, but soon enough afterwards that it feels like they do not deliver on what you expected.

I think nearly all gamers (or hobbyists of any stripe, for that matter) have bought things that in retrospect they shouldn't have, or not gotten their money's worth, or whatever. Buying hobby stuff that doesn't get used the way we hoped is often the rule, not the expception. I remember when my local group was all getting into Flames of War, with a league starting in the fall. so I spent all summer buying and building my army, and by the time fall came, one guy moved away, another went back to jail (lol), and two of the guys that were going to play never bought anything. My army sat unused for a while, then sold for pennies on the dollar.

Should somebody have warned me that even active play groups can evaporate quickly? would I have listened?

Back in Warmachine MkII, i built a huge cygnar army, painted the whole thing up, and then MKIII hit, and again, the play group disappeared. I had thousands of dollars in paperweights.

Now, the counter is that I at least received the products I expected, but from my perspective it was still wasted time and money.



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 Theophony wrote:
Compared to GW, Mantic is a company that I WANT to support, but they keep finding ways to underachieve (changing material, writers and paths). They said they wanted to be the best Fantasy rank and file game, then they branched off into boardgames, maybe not the next day, but soon enough afterwards that it feels like they do not deliver on what you expected.

They've been around a long time despite not really having a hit game or model range. The obvious comparator is Warlord, who had big success with Bolt Action, and then kind of became the go to source for 28mm historicals. the most played Mantic game is probably KOW, which is a really good ranks and flanks game, but they're models still lag way behind what's available, not just from GW, but even from other smaller companies. The other big success is probably Deadzone, but Killteam's success is probably going to prevent it from ever blowing up.

I think the kickstarters and board games actually keep them in business. the Walking Dead game is well spoken of, but I've not met anybody who plays.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Expensive GW books ought to have a 'use by' date on them which is generally 3 years or less. Is this something that 'newbies' need to be warned of?

Yes, but they won't listen and will likely resent you for it if you do. Just like most of us did too way back in the day when our respective old timers tried.

3 years if you're lucky! These fancy Arks of Omen books are going to have a shelf life of between 3 and 6 months on average if there's a new edition this summer.

Billicus wrote:
3 years if you're lucky! These fancy Arks of Omen books are going to have a shelf life of between 3 and 6 months on average if there's a new edition this summer.

That in itself rests on a lot of unstated assumptions, 'Shelf life' being a loaded term, but we don't need to have that entire side-conservation about the GW police coming and taking your books etc. for the umpteenth time.

The rules content stops being current within that timeframe, that's all that's meant. It's valid criticism, if we're talking about "buyer beware" situations.

I think that enough people assign value to gaming books as being sources of rules that are currently played that it's safe to say that books whose rules rotate out are, in fact, obsolete.

You can have a galaxy brain take that you still own the paper and ink, so it's still good, but I don't think very many people will agree, and an even cursory look at eBay shows that the value of older books does drop (on ebay, psychic awakening books that sold for $50 sell for less than half of that.

Just to add that whatever digs might be made against Mantic, getting on them for using KS alot is not really valid. There are alot of items from companies of all sizes that just aren't going to be viable without crowd funding. Whether it's for one-off products (or functionally one-offs) or just to try and get enough of a toehold to support future retail releases. Crowdfunding is just the way the gaming world is now.

GW has the market share and fanbase to skip it but even Hasbro is doing crowd funding and thank heavens they are because I like my new Heroquest.

As for what Mantic gets you, if you go in on a Mantic KS you you can expect:
-At least mid-quality models, perhaps some better
-An above average amount of figures-per-dollar.
-Playable rules of varying quality.
-A near certainty the KS will ship.

That's the equation. Buy or don't, but the above list is one that alot of folks are going to be satisfied with even if they don't get GW quality models or the next hot game.

One can validly feel disappointed about some past Mantic KS's. However, Mantic's KS record is very well established now so that if someone buys in today on a Mantic KS and is disappointed with less than perfect models or rules, they almost have to blame themselves.

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