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Saintspirit wrote:

Gorechild wrote:So do I, thanks for the suggestion seapheonix
I'll try and write up a full entry for them thats along those lines a bit later.

Waht do you reckon would be best, AP4 or 5? I'm leaning towards 4, purely to keep their cost down.

How would a better AP keep the cost down?

Brain fart. I meant AP5


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swooping Hawks - xxx points
Unit size - 4 Swooping Hawks, 1 Exarch

Stats:
As now

Special Rules:
Aspect Warriors
Fleet

Unit Type:
Jump Infantry

Wargear:
Hawk Wings
Lasblaster ((is that its name? I hardly ever use them!) R18" S3 AP5 Assault 3)
Haywire Grenades (1=nothing 2-5=glance 6=pen)

Options:
Up to 5 Additional Swooping Hawks may join the unit for XX points each
The Exarch may take Hawks Talons (power weapon) for XX points
The Exarch may upgrade his Lasblaster to *can't think of name* (R18 S4 AP4 Assault 4) for XX points.

Exarch powers:
Sky leap - Unit gains the Hit and Run USR
*Cant think of a decent name* - Unit never required any more than 4+ to hit a vehice when using grenades.

Aspect Warrior- A unit with the "Aspect Warrior" Special rule can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength (rather than the usual 50%), all other conditions that prevent a unit from regrouping still apply.

Hawk Wings- If a model with Hawk wings moved during the movement phase, they may not be assaulted by enemy models until the start of the next eldar turn (as long as they don't move again next turn!). If a model with Hawk Wings chooses to assault and remains locked in combat at the end of their assault phase, other enemy units may assault them during their turn. If they moved in the preceding movememt phase, all enemy cover saves from a model with hawk wings are decreased by 1 (4+ becomes 5+ for example). This commanding vantage point makes the swooping hawks an easy target, as a result any cover save taken by the swooping hawks is also decreased by 1"

I would say make Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks different points class. Having two similar priced choices in the FoC-slot is just bad design.
Why? It will always end up in the question of which unit is ultimately the best. Rather make Swooping Hawks cheaper, I'd say, so we won't end up on the question of Warp Spiders > Swooping Hawks?
Also, I like the idea of them never touching the ground, but if they lose 1 point of cover save, you need to really make them a shooty/deadly unit and IMO, S3 in an Eldar army is... not really that useful, not even if you get a lot of shots. If we are up against a Horde, we bombard them with templates, and the occassional storm of DA volleys. At least make their weapons S4 so that they won't end up wounding on a 5+ against a LOT of enemies.

Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees are the same point cost and both elite's, is that bad design? My point is, as long as the role of the two units is different, there shouldn't be any overlap between them even if they cost the same number of points.

Spiders (if thay have the monofilament rule as discussed) would make a great harrasment unit for bogging down the enemy, the hawks would (IMO) provide an alternative to fire dragons for anti-tank whilst maintaining some decent anti GEQ shooting ability, They'd be particularly good at surrounding transports. It would free up the Elite squad from dragon spam and make room for the CC units to see the light of day.

Hawks would be the bane of armies like nids and orks, as you could keep moving around infront of your shooty units and prevent them from being able to assault. Spiders would be particularly good against IG blobs or ork hordes because of the vast number of dangerous terrain tests they'd have to take. I think they'd compliment eachother really well, not compete with eachother, ymmv though.

Good point, good point.
Still, I think SH should have S4

I just think if they have S4 they will become a jack of all trades. If they have the ability to cut down waves of orks/nids/IG with them and take on AV14 and help screen the rest of your army from assaults, they automatically don't fit into the whole aspect warrior idea of having one very focused role.

...Point.

Despite the potential slowdown, I like converting their lasrifle into a grenade launcher with two modes of firing:

Assault 1 18" Small Blast S3 AP6
Assault 1 18" Haywire Grenade.

Yes I understand it will slow down the game but the blast template preserves the power of the large blast drop down
and the haywire grenade preserves their AT capability. Both without exposing them to CC.

Change the abilities to:

Wings of baharoth: All SH get a 5++ invulnerable save due to their unorthodox and hard to follow movement.

Skyleap: In lieu of normal movement any SH can be deep striked to anywhere on the board with a 1D6 scatter.

This gets rid of the yo-yo hawk stupidity and the small blast templates remove the need for the large blast template when entering the board.

But isn't a "barrage" (I know it's not necessarily going to follow that rule) of 9-10 small blasts a bit OP?

With 2 base attacks on aspect warriors (i.e. upgrading them to veterans, essentially), Banshee vs Scorpion matchup against light infantry looks like this. I'll add in poison scorps (where Mandiblasters confer 4+ poison instead)

Imperial Guard:
B: 3x0,333 chance of slaying. 0,296 chance of failing.
S: 4x0,296 chance of slaying. 0,245 chance of failing.
PS: 3x0,395 chance of slaying. 0,222 chance of failing.

Orks:
B: 3x0,222 chance of slaying. 0,471 chance of failing.
S: 4x0,278 chance of slaying. 0,272 chance of failing.
PS: 3x0,417 chance of slaying. 0,199 chance of failing.

Marines:
B: 3x0,167 chance of slaying. 0,579 chance of failing.
S: 4x0,083 chance of slaying. 0,709 chance of failing.
PS: 3x0,125 chance of slaying. 0,670 chance of failing.

What's interesting to note here is that a Banshee has an oddly high chance of failing to kill an equally costly Marine on the assault. The Banshee vs Marine stat can be used for current assaulting Banshee vs defending Marine, the Banshee is meant to kill Marines specifically. While the Marine is a multi-purpose unit, possibly more geared for ranged combat.
The poison Scorp is more of a hold-its-own unit, better suited for infiltrating, but not so good for synergising with Farseers.

So, essentially, my idea for the day: Mandiblasters add poison, instead!

Although, a Marine only has 1x0,133 of killing the Banshee, I suppose...

I'm unsure how you've done your calculations on the Scorps counter the Poison Scorps.
Because if we say that a Poisoned Mandiblaster makes your Scorpions Poisoned (4+), then they would theoretically be a worse than the current scorpions at attacking ANYTHING with T4 or below, unless you intend to also give them the usual +1 attack in addition to giving them poisoned.
But even in that case, regular scorps would be better against Guardsmen (S4 vs. T3 = 3+ to Wound, Poisoned (+4) vs. Anything = 4+ to Wound). The only time where Poisoned Scorps would really make a difference would be if they get into combat with opponents with a toughness of 5 or higher... and I don't see that happening too much. Scorpions are meant as anti-Horde where Banshees are meant as anti-MEQ. I just don't see Horde armies spamming units with T5. If you do happen to stumble upon a unit or two of T5 creatures (for example the DE Sslyth and Grotesques - though I doubt we'll see many of the latter), the Eldar codex already has plenty of ways to deal with those guys.
Bottom line: I don't think Scorpions need poison at all, unless it's 3+ and that would be slightly OP too.
Unless I've misunderstood something... if so, do notify me.

They get a re-roll to wound against T4 or below.

Why, is there a rule I don't know? *Scratches cheek* If so... sorry for ignorance.

Wooly wrote:But isn't a "barrage" (I know it's not necessarily going to follow that rule) of 9-10 small blasts a bit OP?

Admittedly, the small blast template goes up in power the more blob like the opponent is so say it touches 3 on average.
10 barrage templates with 3 touched on average is 30 hits, 10 wounds versus orks 15 against guard but the AP 6 means the flak jacket is in play so again 10 kills. Certainly it is better than a 24" Assault 2 S3 AP6 las blaster by about 33% but it is by no means OP.

The big thing to me is getting rid of the need to deep strike to use the S4 large blast template and all the silliness that that implies. Also by allowing them to use it as a haywire grenade launcher it gets rid of the need to assault with them. (i.e. suicide the unit to kill a vehicle.)

Striking Scorpions are a sneaky tough anti-horde unit.
I'd change them by giving them the stealth, move through cover, scout, and infiltrate USRs. Drop the point cost down to 12.
Alternatively, to keep their point cost the same, bump them up to strength 5 or give them rending (or s5 and a possible rending option via the exarch.) It's rare for a unit to have a wide disparity between strength and toughness, and goes well with the Eldar theme of fragile unit that really hits hard in the right role.

You'd have to change banshees as well, but they need changing anyway.

While rending makes sense on a unit that uses highly sophisticated chainswords, it does put Banshees out of work. Scorpions are as it is very effective against MEQ/TEQ when compared to Banshees and considering Scorpions aren't meant to be anywhere close to beating Banshees in that department.

Banshees need some way of gaining Furious Assault.

Perhaps instead of increasing the strength of the swooping hawks weapons, ad pinning? Doesn't affect the space marine style units with high leadership, but would reflect the; "Whoa! Where did that shot come from" of being attacked from the air. I think that would help slate them towards a bogging down large units job, while a CC group moves in to attack.

Spiders are more of a go kill large groups by themselves team, so that wouldn't be crossing over their purposes.

Anyway: Scorpions were already covered in the previous page and I do believe the result was quite alright.

@ Wooly: Yes and no. Scorpions were covered two pages ago summarily, and only really discussed in the scope of a mech list. Gorechild posted a summary of a few aspects which had Scorps get Infiltrate base and Banshees get Furious Charge. The problem is that the most commonly agreed upon codex-wide alteration is that aspect warriors are elite soldiers or veterans, and all elite soldiers and veterans in 5th edition codexes have 2 base attacks - this includes the direct equivalents in Codex: Dark Eldar.

seapheonix wrote:Perhaps instead of increasing the strength of the swooping hawks weapons, ad pinning? Doesn't affect the space marine style units with high leadership, but would reflect the; "Whoa! Where did that shot come from" of being attacked from the air. I think that would help slate them towards a bogging down large units job, while a CC group moves in to attack.

Spiders are more of a go kill large groups by themselves team, so that wouldn't be crossing over their purposes.

The problem with the rule of pinning is that it's ineffective by it's own right. It is hardly ever useful and doesn't stack up. Most units have some way of getting better than a fair chance of succeeding a morale roll, and this includes the low-morale armies, and when you are struck en-masse with these attacks they don't really make the morale check more difficult or more numerous, only more certain that you'll have to roll your two dice - unless you happen to be immune to morale, pinning, fear, prone, etc.
Ironically, it almost seem like Marines are more vulnerable to pinning that the hordes of trash.

I'd personally say that Swooping Hawks are best to simply copy-paste Dark Eldar Haywire Blaster. Instant decent anti-tank role. 0,444 chance of glancing and 0,111 chance of penetrating per aspect warrior and round of shooting. BOTH Exarch powers would have to be remade, though.

I'd personally say that Swooping Hawks are best to simply copy-paste Dark Eldar Haywire Blaster. Instant decent anti-tank role. 0,444 chance of glancing and 0,111 chance of penetrating per aspect warrior and round of shooting. BOTH Exarch powers would have to be remade, though.

Sounds to me like the way to go. That gives a tank hunter in FA, leaving some place for other choices in Elite apart from Fire Dragons. Won't compete with Spiders as they are anti-infantry.
For the Exarch powers I would say
Turbo Booster (has already been suggested)
The usual intercept power or tank hunters.

Saintspirit wrote:

I'd personally say that Swooping Hawks are best to simply copy-paste Dark Eldar Haywire Blaster. Instant decent anti-tank role. 0,444 chance of glancing and 0,111 chance of penetrating per aspect warrior and round of shooting. BOTH Exarch powers would have to be remade, though.

Sounds to me like the way to go. That gives a tank hunter in FA, leaving some place for other choices in Elite apart from Fire Dragons. Won't compete with Spiders as they are anti-infantry.

This makes a lot of sense, with Spiders performing an anti-infantry role and Hawks covering anti-tank (just not to the same degree as FD's), Would it then make sense for Shining Spears to do anti-TEQ/MC? A few high strength power weapon attacks and maybe a short range AP2 shot? I can't remember if we've been through this before or if it was just something I had been thinking over

Gorechild wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:

I'd personally say that Swooping Hawks are best to simply copy-paste Dark Eldar Haywire Blaster. Instant decent anti-tank role. 0,444 chance of glancing and 0,111 chance of penetrating per aspect warrior and round of shooting. BOTH Exarch powers would have to be remade, though.

Sounds to me like the way to go. That gives a tank hunter in FA, leaving some place for other choices in Elite apart from Fire Dragons. Won't compete with Spiders as they are anti-infantry.

This makes a lot of sense, with Spiders performing an anti-infantry role and Hawks covering anti-tank (just not to the same degree as FD's), Would it then make sense for Shining Spears to do anti-TEQ/MC? A few high strength power weapon attacks and maybe a short range AP2 shot? I can't remember if we've been through this before or if it was just something I had been thinking over

Yes. That should be their role. I never understood why the shooting of the laser lance is Ap4.

We've been through it, but nothing solid's been done. Shining Spears is a difficult one, though, since they are so fragile and costly that they risk breaking either their own usefulness (current) or becoming too good.

I think a good middle ground would be, among others, an exarch power which allows during a consolidation move, the unit may opt for a Hit and Run move which do not require an initiative test.

That would then leave Vypers (are we going for the 2W T5 jetbike approach?) as a fast scouting heavy weapons platform. That would give each unit in the slot a distinctive role and cover two or three things that would remove the dependence on FD's. It wouldn't make Dragons needless, but if you can get them to the point when you only really need 1 unit to nuke the biggest badest tank on the board, then I think its a great success.

Simply having them (Vypers) as Jetbikes would be sufficient in my mind, since this would effectively give them a firepower increase at fully upgraded. Whether increased wounds and toughness over normal jetbikes matters less, I should say, as the effect would be cheaper Vypers if the lower toughness is kept.
With an increased toughness the current cost should be retained as this would make them more durable than the current incarnation, but with a more normal jetbike stat the cost ought to decrease some since this leaves them vulnerable to lasguns, and Tau melee, among other things.

This also leaves room for Hornets, should they make it, although Hornets challenge Falcons.

Havent seen any creative ideas in this thread, and all the creative ieas ive thrown out havent been mentioned by the original poster.

Smitty0305 wrote:Havent seen any creative ideas in this thread, and all the creative ieas ive thrown out havent been mentioned by the original poster.

Nice Idea, he should pay more attention to this trolling

Maybe some sort of system where by units gain bonuses for each unit they kill.

cheapbuster wrote:Maybe some sort of system where by units gain bonuses for each unit they kill.

Bright Points?

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

cheapbuster wrote:Maybe some sort of system where by units gain bonuses for each unit they kill.

Bright Points?

yeah, and a unit that gives them out to friendly units when it causes wounds...

No, Power from Pain does not suit Craftworld Eldar at all. If you really wish to troll, please do it on some other forum.