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Msolve wrote:
Hello there, so I have a question about Neutron Onagers. I'm building a couple and was wondering whether or not to add the second cognis heavy stubber. So my question is if i have the extra heavy stubber can it and the one connected to the neutron laser shoot at an infantry unit or whatever and the neutron laser shoot at a tank OR does the connected heavy stubber have to shoot at what the Neutron laser shoots at. Thanks!

You can add one extra stubber. Each weapon can shoot at a different target.

You should not add that stubber though. You will have 2-3 Neutron Crawlers in a list, and those 16-24 points can go into your screen instead.

Jaynen wrote:
I think the Neutron comes with the stubber, but I don't think its an extra one. So I don't think you end up with 2 stubbers?

Also I just picked up a couple starter boxes (2) can anyone help me out with understanding how I should setup my skiitari especially weapons wise? I was already planning on splitting them into groups of 5 an doing 2 sets of ranges with each one arquebus, and 2 sets of 5 vanguard

If you're doing casual, low-point armies, then Vanguard are actually pretty good. Two words: Plasma Caliver. I would do squads of five with as many Plasma Calivers as possible; the other Vanguard should pretty much be naked, but if you face a lot of shooty armies, the Omnispex might be nice. Overcharge the Plasma to melt through stuff. Keep them near a TPD so they can reroll 1s. You can also have two Neutron Crawlers; get one Icarus if any of your friends have Tau or Eldar. Great for blowing up vehicles and shelling your opponents from afar.

One of them is Tau, so maybe I should do one Neutron and one Icarus

So don't add the stubber to either? Or don't add it to the Neutron ones?

If I have two starter boxes I think I can set them up as either Rangers or Vanguard. I was going to do some rangers and some vanguard for the sniper rifles. But it looks like both troops can technically take them?

So if i am reading this right I would
4x Skitarii Rangers, 1 Transuranic Arquebus, 1 Plasma Caliver
1x Ranger Alpha (what does he come with stock? (looks like pistols and melee)
Do the above twice

4x Skitarii Vanguard, 2 Plasma Caliver
1x Vanguard Alpha (same questions as above)
Do the above twice

1 Onager Icarus Array
1 Onager Neutron Laser+Stubber

What about the Omnispex or Data Tethers?

Tech Priest take the Eradication Beamer and Macrostubber?

Jaynen wrote:
One of them is Tau, so maybe I should do one Neutron and one Icarus

So don't add the stubber to either? Or don't add it to the Neutron ones?

If I have two starter boxes I think I can set them up as either Rangers or Vanguard. I was going to do some rangers and some vanguard for the sniper rifles. But it looks like both troops can technically take them?

So if i am reading this right I would
4x Skitarii Rangers, 1 Transuranic Arquebus, 1 Plasma Caliver
1x Ranger Alpha (what does he come with stock? (looks like pistols and melee)
Do the above twice

4x Skitarii Vanguard, 2 Plasma Caliver
1x Vanguard Alpha (same questions as above)
Do the above twice

1 Onager Icarus Array
1 Onager Neutron Laser+Stubber

What about the Omnispex or Data Tethers?

Tech Priest take the Eradication Beamer and Macrostubber?

Icarus totally wrecks battlesuits. Be sure to deploy in such a way that they don't get too close though (at least 3" and at most 9" away from your vehicles, with no area to deep strike). Fusion Blasters are 18" Assault weapons, and at half-range, they melt vehicles pretty fast.

I would not add Stubber to anything.

I would do one unit of:

1x Skitarii Ranger Alpha
4x Skitarii Ranger - 2 Transuranic Arquebus

For the Vanguard, the numbers you decide depend on if you intend to scale up. At higher point values, Vanguard are pretty bad and only the vanilla builds have any use. Another decision is whether or not to take Omnispex. It's good against people camping in cover, but I generally leave it at home.

3 Alphas, 9 Carbine, 3 Caliver (you can make two units of vanilla Vanguard with this)
3 Alphas, 6 Carbine, 6 Caliver (if you don't care about scaling)

If you want Omnispex, your options are:
3 Alphas, 6 Carbine, 2 Carbine+Omnispex, 4 Caliver (one unit of vanillas, two units of dual Caliver plus Omnispex)
3 Alphas, 3 Carbine, 6 Caliver, 3 Omnispex (full-blown Calivers and Omnispexes)

The TPD should be the cheapest possible build.

In terms of what we will play here I don't know how much we will scale.

In terms of potential purchases I know that I want one set of 2 Kastellans with the Data dude, a Cawl for HQ, and then maybe some rust stalkers/infiltrators

Can I build the starter box as two 5 man vanguard by default? IE I have parts for 3 alpha vanguards?

I see the reason for the 3 Caliver is so when I only want to run 2 sets of 5 blandguard I already have the models

I will end up with two TPD models if I wanted to keep one naked and one with stuff on it

Jaynen wrote:
In terms of what we will play here I don't know how much we will scale.

In terms of potential purchases I know that I want one set of 2 Kastellans with the Data dude, a Cawl for HQ, and then maybe some rust stalkers/infiltrators

Can I build the starter box as two 5 man vanguard by default? IE I have parts for 3 alpha vanguards?

I see the reason for the 3 Caliver is so when I only want to run 2 sets of 5 blandguard I already have the models

I will end up with two TPD models if I wanted to keep one naked and one with stuff on it

I think it comes with three Alpha heads. One with a lateral helmet crest, one with an anterior helmet crest, and one with the goggles and spikey bits poking out. (Someone correct me if I am misremembering or mistaken; I've never bought a Getting Started box.)

Suzuteo wrote:

Jaynen wrote:
In terms of what we will play here I don't know how much we will scale.

In terms of potential purchases I know that I want one set of 2 Kastellans with the Data dude, a Cawl for HQ, and then maybe some rust stalkers/infiltrators

Can I build the starter box as two 5 man vanguard by default? IE I have parts for 3 alpha vanguards?

I see the reason for the 3 Caliver is so when I only want to run 2 sets of 5 blandguard I already have the models

I will end up with two TPD models if I wanted to keep one naked and one with stuff on it

I think it comes with three Alpha heads. One with a lateral helmet crest, one with an anterior helmet crest, and one with the goggles and spikey bits poking out. (Someone correct me if I am misremembering or mistaken; I've never bought a Getting Started box.)

You are exactly correct on the head load out, the skitarii are very easy to mix and match and make some nice alphas that stick out.

I also like to say how much I appreciate this thread and the ad mech community. I took a long hiatus from the game, and upon returning I decided something new would hit the spot and the skitarii getting started set had me hooked, but so did this thread. The last competitve game I played ended with me winning a codex: planetstrike and a starter set of my choosing. Upon coming back it was awesome to find this thread and the admech players from around the world. I especially appreciate the folks who don't play cawl. I understand the efficiency but I'm a bit of a sucker for fluff and I love that you make armies work around him. once again no hate towards him (I understand he's a obvious take in competitive settings) but my gaming group does no special characters period so it was wonderful to see.

 Aaranis wrote:

But I'd just not play with the guys who makes that kind of list to be honest, what I'm looking for in Warhammer is to have fun games where we simulate a battlefield with loads of units fighting each other, not to see how long my army resists to 5 Stormravens while one of the greatest swordsman of the Imperium hides in a bunker, I want my games to look credible.

To be fair, one of the greatest swordsmen of the Imperium made it a point to hide in a bunker whenever possible. (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ciaphas_Cain)

I'd also say, for anyone assembling Vanguard or Rangers, to use the un-helmeted (not specifically Vanguard or Ranger) heads in to box for your special weapons or omnispexes, that way you can use them with either Rangers or Vanguard as the need arises.

 Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote:
I'd also say, for anyone assembling Vanguard or Rangers, to use the un-helmeted (not specifically Vanguard or Ranger) heads in to box for your special weapons or omnispexes, that way you can use them with either Rangers or Vanguard as the need arises.

So build the two Transqueric Arqubues with non helmet dudes? Or the plasma Cavaliers?

Jaynen wrote:

 Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote:
I'd also say, for anyone assembling Vanguard or Rangers, to use the un-helmeted (not specifically Vanguard or Ranger) heads in to box for your special weapons or omnispexes, that way you can use them with either Rangers or Vanguard as the need arises.

So build the two Transqueric Arqubues with non helmet dudes? Or the plasma Cavaliers?

Both if there are enough heads. I can't recall how many come in the box, but it's at least two or three.

I don't see a use to the Vanguards to equip them with Arquebuses though, the synergy is better with the Rangers because of the longer range of their guns.

I would only use the un-helmeted head for a special weapon. The guy with the Omnispex still has to carry a Carbine or Rifle. And if you're playing tourney rules, then you might have to have WYSIWYG.

I am gearing up for the last two weeks of my FLGS Escalation League. Here is the list I am pondering for Week 6 and the 2000pt Tournament that will follow:

HQ:
Cawl
[250]

Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]

(5) Sicarian Infiltrators
Flechette & Tasers
[130]

Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus, Omnispex
[107]

(5) Vanguard
2x Plasma Calivers, Arc Maul
[83]

Fast Attack:
Ballistarii
Lascannons
[95]

Heavy:
(4) Kastelan Robots
[440]

(2) Kastelan Robots
[220]

(2) Kastelan Robots
[220]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[143]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]

[2000]

Thoughts? Think it will survive my rather competitive environment?

Drop some robots and vanguard upgrades and get more bodies or you'll, heh, get bodied. You have to have at least 15 dudes to screen a first turn charge.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Drop some robots and vanguard upgrades and get more bodies or you'll, heh, get bodied. You have to have at least 15 dudes to screen a first turn charge.

More details needed. Who will be getting a T1 charge and how? It seems unlikely. My metagame is much more oriented to flyer spam, Guard, and Marines. We do have a few 'Cron, Tau and Ork players too.

 Aaranis wrote:
I don't see a use to the Vanguards to equip them with Arquebuses though, the synergy is better with the Rangers because of the longer range of their guns.

I certainly agree for right now. I think it would be more of a future flexibility option if things change down the road.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Drop some robots and vanguard upgrades and get more bodies or you'll, heh, get bodied. You have to have at least 15 dudes to screen a first turn charge.

More details needed. Who will be getting a T1 charge and how? It seems unlikely. My metagame is much more oriented to flyer spam, Guard, and Marines. We do have a few 'Cron, Tau and Ork players too.

Well flyer spam is a little dead atm. But I have 2 nids players, turn 1 goes like this: tyranocite with swarmlord, trygons with genestealers and gaunts, mawloc. Turn 2 the other part of the horde is already in charge range

Orks and Marines actually might find it advantageous to get into CC with your dudes. Way better than trying to outshoot you.

rvd1ofakind wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Drop some robots and vanguard upgrades and get more bodies or you'll, heh, get bodied. You have to have at least 15 dudes to screen a first turn charge.

More details needed. Who will be getting a T1 charge and how? It seems unlikely. My metagame is much more oriented to flyer spam, Guard, and Marines. We do have a few 'Cron, Tau and Ork players too.

Well flyer spam is a little dead atm. But I have 2 nids players, turn 1 goes like this: tyranocite with swarmlord, trygons with genestealers and gaunts, mawloc. Turn 2 the other part of the horde is already in charge range

Not sure we have any 'Nid players locally, which is a shame because the army is so cool looking.

I can't imagine a basic screen of my Vanguard and Rangers can't keep them back for a turn. That is all about deployment at that point - using my 12" long band of Vanguard and my 15.6" long band of Rangers to screen my front line out about ~5" from my stuff, so even if they get the first turn charge, they can't reach me on consolidation (ideally).

Suzuteo wrote:Orks and Marines actually might find it advantageous to get into CC with your dudes. Way better than trying to outshoot you.

They got to get there. That is the challenge - mostly for Orks. If I get even one solid turn in Protector, I am tossing 108 shots, 81 likely hitting due to Cawl's re-rolls. Which equates to 54 dead Orks in a single round. Not exactly something I think most Ork armies can handle. Then Overwatch will net me another 21 dead Orks. 75 dead Boyz in a turn is usually a fair chunk of whatever horde they might bring. No cover, no armor - unless they bring a KFF or some such. Still winds up being an awful lot of punishment and that is before Icarus shots.

Marines tend to do better, but don't usually have the numbers. I flat out tabled my last Marine opponent off weight of dice on turn 4 with just two Robots (lower point game). At 2k with eight Robots, I can't imagine how staggering it will be against more elite armies on weight of dice alone.

Alright everyone, finalizing my list for BAO right now and thought I'd throw it up here and see what you all thought, if you don't mind.

Super-Heavy Auxillary Detachment:
Knight Crusader: RFBC, Gatling, Stormspear, 585 points.

Vanguard Detachment:
HQ - Space Wolves Rune Priest, bolt pistol, runic armor, runic axe - 91 points
Elite - Culexus Assassin - 85 points
Elite - Elysian Special Weapons Team, 3 plasma guns, 3 lasguns - 51 points
Elite - Elysian Special Weapons Team, 3 plasma guns, 3 lasguns - 51 points

Spearhead Detachment:
HQ - Cawl - 250 points
Troop - 5 vanguard - 50 points
Troop - 7 vanguard - 70 points
Elite - Cybernetica Datasmith - 52 points
Heavy - 2 Kastellan Robots, full phosphor - 220 points
Heavy - 2 Kastellan Robots, full phosphor - 220 points
Heavy - Onager Dunecrawler, iccarus - 130 points
Heavy - Onager Dunecrawler, neutron + cognis heavy stubber - 143 points

Total - 1998 points

The idea being to use the vanguard as a small screen and relying on the knight to fill in important gaps in the line. I split the robots into 2 units since having 1 unit of 3 ended up being dragged into melee too much due to small mistakes on spacing in my part. 2 units should be more forgiving. The culexus and both elysian team deep strike and add much needed mobility in early/mid game for random maelstrom needs (also linebreaker). The rune priest I'm still on the fence about. I like having the ability to case 2 spells instead of just 1 from Greyfax, and I also like the SW psyker powers more, but I'm definitely willing to switch him out for greyfax.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
I am gearing up for the last two weeks of my FLGS Escalation League. Here is the list I am pondering for Week 6 and the 2000pt Tournament that will follow:

HQ:
Cawl
[250]

Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]

(5) Sicarian Infiltrators
Flechette & Tasers
[130]

Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus, Omnispex
[107]

(5) Vanguard
2x Plasma Calivers, Arc Maul
[83]

Fast Attack:
Ballistarii
Lascannons
[95]

Heavy:
(4) Kastelan Robots
[440]

(2) Kastelan Robots
[220]

(2) Kastelan Robots
[220]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[143]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]

Onager Dunecrawler
Icarus Array, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
[130]

[2000]

Thoughts? Think it will survive my rather competitive environment?

It will not. To many robots. Id drop 2-3 of them for more troop units.

Orks can get you turn one, killing 10 guys easily then you are locked in CC and its game over. I saw a list like this and have used one like it myself. Id never go over 6 robots, and even then I think its to many robots.

Guard spam with 19 las cannons will also get you if they go first. Every robot lost is a lot less guys you will kill, and you wont be able to hit his las cannons as they will be out of your range.

str00dles1, I have shrugged off a lot of lascannon shots. They usually get one good round of shooting to neutralize my robots before I delete their units. Guard have awful saves, get no cover, and are T3. If I go first, I usually drop those squads first, because they can randomly kill a Robot in one shot (rarely). Taking less Robots means I will feel the loss even more - because right now I can lose four and still have four, which is enough to light up a whole lot of stuff.

Also, looking at the deployment maps, I just fail to see how they can reach me if I deploy wisely. I have plenty of range on my guns - I don't need to be tight to my front line with anything. So I think the idea that they can get a T1 charge relies entirely on my own deployment more than it being a guaranteed thing.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
str00dles1, I have shrugged off a lot of lascannon shots. They usually get one good round of shooting to neutralize my robots before I delete their units. Guard have awful saves, get no cover, and are T3. If I go first, I usually drop those squads first, because they can randomly kill a Robot in one shot (rarely). Taking less Robots means I will feel the loss even more - because right now I can lose four and still have four, which is enough to light up a whole lot of stuff.

Also, looking at the deployment maps, I just fail to see how they can reach me if I deploy wisely. I have plenty of range on my guns - I don't need to be tight to my front line with anything. So I think the idea that they can get a T1 charge relies entirely on my own deployment more than it being a guaranteed thing.

Orks will bring a Wierdboy and use Da Jump, and 'Ere We Go to have a pretty good shot at a first turn charge anywhere 9" away from you. Tyranids and others have similar tricks as well. How have you found the Knight? I haven't had one justify it's extreme cost yet.

 Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
str00dles1, I have shrugged off a lot of lascannon shots. They usually get one good round of shooting to neutralize my robots before I delete their units. Guard have awful saves, get no cover, and are T3. If I go first, I usually drop those squads first, because they can randomly kill a Robot in one shot (rarely). Taking less Robots means I will feel the loss even more - because right now I can lose four and still have four, which is enough to light up a whole lot of stuff.

Also, looking at the deployment maps, I just fail to see how they can reach me if I deploy wisely. I have plenty of range on my guns - I don't need to be tight to my front line with anything. So I think the idea that they can get a T1 charge relies entirely on my own deployment more than it being a guaranteed thing.

Orks will bring a Wierdboy and use Da Jump, and 'Ere We Go to have a pretty good shot at a first turn charge anywhere 9" away from you. Tyranids and others have similar tricks as well. How have you found the Knight? I haven't had one justify it's extreme cost yet.

If they are 9" from my Skitarii (because that is what I will put out in front of my lines), they will be over 12" from my Robots (ideally), because of how I will deploy them. Even if they erase my Skitarii with shooting, they can't make the charge even on boxcars. That is why I am not as fearful of T1 charges, because you can guard against it. I know I can cluster most of my army up into a small footprint (not including Ongagers, which might wind up anchoring a side) and a 27" long band of models should wrap around this enough to deny said charge and I can always anchor with the Ballistarii too, adding another bubble of no-go.

The 'Nids worry me more. A Hive Tyrant with Wings in a Tyrannocite could get into my stuff pretty fast and they sling some nasty, high damage attacks. Trygon enabling some Troops squads (Stealers...) also would be an issue.

Can't bring LoW in this league, so no time with a Knight yet. When my next league kicks off, there is no restriction so I will likely bring one (or maybe go for three...).

@em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.

Suzuteo wrote:
@em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.

If things are looking really grim, the Elysian special weapon team can stand in front of people and die about as well as vanguard, only 51 points. But I see your point, this list is very very screening-light, though it is obviously slanted toward the strategy of shooting them as much as possible with artillery.

 ph34r wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
@em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.

If things are looking really grim, the Elysian special weapon team can stand in front of people and die about as well as vanguard, only 51 points. But I see your point, this list is very very screening-light, though it is obviously slanted toward the strategy of shooting them as much as possible with artillery.

There are way too many good deep strike and CC threats to not take screening seriously. Furthermore, we've seen that Kastelan spam lists do not work in tournaments, so I do not think there is any reason to believe that we will find more success with them.

Suzuteo wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
@em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.

If things are looking really grim, the Elysian special weapon team can stand in front of people and die about as well as vanguard, only 51 points. But I see your point, this list is very very screening-light, though it is obviously slanted toward the strategy of shooting them as much as possible with artillery.

There are way too many good deep strike and CC threats to not take screening seriously. Furthermore, we've seen that Kastelan spam lists do not work in tournaments, so I do not think there is any reason to believe that we will find more success with them.

We have seen what? One tournament done by a slew of WAAC players with terrible spam lists in a wonky format? Sorry, I am not taking any tourney results with anything less than a truckload of salt until we get a few months deep in the edition. Way too early still.

Suzuteo wrote:@em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.

In theory, they can. Sure. Not much I can do about that even if I take a whole bunch of Skitarii. They are pretty awful. I would need to run legit Conscript blobs to block that off, which I won't do because they have no official model, defeat the purpose of my army (not going for huge model count) and are off-theme and out of faction. That looks to be a major issue for our faction and it sounds like we will need to be extremely smart about deployment. Ensuring we set up on the table so we can have our Skitarii forward behind LoS blocking terrain will help keep them from being shot off the board and still give us a bubble that pushes deep strikers back.

Whats the general opinion on Ruststalkers/infiltrators.

Worth having both?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:
@em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.

If things are looking really grim, the Elysian special weapon team can stand in front of people and die about as well as vanguard, only 51 points. But I see your point, this list is very very screening-light, though it is obviously slanted toward the strategy of shooting them as much as possible with artillery.

There are way too many good deep strike and CC threats to not take screening seriously. Furthermore, we've seen that Kastelan spam lists do not work in tournaments, so I do not think there is any reason to believe that we will find more success with them.

We have seen what? One tournament done by a slew of WAAC players with terrible spam lists in a wonky format? Sorry, I am not taking any tourney results with anything less than a truckload of salt until we get a few months deep in the edition. Way too early still.

Suzuteo wrote:@em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.

In theory, they can. Sure. Not much I can do about that even if I take a whole bunch of Skitarii. They are pretty awful. I would need to run legit Conscript blobs to block that off, which I won't do because they have no official model, defeat the purpose of my army (not going for huge model count) and are off-theme and out of faction. That looks to be a major issue for our faction and it sounds like we will need to be extremely smart about deployment. Ensuring we set up on the table so we can have our Skitarii forward behind LoS blocking terrain will help keep them from being shot off the board and still give us a bubble that pushes deep strikers back.

I don't think it's the spam itself that loses. It's lists without screens that lose. We've seen them in our own local play and at the tournament level.

It's not theory. If you go to the Ork threads, they are very well aware that Da Jump and Ere We Go for a virtually guaranteed deep strike charge is amazingly good. (Remember, it teleports ANY Ork infantry unit, including stuff like Meganobz.) In fact, after one or two games getting shot up by Kastelans, any player will learn that getting virtually anything into CC with a Kastelan is a high priority. My personal fear is Coldstar Commander, which can advance 40" past my screen, shoot because of Mont'ka, and then punch my Kastelan in the face (he's safe for one turn because Protector stops me from falling back); next turn, fall back and shoot again thanks to Fly.

My solution is to use Dragoons and Crusader with Shroudpsalm to screen. I am of the belief that things that don't want to get into CC should not be used as a screen because sometimes, the best way to stop a charge is to charge yourself first.