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 cincydooley wrote:
I was being a bit facetious, but I see what you're saying.

Bear in mind this hasn't ever been a gun issue in my mind. The situation could have just as easily happened with a knife.

Hey what this guy did was totally legal and I'll argue you to a standstill defending him in court. We get rather patriotic over our knife crime over here...

 LordofHats wrote:

hate to blame the victim here, but if Martin doesn't initiate the altercation and instead goes straight to where he's staying, there's not even a case.

You can blame Martin for attacking Zimmerman, but you can also blame Zimmerman for chasing Martin. "Don't blame the victim" is a stupid way of looking at a lot of situations. So don't feel bad

I know what you're saying, but the big issue with this is that Martin attacking Zimmerman is illegal, but Zimmerman following Martin is not.

I think Zimmerman is probably a coward and a wanna be cop. I also think he probably had no intent to kill Martin. I'd go a step further and say that Zimmerman did some irresponsible and reckless things. But I think the verdict in this case was the correct one.

WTF!? Someone please tell me that this is photoshopped.


o.O

O.o

And now that you bring it up, I think Jenteal may be the most inept witness since Kato Kaelin. The fact that the prosecution put her on the stand is a testament to how weak a case they had.

Lynch Oil; Fueling Your Success

 Hordini wrote:



I know what you're saying, but the big issue with this is that Martin attacking Zimmerman is illegal, but Zimmerman following Martin is not.

And as I said several times in this thread reverse the situation. Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin kills Zimmerman. Stand Your Ground defense is claimed, which only requires that Martin fear for his life. Funny how the case just isn't simple.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Lynch Oil; Fueling Your Success

Okay... so the company is real... but, I mean... c'mon..

For real?

unless Jeantel is now a reliable witness) but I guess I should just take that people will accept hersay when it suits their point of view.

I'd say she was an excellent witness for the defense.

Testifying to what she heard him say is not "hearsay". Just in case the definition escapes you as we'll as its correct spelling.

Presumably its the founder's surname, though shall we not take this off topic looking up inappropriate surnames, or discussion the origins of said surname? =P

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Lynch Oil; Fueling Your Success

That's an ironically unfortunate name XD OT, I saw a similar name on my way to Kansas earlier this month: Rapist Attorney at Law. It's bad enough you're named 'Rapist' by your family but really, don't use it to name you're business

 LordofHats wrote:

 Hordini wrote:



I know what you're saying, but the big issue with this is that Martin attacking Zimmerman is illegal, but Zimmerman following Martin is not.

And as I said several times in this thread reverse the situation. Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin kills Zimmerman. Stand Your Ground defense is claimed, which only requires that Martin fear for his life. Funny how the case just isn't simple.

But he didn't claim stand your ground did he? I thought they didn't?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
I'd say she was an excellent witness for the defense.

Testifying to what she heard him say is not "hearsay". Just in case the definition escapes you as we'll as its correct spelling.

So we'll believe her on the parts that make Martin look bad but not on the parts where she makes Zimmerman look bad? She was all over the place in her testimony. nothing she says can really be taken as useful to determining what happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Hordini wrote:



I know what you're saying, but the big issue with this is that Martin attacking Zimmerman is illegal, but Zimmerman following Martin is not.

And as I said several times in this thread reverse the situation. Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin kills Zimmerman. Stand Your Ground defense is claimed, which only requires that Martin fear for his life. Funny how the case just isn't simple.

But he didn't claim stand your ground did he? I thought they didn't?

I checked back on it; Basically, Zimmerman first filed for a SYG defense (before he had a lawyer) but media commentators talked in depth about how that was a bad decision as his pursuit of Martin made SYG illegitimate. His lawyer upon being hired promptly withdrew the filing and simply had him plead not guilty.

I mean Martin though. The completely absurd part of this case is how willfully people ignore that Zimmerman's actions were threatening. It's not unreasonable to suspect Martin feared for his life, and had this situation turned out differently and Zimmerman died I wonder what the reaction would have been.

How about you re-watch her entire time on the stand and come back and say she is 110% reliable as a witness

But it begs the question if Martin "feared for his life" then why did he stop and confront Zimmerman? Plus, his cracker stalker comment doesn't really support that.

What parts would that be?

The part where she assumed the phone went dead because Z attacked her? (Objection:supposition)

Or the part where she thought he was a rapist?

Either one is fine with me. Just shows her quality as a witness. (For the defense)

Mark O’Mara took time of his post-verdict press conference to chastise the media for its handling of this case.

“Two systems went against George Zimmerman that he can’t understand: you guys, the media. He was like a patient in an operating table where a mad scientists were committing experiments on him and he he had no anesthesia,” an agitated O’Mara said after a reporter asked if Zimmerman ever showed emotion. “He didn’t know why he was turned into this monster, but quite honestly you guys had a lot to do with it. You just did. Because you took a story that was fed to you and you ran with it, and you ran right over him. And that was horrid to him.

“Then he comes into a system that he trusts — let’s not forget, six voluntary statements, voluntary surrender — and he believes in a system that he really wanted to be a part of, right? And then he gets prosecutors that charge him with a crime that they could never, ever, prove. … So those two systems failed him.”

ZING! Dayum!

Here's the full press conference:

 cincydooley wrote:
But it begs the question if Martin "feared for his life" then why did he stop and confront Zimmerman? Plus, his cracker stalker comment doesn't really support that.

We don't know that he died. It's equally plausible he made a snap decision to hide thinking Zimmerman (who was in a truck at the time) would just drive by the alley, not see him, and keep going. When that didn't happen who knows what he thought.

 LordofHats wrote:

I mean Martin though. The completely absurd part of this case is how willfully people ignore that Zimmerman's actions were threatening. It's not unreasonable to suspect Martin feared for his life, and had this situation turned out differently and Zimmerman died I wonder what the reaction would have been.

Lordo... TM had four minutes to get away...

To me, that was the most powerful part of the case when the defense elaborated on that part...

Four minutes.

The defense press conference was awesome. Both of them just destroyed the media.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Hordini wrote:



I know what you're saying, but the big issue with this is that Martin attacking Zimmerman is illegal, but Zimmerman following Martin is not.

And as I said several times in this thread reverse the situation. Zimmerman follows Martin, Martin kills Zimmerman. Stand Your Ground defense is claimed, which only requires that Martin fear for his life. Funny how the case just isn't simple.

That's not how self-defense works. There has to be an immediate threat of death or grievous bodily injury, and the act of following someone does not justify deadly force. If Martin killed Zimmerman and claimed that he feared for his life because Zimmerman was following him, he would have been convicted. If Zimmerman had approached Martin with a drawn weapon, then there would potentially be a case for self-defense on the part of Martin. You can't kill or attack someone just for following you and then claim self-defense, no matter if you say "I feared for my life" afterwards.

No... He is dead. Really.

 whembly wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

I mean Martin though. The completely absurd part of this case is how willfully people ignore that Zimmerman's actions were threatening. It's not unreasonable to suspect Martin feared for his life, and had this situation turned out differently and Zimmerman died I wonder what the reaction would have been.

Lordo... TM had four minutes to get away...

To me, that was the most powerful part of the case when the defense elaborated on that part...

Four minutes.

So? I don't expect everyone under duress to respond with complete cool and objective reasoning. He could have been sitting there praying to god, or he could have been sitting there hoping to beat some guy's butt for chasing him around. We don't know. It has no bearing on whether Zimmerman behaved recklessly.

 LordofHats wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

I mean Martin though. The completely absurd part of this case is how willfully people ignore that Zimmerman's actions were threatening. It's not unreasonable to suspect Martin feared for his life, and had this situation turned out differently and Zimmerman died I wonder what the reaction would have been.

Lordo... TM had four minutes to get away...

To me, that was the most powerful part of the case when the defense elaborated on that part...

Four minutes.

So? I don't expect everyone under duress to respond with complete cool and objective reasoning. He could have been sitting there praying to god, or he could have been sitting there hoping to beat some guy's butt for chasing him around. We don't know. It has no bearing on whether Zimmerman behaved recklessly.

And we truly don't know if GZ behaved recklessly... none of us were there and no witness could truly attest to that.

There has to be an immediate threat of death or grievous bodily injury, and the act of following someone does not justify deadly force.

A man chasing you in the middle of the night in a truck and then leaving that truck to continue pursuit doesn't bode well for anyone's safety. Unless we're being willfully dense, it's absurd to act as though Martin wasn't in a situation where he could rightfully fear for his life.

Also see that only the living party can tell they're story; I.E. Zimmerman had a gun on him. Martin can easily claim after the fact Zimmerman threatened him. For all we know he did threaten Martin (especially since its hard for Martin to go for a gun he doesn't know is there).

It's almost like the case isn't simpl] no matter how much people try to weasel around it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

And we truly don't know if GZ behaved recklessly... none of us were there and no witness could truly attest to that.

Do you automatically assume everyone in a hoodie must be up to no good, call the cops, and after supposedly taking instructional courses to be a watch captain that say not to follow suspects follow the suspect? Everything Zimmerman did that night was reckless and ironically people love ignoring that.

 LordofHats wrote:

There has to be an immediate threat of death or grievous bodily injury, and the act of following someone does not justify deadly force.

A man chasing you in the middle of the night in a truck and then leaving that truck to continue pursuit doesn't bode well for anyone's safety. Unless we're being willfully dense, it's absurd to act as though Martin wasn't in a situation where he could rightfully fear for his life.

Also see that only the living party can tell they're story; I.E. Zimmerman had a gun on him. Martin can easily claim after the fact Zimmerman threatened him. For all we know he did threaten Martin (especially since its hard for Martin to go for a gun he doesn't know is there).

It's almost like the case isn't simpl] no matter how much people try to weasel around it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

And we truly don't know if GZ behaved recklessly... none of us were there and no witness could truly attest to that.

Do you automatically assume everyone in a hoodie must be up to no good, call the cops, and after supposedly taking instructional courses to be a watch captain that say not to follow suspects follow the suspect? Everything Zimmerman did that night was reckless and ironically people love ignoring that.

No matter how many people like or dislike the verdict, it's done and twisting the story to how you see fit isn't going to do anything.

 Rented Tritium wrote:
At this point, I don't really care what happens. My complaints stopped when he went to actual trial. I'll be fine with whatever result a fair trial produces.

I agree here.

Read my previous posts where I accept the verdict and as I stated even before the virdict, not illegal != right and I admitted my own uncertainly as to whether Martin committed a crime at the same time I voiced my distaste with his actions.

I object to people willfully ignoring how mess up the situation really is. I'm twisting the story? How do you know Zimmerman isn't twisting the story? The only other person who knew for certain what happened is dead and rather than questioning what happened because we really should be, people just go 'murica and guns self defense hur!' It's ridiculous. People should really be asking if society should accept this scenario as acceptable and we should be asking how someone can be killed like this. It's a pointless meaningless death spawned by an unusual series of events, but for whatever reason no one seems to give a damn.

 LordofHats wrote:

There has to be an immediate threat of death or grievous bodily injury, and the act of following someone does not justify deadly force.

A man chasing you in the middle of the night in a truck and then leaving that truck to continue pursuit doesn't bode well for anyone's safety. Unless we're being willfully dense, it's absurd to act as though Martin wasn't in a situation where he could rightfully fear for his life.

There is no way that deadly force would be justified just on the basis of Zimmerman following Martin. If Martin had a gun, he could not just turn and shoot Zimmerman for following him.

I am not saying there is no possibility that could stem from Zimmerman following Martin in which Martin might justifiably be able to defend himself, but I don't think there is any point in which deadly force would just justified simply for the act of following someone.

 whembly wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

I mean Martin though. The completely absurd part of this case is how willfully people ignore that Zimmerman's actions were threatening. It's not unreasonable to suspect Martin feared for his life, and had this situation turned out differently and Zimmerman died I wonder what the reaction would have been.

Lordo... TM had four minutes to get away...

To me, that was the most powerful part of the case when the defense elaborated on that part...

Four minutes.

The autopsy report about Martin's brain and liver showng signs of deterioration consistant with lean consumption, and the information about the violence a partaker is prone to were interesting. I never even heard of lean before this, much less knew it was made mixing skittles, a drink such as iced tea, and codine together. That information possibly makes the skittles and iced tea take on a bit of a different meaning considering he walked more than a mile either way in the rain just to get them.

All that being said, it was a messed up situation that could have been possibly avoided if both parties had their heads out of their butts.