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The Eldar are beatable. It's tough. They are killy with their 8th lists. I'm fine with tough.

 Marmatag wrote:
The Eldar are beatable. It's tough. They are killy with their 8th lists. I'm fine with tough.

Overpowered serpents are just bad form, though. It'd be novel to fear the Falcon again.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Forgeworld.

<snip>

The local necron player said he uses something with the Deceiver, Monolith, Night Scythe, and Zandrekh to achieve turn-1 charges everywhere.

Yeah. I tend to no play against forgeworld, which means that any math involving searchlights has a problem: Not every opponent is going to let you use them.

Some people, like me, won't because Forgeworld has a history of producing even more broken crap than GW does.

Others won't because they know it can either give them and advantage, or negate one of yours (WAAC players).

I don't count searchlights, at the moment, because being able to use them at all is up to your opponent.

And I feel that if conscripts are OP, bringing FW into the conversation is just disingenuous.

Also, yes. The Deceiver can allow you to mass deepstrike. If you're running a basic phalanx it's possible to get two full warrior blocks with cryptek support into rapid fire range at the beginning of turn one. On top of which, the C'Tan are beatsticks.

Also, if he really wants to, the deceiver himself can kill 1/6th of a conscript squad by himself every turn, and there's nothing you can do about it short of killing him.

There's not always a choice to play against FW or not. Some tournaments allow it, and that's that.

 Arandmoor wrote:

And I feel that if conscripts are OP, bringing FW into the conversation is just disingenuous.

Yes this is fair; I am not a fan of FW. If they would have been a part of the playtesting I would be okay with them.

 Marmatag wrote:
The Eldar are beatable. It's tough. They are killy with their 8th lists. I'm fine with tough.

So are conscripts and artillery.



If I introduced you to a unit that took about a hundred boltgun shots to erase, could kill a about 1 space marine a turn at range and 2 up close and in melee, was virtually immune to morale, and cost between 130 and 160 points, you wouldn't be upset if it was only ten models.

Or how about a unit that takes just under a hundred boltgun shots to kill, can kill 2-3 Space Marines a turn, and is a psyker to boot, for 125 points, but is only 5 models?

And this is what I'm saying here: 40 Conscripts take about 120 un-buffed boltgun shots to reliably erase, and can kill about 1-3 Space Marines a turn [but not in melee, where they're harmless], are virtually immune to morale, and cost 120 points, but are 40 models instead of 10 or 5.


And when you add in the cost of the Commissar, since they're not actually morale-proof without him, and extra conscript squad size, those other two units, who are still basically morale proof, increase in resiliency to 140 shots for 14 models at 182 points and 162 shots for 9 models at 185, while the conscripts are 150 shots for 50 models at 180 points.


That's why I don't believe you when you say that they're "too tough". That's why I think that the upset-ness is just because they're an uncomfortable obstacle for the otherwise absolutely face-wrecking strategies of mass deepstrike or mass turn-1 melee. They're not to tough [and without Orders and Searchlights, they're not too killy], for their points, other units out there are just as tough for their cost, and sometimes pack even more firepower. You're not upset at those units, though, because they don't get in the way of deepstrikers and turn-1 melee troops,



So that's the way I see it, and that's why it's hard to be civil. Conscripts aren't the only unit out there that has this toughness-per-point and firepower-per-point combination, and none of the other ones are a source of complaints. The source of complaints is about how they take up space, and because they take up space, they serve as an obstruction to a strategy that would otherwise, and classically did but never should have, wiped everybody off the table.

Martel732 wrote:
There's not always a choice to play against FW or not. Some tournaments allow it, and that's that.

But at tournaments, you're expected to counter cheese with cheese.

The real balance problems are in more causal games because you don't want your block of 50 conscripts to get people to stop playing with you.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The Eldar are beatable. It's tough. They are killy with their 8th lists. I'm fine with tough.

So are conscripts and artillery.



If I introduced you to a unit that took about a hundred boltgun shots to erase, could kill a about 1 space marine a turn at range and 2 up close and in melee, was virtually immune to morale, and cost between 130 and 160 points, you wouldn't be upset if it was only ten models.

Or how about a unit that takes just under a hundred boltgun shots to kill, can kill 2-3 Space Marines a turn, and is a psyker to boot, for 125 points, but is only 5 models?

And this is what I'm saying here: 40 Conscripts take about 120 un-buffed boltgun shots to reliably erase, and can kill about 1-3 Space Marines a turn [but not in melee, where they're harmless], are virtually immune to morale, and cost 120 points, but are 40 models instead of 10 or 5.


And when you add in the cost of the Commissar, since they're not actually morale-proof without him, and extra conscript squad size, those other two units, who are still basically morale proof, increase in resiliency to 140 shots for 14 models at 182 points and 162 shots for 9 models at 185, while the conscripts are 150 shots for 50 models at 180 points.


That's why I don't believe you when you say that they're "too tough". That's why I think that the upset-ness is just because they're an uncomfortable obstacle for the otherwise absolutely face-wrecking strategies of mass deepstrike or mass turn-1 melee. They're not to tough [and without Orders and Searchlights, they're not too killy], for their points, other units out there are just as tough for their cost, and sometimes pack even more firepower. You're not upset at those units, though, because they don't get in the way of deepstrikers and turn-1 melee troops,

You're skipping a critical step in your analysis, but at least you aren't being dismissive and providing fairly specific information.

Marines, at least BA, can't get the boltguns in range intact. And if they do manage for one blob, by the time they redeploy for the second, the whole list is crippled by the other 1500 pts of IG. Wyverns and Manticores are undercosted, which snowballs with the conscripts also being undercosted, imo.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
The Eldar are beatable. It's tough. They are killy with their 8th lists. I'm fine with tough.

So are conscripts and artillery.



If I introduced you to a unit that took about a hundred boltgun shots to erase, could kill a about 1 space marine a turn at range and 2 up close and in melee, was virtually immune to morale, and cost between 130 and 160 points, you wouldn't be upset if it was only ten models.

Or how about a unit that takes just under a hundred boltgun shots to kill, can kill 2-3 Space Marines a turn, and is a psyker to boot, for 125 points, but is only 5 models?

And this is what I'm saying here: 40 Conscripts take about 120 un-buffed boltgun shots to reliably erase, and can kill about 1-3 Space Marines a turn [but not in melee, where they're harmless], are virtually immune to morale, and cost 120 points, but are 40 models instead of 10 or 5.


And when you add in the cost of the Commissar, since they're not actually morale-proof without him, and extra conscript squad size, those other two units, who are still basically morale proof, increase in resiliency to 140 shots for 14 models at 182 points and 162 shots for 9 models at 185, while the conscripts are 150 shots for 50 models at 180 points.


That's why I don't believe you when you say that they're "too tough". That's why I think that the upset-ness is just because they're an uncomfortable obstacle for the otherwise absolutely face-wrecking strategies of mass deepstrike or mass turn-1 melee.

You seriously need to stop with this.

Here's what a conscript blob really is.

Cheesemonster
S3
T3
BS5+, WS5+
Save 5+
50 Wounds
Special Rule: Kraft Nonsense - any this unit would receive a damage total greater than 1, reduce it to 1.
Special Rule: Mac N' Cheese - at the end of every battle round, Cheesemonster suffers 1 mortal wound.
Special Rule: String Cheese - You cannot move past Cheesemonster. Cheesemonster is allowed to draw a large section of the board which is considered to be occupied, for the purposes of movement, and deep strike.

Wargear:
Cheesemonster has the following gun profile: Cheeze Wizz cannon - 24", Rapid fire 20, strength3, ap0, 1dmg
Cheesemonster has the following attack profile in melee: Cheese Knife - 30 attacks, strength user, 0 ap, 1 damage.

Cheesemonster is a troop choice for the purposes of force organization.

Cheesemonster costs 180 points.

For the purposes of scoring and securing objectives, cheesemonster counts as 1 unit, with models equal to his number of remaining wounds.

Lay off on Kat a bit; they're being more respectful than Mel or the menagerie in the other thread.

"you wouldn't be upset if it was only ten models. "

I'd be LESS upset, because I could maneuver around it much easier.

I like Katherine. I'm just a salty person. I will be less salty. Sorry Kat.

I mean I can boil this down to something fundamental: DC should wreck conscripts. DC don't wreck them. Something is wrong.

Martel732 wrote:
I mean I can boil this down to something fundamental: DC should wreck conscripts. DC don't wreck them. Something is wrong.

That's because DC is full of rabid crazy, and Conscripts are a really, really big chew toy rather than a snack.

 Arandmoor wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I mean I can boil this down to something fundamental: DC should wreck conscripts. DC don't wreck them. Something is wrong.

That's because DC is full of rabid crazy, and Conscripts are a really, really big chew toy rather than a snack.

It's because 3 pt/wound can't be overcome with the amount of dice marines can throw.

Martel732 wrote:
You're skipping a critical step in your analysis, but at least you aren't being dismissive and providing fairly specific information.

Marines, at least BA, can't get the boltguns in range intact. And if they do manage for one blob, by the time they redeploy for the second, the whole list is crippled by the other 1500 pts of IG. Wyverns and Manticores are undercosted, which snowballs with the conscripts also being undercosted, imo.

I can go back to being dismissive! At least you realized that the other two units were Tactical Marines and Rubric Marines, respectively.

Conscripts can't reach your line intact either, and your shouldn't be able to reach the line intact. If you could reliably reach the gunline with forces intact gunline wouldn't be a viable strategy! Remember that only a quarter of a full-melee army can basically obliterate three-quarters to the entirety of a full-shooting army.

Marmatag wrote:
You seriously need to stop with this.

Here's what a conscript blob really is.

Cheesemonster
S3
T3
BS5+, WS5+
Save 5+
50 Wounds
Special Rule: Kraft Nonsense - any this unit would receive a damage total greater than 1, reduce it to 1.
Special Rule: Mac N' Cheese - at the end of every battle round, Cheesemonster suffers 1 mortal wound.
Special Rule: You cannot move past Cheesemonster. Cheesemonster is allowed to draw a large section of the board which is considered to be occupied, for the purposes of movement, and deep strike.

Wargear:
Cheesemonster has the following gun profile: Cheeze Wizz cannon - 24", Rapid fire 20, strength3, ap0, 1dmg
Cheesemonster has the following attack profile in melee: 30 attacks, strength user, 0 ap, 1 damage.

Cheesemonster is a troop choice for the purposes of force organization.

Cheesemonster costs 180 points.

For the purposes of scoring and securing objectives, cheesemonster counts as 1 unit, with models equal to his number of remaining wounds.

I could reduce all of that to the following unit:

Obstacle, 180 points.
This unit has no guns.
This unit does not have a wound count. At the end of any opponent movement phase, she may skip her fight phase [she may still charge] to have this unit removed from the battlefield.
When this unit is set up, mark an area totalling up to 80 square inches. No enemy model can enter this area, and no enemy model may be set up within 9" of this area when deep striking.


And it would achieve precisely the same effect, and be considered OP, even though it does literally nothing but present an obstacle to mass deepstrike and mass fast-melee lists from winning.




Again

"Conscripts can't reach your line intact either, and your shouldn't be able to reach the line intact. If you could reliably reach the gunline with forces intact gunline wouldn't be a viable strategy! "

But I need to in order to be able to chop though that many wounds. That's why the IG is busted right now. The math people is providing involves full tac squads are whatever. Remnants of squads can't do a thing to conscripts.

I agree with you, but other gunlines don't have 100 spare wounds for 300 pts. Conscripts raise my temporal costs too high for any aspect of my list to be viable. Conscripts never have to move really, if they are deployed on objectives. They don't even have to shoot to contribute. They just have to BE.

"nothing but present an obstacle to mass deepstrike and mass fast-melee lists from winning."

More like an insurmountable obstacle to keep melee from EVER winning. That's the problem. You can't forget the temporal component here.

Martel732 wrote:
"Conscripts can't reach your line intact either, and your shouldn't be able to reach the line intact. If you could reliably reach the gunline with forces intact gunline wouldn't be a viable strategy! "

But I need to in order to be able to chop though that many wounds. That's why the IG is busted right now. The math people is providing involves full tac squads are whatever. Remnants of squads can't do a thing to conscripts.

I agree with you, but other gunlines don't have 100 spare wounds for 300 pts. Conscripts raise my temporal costs too high for any aspect of my list to be viable. Conscripts never have to move really, if they are deployed on objectives. They don't even have to shoot to contribute. They just have to BE.

"nothing but present an obstacle to mass deepstrike and mass fast-melee lists from winning."

More like an insurmountable obstacle to keep melee from EVER winning. That's the problem. You can't forget the temporal component here.

Oh my god, no you don't. First of all, you have guns on your transports, so they're going to be somewhat depleted once you reach them, unless you're turn-1 charging, in which case your forces are fully intact, and if you're using transports you're almost guaranteed to have a lot of melee troops make it to the front line anyway. Second, with a little bit of choosing targets to actually support your army, even more of them can make it to the front line. Finally, it only takes about 25% of a full-melee force to kill off 75% of a full-ranged force.

I've lived this. You're not quite right. You need a lot more than 25% surviving BA to chop through conscripts and then be able to get to the objective and/or move on to the tanks.

Quit ignoring the temporal component.

Transports reduces the maximum possible chop in your list, and gives optimal targets for IG anti-tank. Stranded squads can be ignored.

Bottom line, mech lists don't have enough bodies, pure infantry take too many losses vs IG. The weapons on transports don't do enough damage to matter when we are talking a target number of at least 100+ wounds.

There is no guarantee of any melee troops ever making it past conscript lines. That's the problem. Every turn, they back out of combat and the other 1500 pts of IG shoot the piss out of you.

Comparing everything by how many bolter shots it takes to kill is a bit disingenuous. How many bolter shots does it take to kill a Rhino? And how many lascannon shots? There are more efficient ways to kill pretty much everything in the game than bolters, but there aren't many efficient ways to kill T3 5+ models quickly. Hence the problem.

We've also been completely ignoring that one of the mandatory HQ picks is probably going to be a chapter master equivalent.

So everything within 6" of that model, which can easily be the bulk of the assault force, is going to have something like an 89% hit rate. And the chapter master himself is probably quite a beatstick.

Tetengo wrote:
Comparing everything by how many bolter shots it takes to kill is a bit disingenuous. How many bolter shots does it take to kill a Rhino? And how many lascannon shots? There are more efficient ways to kill pretty much everything in the game than bolters, but there aren't many efficient ways to kill T3 5+ models quickly. Hence the problem.

Look, I'm only using bolters because people keep pimping tac marines as a "solution". Most tac damage comes from bolters. That's why. It's also a pretty efficient weapon vs conscripts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
We've also been completely ignoring that one of the mandatory HQ picks is probably going to be a chapter master equivalent.

So everything within 6" of that model, which can easily be the bulk of the assault force, is going to have something like an 89% hit rate. And the chapter master himself is probably quite a beatstick.

I have never used Dante. So, they're not mandatory. And they'd just die alongside everyone else anyway. Your hit rate is 0% when you are dead before assault.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

If I introduced you to a unit that took about a hundred boltgun shots to erase, could kill a about 1 space marine a turn at range and 2 up close and in melee, was virtually immune to morale, and cost between 130 and 160 points, you wouldn't be upset if it was only ten models.

I am assuming this is supposed to be a theoretical "equivalent to conscripts" unit, so with that in mind let me compare it to standard buffed 50 strong conscripts...

100 boltgun shots is 67 hits, 67 hits for 44 wounds, 15 saves means 29 dead. Plus one for morale. 20 are still alive. The unit is not "erased" by "about 100" shots.

If there are basic buffs assumed for this I'm sorry, I don't know what I'm supposed to count as auto-include. For the conscripts, I always count frfsrf and searchlights because that's what I deal with locally (and I always include it in the points cost when I math-hammer).

In return, to kill one space marine, we need 3 wounds before saves, which takes 9 hits, which means 18 shots, which means 9 conscripts at long range.


In the end, compared to a buffed 50 Conscripts for 200 points (taken in pairs for 401 points with all buffs), whatever unit you're describing is about 60% less resilient and 82% less deadly, for 20-35% less points. Conscripts are way, WAY more efficient than whatever it is you're describing here.

They literally cannot be targeted by shooting until every last model in your assault force is dead, including the Rhinos. The chapter master is going to be the very last thing to die.

If you spent half the time thinking of a way to make your list work that you spend moping about it not working, maybe you would have already fixed your list by now!

5+ armor in a 3pt model is another part of the problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
They literally cannot be targeted by shooting until every last model in your assault force is dead, including the Rhinos. The chapter master is going to be the very last thing to die.

If you spent half the time thinking of a way to make your list work that you spend moping about it not working, maybe you would have already fixed your list by now!

Unlikely. I spend a lot of time list building. In fact, I'm doing it right now.

I can handle if Guard end up being a hard counter to marines.

But then, I would expect that some Xenos armies rip Guard to shreds with the same ease that Guard rips me to shreds.

I'm fine being rock. Provided scissors, or it's equivalent, exists.

If you only compare the durability of conscripts and MEQ when fired upon by lasguns or bolters you are doing the MEQ a favor. MEQ are considerably less durable per point vs things with AP like heavy bolters, gauss flayers or heavy phosphor blasters. The most efficient guns vs conscripts are way less efficient than the most efficient guns vs MEQ.

Martel732 wrote:

 Arandmoor wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I mean I can boil this down to something fundamental: DC should wreck conscripts. DC don't wreck them. Something is wrong.

That's because DC is full of rabid crazy, and Conscripts are a really, really big chew toy rather than a snack.

It's because 3 pt/wound can't be overcome with the amount of dice marines can throw.

Devastator Centurions and the new Aggressors disagree with you. SM were light on anti infantry firepower. Not so much anymore.

We've done the math on those. They still don't cut it because they won't survive the IG shooting phase in response.

 Arandmoor wrote:
the new Aggressors disagree with you.

They still aren't good at doing it because they lack deep strike. I think the only feasible way of getting enough of them close enough to fire is the new RG stratagem - assuming that the AM player hasn't blocked those deep strike areas with scout sentinels and that you get turn 1. Even if the AM player doesn't do that I still don't think it's viable since your aggressors will be sitting ducks afterwards.

If only there were a weapon that lays down a template and everything under it is automatically hit and also penetrates flak armor that has extremely short range.