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Is it just me or we dont see details on the minis and the sound quality of these videos is so poor that makes them unbearable?

sound is ok, but I watch it it with headphones

details on the models would not mean much as those are 3D printed masters and not production models anyway

 kodos wrote:


details on the models would not mean much as those are 3D printed masters and not production models anyway

Yeah, and they still incite people to back this KS in their videos. Understandable from their point of view, but I have a bad feeling of déjà vu here.

But hey, roll a die : 1-3 you'll receive bad material / broken miniatures, 4-6 it will be average miniatures that'll do the job. Is it worth the wait and paying 1+ year in advance for something you may not feel playing when you'll receive it (if you'll receive it at all) ? People decide on their own.

Yes, you're still just describing Kickstarter. Nothing about Mantic in particular warrants being singled out like this, so it just looks like you're being motivated by a personal vendetta.

And I hate to reveal how the sausage is made but basically every miniature manufacturer that isn't showing you 3D renders *is* showing you painted masters that are much sharper than the production models will be.

*removed as it wasn't useful for the 'discussion' *

 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:
I think you have déjà vu because you spend so much time in here repeating how Kick Starter works, over and over, making it seem like Mantic have somehow found a loophole to extract money directly form unaware 'noobs' wallets

Nope, it's just like first Dungeon Saga.

Not all Kickstarter projects just show renders or master models, mind you. Some have production models already. That's not the case here. When you don't see final details and someone tells you "details don't matter here, it's not the final product" - it doesn't have to be a satisfying answer when your money is involved.

Miniatures are still a big part of the project (the rest being poor quality cardboard, there's no real value in it). It's important to know what is the quality of the final material that will be sold.

You may dismiss / hate me for all the negative I say here, because I'm not sharing the hype on it, but it's still a question backers have a right to have answered.

Sarouan wrote:

Yeah, and they still incite people to back this KS in their videos. Understandable from their point of view, but I have a bad feeling of déjà vu here.

But hey, roll a die : 1-3 you'll receive bad material / broken miniatures, 4-6 it will be average miniatures that'll do the job. Is it worth the wait and paying 1+ year in advance for something you may not feel playing when you'll receive it (if you'll receive it at all) ? People decide on their own.

"Incite" people to back the KS, in a KS specific demo to actually advertise that product? How dare they. lol

"bad material". I agree that sometimes the material is a bit duff, but you usually are told what the material is upfront.
"broken miniatures"? In my experience, Mantic have a customer service second to none and would replace it in an instant.
"average miniatures that'll do the job"? Even in (gasp) PVC? You know, like most boardgames out there?
People that are KSing a boardgame dungeon crawler know what to expect. I'm not sure you do, other than spout your 'I hate Mantic rhetoric'

Especially when Mantic was one of the first to jump on the "actually good board game PVC" wagon.

I don't put the miniatures quality of all boardgames on the same level. But thats just me.

Im quite aware how minis are produced and what is showed most of the times, renders, prints, resins etc
Thing is at this point in time theres not much revealed here.

Fair enough if some of you dont care about the minis but its, for me, kind of a make it or break it for these kind of products.

Too much talk and not much seen so yeah missed chance if the intention was to hype this KS.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

People that are KSing a boardgame dungeon crawler know what to expect.

People who backed previous boardgame dungeon crawlers on KS...maybe they know what to expect. And then that's not even a given, depends if they know Mantic Games or not as well. Not all Dungeon Crawlers are necessarily cheap material, you know.

Not even talking about people who back something on KS the first time. There's always a first for someone at some point.

You may not care about them and dismiss any critic / question that seem still fair to me, but you won't make these questions / critics disappear in the void anyway. Especially when they are fair.

I don't care for the models at all
For a game I need something that gets the job done, no need to add in something super detailed and expensive were a cardboard token would have done the same
So in this case the gameplay preview is much more important for me than anything about the models

For preview models being different, even GW only shows resin masters in advance and the model picture on the box is not made from the sprue inside. This is standard as no one wants to have his models on stock to wait for the cardboard to be done to ship it.

For the KS itself, saying they need money for tooling to produce the models would be a lie if they use production models for the previews.
Yet they cannot use 3D prints for a gameplay review either because this means they lie about the not yet produced models

 kodos wrote:
I don't care for the models at all
For a game I need something that gets the job done, no need to add in something super detailed and expensive were a cardboard token would have done the same
So in this case the gameplay preview is much more important for me than anything about the models

For preview models being different, even GW only shows resin masters in advance and the model picture on the box is not made from the sprue inside. This is standard as no one wants to have his models on stock to wait for the cardboard to be done to ship it.

For the KS itself, saying they need money for tooling to produce the models would be a lie if they use production models for the previews.
Yet they cannot use 3D prints for a gameplay review either because this means they lie about the not yet produced models

Regarding the underlined part... Most KS that have minis tend to show minis in detail, doesn't need to be final production ones( would be important for them to say what material they will end up using and at least have some examples of past projects) but the nature of KS is that they are WIP so WIP materials or concepts on renders or prints or concept art and so on and on is NOT a lie man. It's what KS meant to be.
BTW some KS do have production models in small runs as test pieces and still need the KS money to produce more or amend those runs...
Kind of an odd take to just call that "lies".

But hey, roll a die : 1-3 you'll receive bad material / broken miniatures, 4-6 it will be average miniatures that'll do the job. Is it worth the wait and paying 1+ year in advance for something you may not feel playing when you'll receive it (if you'll receive it at all) ? People decide on their own.

I'm only ever after average mini's that do the job. I'm not a mini collector/painter, I'm a gamer. I want at least semi decent games, the minis are secondary.

GW may produce nice, in their own right, minis; but they are no use to me - they are the almost all the wrong scale for use in other games, and too expensive for what they are - glorified game markers. I'll take 'average' cheap mantic minis over GW. GW produce minis that are of little use to me for too much money, and the games the produce are largely junk. Mantic produce playable and enjoyable games and reasonable minis, what else would I want?

Why wouldn't I receive it? I have no reason to suspect Mantic are going to screw me over. Could it happen, yes, but how likely - probably not much.

The following part is only really relevant to a select few people, but I happen to live in easy driving distance of Mantic in Nottingham, if they send me broken mini's I will just drive down and they will go and find some non-broken ones from the warehouse whilst I wait in the attached shop. They are a pretty decent bunch for stuff like that.

For what it is worth, I'm not on this KS - I'm not really into dungeon type games, I play RPGs for that. But I would hop on any Mantic KS that interested me subject wise - I am all in on the terrain one they did not long ago.

 NAVARRO wrote:

Regarding the underlined part... Most KS that have minis tend to show minis in detail, doesn't need to be final production ones( would be important for them to say what material they will end up using and at least have some examples of past projects) but the nature of KS is that they are WIP so WIP materials or concepts on renders or prints or concept art and so on and on is NOT a lie man. It's what KS meant to be.
BTW some KS do have production models in small runs as test pieces and still need the KS money to produce more or amend those runs...
Kind of an odd take to just call that "lies".

Kodos was just pointing out that Sarouan is holding Mantic to an unachievable standard and would probably be condemning them no matter what.

Man, you're fast Sarouan!

I removed my initial response text soon after posting because I felt it was mean spirited and poked fun at you rather than countering your arguments. I'm sorry you caught it, to be honest. No hatred here, I just don’t understand how you can get so much mileage out of having a bad experience on Kickstarter.

I used to be quite Mantic KS averse (of course they’re doing ANOTHER ONE!), until my mate started working for them (he’s The Marketing Machine you mention a lot) and he lifted the curtain on their KS reasonings and I have been a pretty staunch Mantic fan since. I have got to know Ronnie and a few of the management team, and I can tell you from first hand experience that every single one of them wants to create a great product that they are proud of, that people want to play, and that will grow their player base. Results are varied so far but they are getting there. They are very nice people, and a million miles away from the greedy corporation you want to paint them as. Just look at their HQ on google maps!

Regarding quality - I have KS copies of The Walking Dead and Hellboy and they are very very good products – both components and the actual game.

To be fair, they have released some stinkers. It is frustrating to see the difference in quality from the Rift Forged and Marauder Orcs compared to the Ogres and Halflings (not kick started, oddly enough) but generally speaking, to me, every release is an improvement on the last.

Reach out to Mantic, air your views with them directly. It will be quite cathartic I’d wager.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

Regarding the underlined part... Most KS that have minis tend to show minis in detail, doesn't need to be final production ones( would be important for them to say what material they will end up using and at least have some examples of past projects) but the nature of KS is that they are WIP so WIP materials or concepts on renders or prints or concept art and so on and on is NOT a lie man. It's what KS meant to be.
BTW some KS do have production models in small runs as test pieces and still need the KS money to produce more or amend those runs...
Kind of an odd take to just call that "lies".

Kodos was just pointing out that Sarouan is holding Mantic to an unachievable standard and would probably be condemning them no matter what.

Ah ok I was being too literal then, In that case yeah all good ignore my post. I hope that KS are perceived as such.
KS is always a risk no matter what company does them.
Thanks.

On another note Mantic is going to be at salute in month time so I wonder if they have demos and minis there for the project.

 kodos wrote:
I don't care for the models at all
For a game I need something that gets the job done, no need to add in something super detailed and expensive were a cardboard token would have done the same
So in this case the gameplay preview is much more important for me than anything about the models

For preview models being different, even GW only shows resin masters in advance and the model picture on the box is not made from the sprue inside. This is standard as no one wants to have his models on stock to wait for the cardboard to be done to ship it.

For the KS itself, saying they need money for tooling to produce the models would be a lie if they use production models for the previews.
Yet they cannot use 3D prints for a gameplay review either because this means they lie about the not yet produced models

If Mantic was clear during the Dungeon Saga Kickstarter that their minis were not intended for painting and were designed purely as tokens, I'd have been less annoyed at their quality when they finally arrived.

As it is, I have a box them taking up space in the back of my closet since the models aren't adequate for painting or D&D, and Descent and HeroQuest have better rules as dungeon crawlers.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Kodos was just pointing out that Sarouan is ho]lding Mantic to an unachievable standard and would probably be condemning them no matter what.

Not at all. I know Mantic Games is making mediocre products, will clearly keep doing that and their fanboyz will happily buy them while saying it's good enough for them.

But that doesn't mean you should always act like that. Especially when it's repeated over and over.

Because on the opposite of what Kodos is saying, it is achievable if you give yourself the means. Of course, if you're content with the current situation and feel comfortable because your fanboyz keep buying whatever you throw at them without looking, why do it ? And I understand perfectly why Mantic Games is doing it. It's simply business. Just like GW.

 NAVARRO wrote:

On another note Mantic is going to be at salute in month time so I wonder if they have demos and minis there for the project.

They will certainly launch the kickstarter during that period and use Salute to advertise it. They'll definitely prepare something about that.

 Tabletop_Magpie wrote:

Reach out to Mantic, air your views with them directly. It will be quite cathartic I’d wager.

Oh I already did. Of course they don't care about it, but at least here it can be interesting to read for other users who are looking for information about the KS. Dakkadakka is one channel amongst others, after all.

So it's the "one vs. many" format. I wonder if solo / co-op play will be tacked on as a stretch goal, again. It was a BIG request in the first Dungeon Saga and was eventually added but didn't get the care the format demanded so it fell short.

Ronnie says they've learned from their previous mistakes but, if so, I would have expected that solo / co-op would have been baked in from the start to attract fans of both formats at the onset. That would be a boon for quick funding.

That being said, from the play video, it doesn't seem all that difficult to house rule & tweak the Overlord format to be solo / co-op.

Thing is, there are SO MANY variations of the Dungeon Crawl theme on the market now (and in my closet) that Mantic needs to make Dungeon Saga stand out as special and unique and not a retread of their mediocre 9 y.o. first pass that left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of backers.

another video with the difference between old and new DS
here Ronnie mention that with the original game, Solo Play was "bolted on" and never feel right, this time it is a smooth experience and part of the game
the Solo/Coop Stretch Goal in the KS (and so far the only planned unlock) will the AI as an App





and another gameplay preview (3rd party review)

 kodos wrote:

the Solo/Coop Stretch Goal in the KS (and so far the only planned unlock) will the AI as an App

Mantic "Don't you guys have phones ?!" Games.

 kodos wrote:
another video with the difference between old and new DS
here Ronnie mention that with the original game, Solo Play was "bolted on" and never feel right, this time it is a smooth experience and part of the game
the Solo/Coop Stretch Goal in the KS (and so far the only planned unlock) will the AI as an App





and another gameplay preview (3rd party review)

Kudos kodos !! Thanks for the info and links

Gotta say, so far this looks promising and might go a long way to redeem what the original Dungeon Saga should have been. Damn, I can't believe Ronnie's Siren Song can still worm it's way into my head. I need a buff to my Will save !!!

I'm currently painting, almost finished even, the Hellboy board game and have really enjoyed playing it. The minis are good. Some are better than others, but I would put them next to basically any non-CMON board game minis out there (and I've painted a lot of board games!)

Similarly, the Walking Dead minis are also very good. They aren't super detailed, but they fit the comic book style very well and were easy and fun to paint and evocative of what each piece should represent.

I've painted a bunch of board games, did Skyrim minis (just the ones in the core box, not the minis expansion to be fair) recently, painted up the first season of Final Girl recently, painted up Journeys in Middle Earth, painted up most of Mansions of Madness, Resident Evil 3 by Steamforged, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some others. Long story short: both Hellboy and Walking Dead have better minis than any of those. They aren't as nice as Cthulhu Death May Die, but few games are, but they are better than any non-CMON board game I've painted.

I've also been burnt by Mantic in the past. First edition Deadzone, for instance, was very underwhelming and a big disappointment after some friends and I were hyped and painted it up and everything.

People don't need to like Mantic, I'd argue no one should really like any company at all, but they seem to be open about their past mistakes and what they are trying to do better with Dungeon Saga Origins. I'm excited for it, both because I really enjoy the Hellboy board game (and its components) and because it sounds like all the things that made me think Dungeon Saga wasn't for me is either fixed or understood by Mantic and they aren't too shy about talking about its shortcomings.

TheHammer wrote:
I've also been burnt by Mantic in the past. First edition Deadzone, for instance, was very underwhelming and a big disappointment after some friends and I were hyped and painted it up and everything.

Just a side note, but as someone who also invested in First edition Deadline back in the day but never played it, I'm sorry to hear that the game was pants, because I might give it a whirl someday. I did play a few games of Mantic's Mars Attacks, which I thought was basically a sort of "Deadzone lite," and even though I still don't care much for the property itself, it was the most fun I've had playing any Mantic game. (Those mutant ants and spiders are still awesome minis, too.) Regardless, I got my money's worth from Deadzone with the minis and terrain, and that's what I was buying in for.

Some of the Deadzone minis were outstanding - I think the Rebs Teraton and Plague First Gen hold up pretty well, even alongside CMON's better efforts. Some other Deadzone minis were mediocre - unfortunately and unwisely, Mantic was rushing their talented in-house sculptor - and some were pretty terrible. But I got my fun out of all of them, because I kitbashed the hell out of the mediocre and terrible ones until I made figures that I still love, and I learned a lot about modeling in the process. To put it in a nutshell, bad Deadzone minis introduced me to the joys of kitbashing. I just never painted them, but I'm finally (and slowly, 'cause that's how I paint) getting around to that now.

If the game itself isn't good, I'll most likely use those minis with a different system like Stargrave or 5 parsecs from home or home rules that I kitbash myself.

You said, "People don't need to like Mantic, I'd argue no one should really like any company at all . . ." Wise words! They can be hard to follow with smaller companies, because your heart pulls for the underdog. But the truth is that even people with their hearts in the right place can make a poor product, or even a really good product that just doesn't appeal to your particular tastes. I admit, I can't help liking Mantic; they launched Deadzone during a hard period in my life, right when I needed it. And BobtheInquistor and me are of one mind that if you want more variety in your sci-fi Aliens, Mantic is a goldmine. But like you, I'm now a jaded, or shall I say "experienced" Mantic customer. There's nothing Mantic currently sells that I want to buy. But that doesn't mean I won't keep an eye on what they come up with next.

If any of the above makes me a "Fanboy," well, with fanboys like me, Mantic couldn't stay in business. And while it's become a pleasurable challenge / side activity for me, I get that most people aren't going to want to spend time kitbashing minis they aren't already in love with.

Anyhow, glad to hear the Hellboy miniatures are good. I'm not going to invest in a Hellboy game, but if I get the chance to buy or trade for a few of the better looking monster minis (the frog creatures looked good,) I'll keep your words in mind.

Did the first Deadzone campaign give us the hard plastic Enforcers, Peacekeepers, GCPS and Asterian Marionettes? Those were all very solid plastic kits, with the enforcers being the weakest in my opinion.

I also love love love the restic Resistance minis from that campaign, especially the “happy feet” aliens and Teratons. I also love the Dreadball restic minis for converting. There are surprisingly many interesting aliens and armor designs covered. I hope someday they’ll make plastic Z’zor, Nameless or Teratons.

I also thought the Mars Attacks game was well written, so I’m surprised to hear that Deadzone was considered a bad game. But then, I don’t game like most wargamers. And I never pledge for Mantic games kickstarters for the actual games.

As for their most recent plastics, I think a lot of the dislike comes down to aesthetic choices rather than quality, although yes half the new plastics seem to have blurry side issues a decade after blurry side issues were presumed cured. While I think that’s easy to ignore or cover up with pouches and holsters, it’s a fair reason not to pledge or buy. There are other affordable plastics out there, or if you prefer to pay through the nose for GW quality that’s also fair. Personally, I’m happy with what I’ve received from Mantic over the years and would recommend them to anyone looking for decent quality minis who enjoys their aesthetics. If you’re looking for a fun game first, I would recommend other things.

plastic Enforcer, GCPS and Asterians were 2nd Edition Deadzone
1st had them all in PVC with the Plague being still solid models

1st Edition Deadzone was an ok game, I did not really liked it but other did

it changed with 2nd Edition and as it grow on me, those that loved 1st Edition did not really liked any of the changes
3rd is now a very solid game and for me one of the best skirmish games out there

so for Dungeon Saga Origins, Hellboy would be the game to compare it for models and rules
we can expect that DSO models will be similar quality to Hellboy and from the same material
rules wise the main difference is that DSO is designed to be an intro game hence no special dice like in Hellboy

here is another video, about design and game mechanics

I'll throw in my thumbs up for Mars Attacks as well. We had a ton of fun playing that one, and I too thought it was basically a Deadzone- lite.
I even played through some of the missions in the campaign book, which is an absolute rarity for me. Heck, I think someone in my family may still even have a copy of the core game. Might need to go borrow it.

Maybe it's time I try out 3E of Deadzone. Between myself and Barzam we've got an immense pile of terrain and multiple painted factions at this point.

I still kind of wish Vanguard had been more along the lines of Mars Attacks and Deadzone, rather than what we got.
Still eagerly anticipating seeing what this campaign will consist of!

Sarouan wrote:

 kodos wrote:

the Solo/Coop Stretch Goal in the KS (and so far the only planned unlock) will the AI as an App

Mantic "Don't you guys have phones ?!" Games.

We've established at this point you just have a personal grudge but you're outing yourself massively here - all the most popular dungeon crawlers use phone apps for their AI now to great effect. I doubt you play them if you think this is in any way a negative.

So the solo mode is App only? My interest in that game has now reached a zero.