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Made in au
Dakka Veteran





BrianDavion wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Breton wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Breton wrote:


Would you prefer to see all the Marine attacks go up a notch? Assault 6 goes to Assault 7 or 8 to make up for the lost rerolls? Rapid Fire 1 to Rapid Fire 2, and so on?


No, i'd like them to not have as many rerolls. Theyre already good even without them because of their higher rate of fire, strength and AP.


So you want them to get worse. Again, is your problem rerolls or Marines? We get rid of the rerolls, and just give them extra shots to make up for the lost value, and you don’t like that either, so it feels like rerolls is the excuse to nerf Marines.


It seems one persons "worse" is the majority's "Balanced" - again, same with Eradicators


Can we stop complaining about Eradicators being too strong. The codex is not even out yet. It is index 40k. Yes - they cost too little at present. It is undeniable. 2 melta shots for 40 points is insane. 1 for 40 points is pretty bad though. This antimarine sentiment is outrageous. Almost as outrageous as how bad marines were in 8th eddition before they got a real codex. 40% WR in competitive for 2 consecutive years. Where was the outrage then?

So many logic mistakes in this post I don't know where to start.

1. Space Marine win rates are always dragged down by virtue of being the "starter" faction that has the lowest level playerbase. Even when Space Marines are top 1 in the game we see this.



yes because we all know people buy a starter set and immediatly enroll in a major tourny.


I love these comments from people who have clearly never attended a tournament in their life. Seriously, actually go to one - just once - before making implications like the one you just did. There's ALWAYS a ton of players who are extremely casual or outright new. Tournaments are a great experience and great atmosphere for people of all skill levels. People go just to SPECTATE, this idea that players on their first army or new to their army aren't attending tourneys is a myth. That goes for most games. It's how I learned MTG, I knew I was gonna get the mop, I still went down every Friday and Saturday, interacted with the community, built up my collection, and learned the deeper aspects of the game and what I needed to do to improve. Even though it took months for me just to break the top half we all kept attending. I met players on a similar level to me, we became friends, practiced amongst each other and discussed what we needed to do to reach that dream of 1st place finish. Having tournament's available weekly is a newer phenomena for 40k, and it seems some players still sitting at home have a completely misguided idea of who is actually attending these things. Go to a major event, take a look at the lower tables, not just the top ones, and have a look at which army is most prevalent. Space Marines have the more entry level players than any other faction at every event, to dispute this is to completely misunderstand the amount of work GW has dedicated to achieving this goal over the years, the last 2 especially. Win rate as a statistic is an unreliable balance measure at the BEST of times (and just thinking about it for more than 10 seconds should tell you why), but even more so for SM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 08:41:00


 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

Breton wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Breton wrote:


Tell you what, make me a list. Make me a list that can Take All Comers. And doesn't use Captains, Lieutenants, Aggressors, Eradicators or Dakka Inceptors. Don't use any unit that gets more than 1 shot per 10 points. If you want, take the Cap/LT, we just not use the reroll rules. I'll be interested to see that. And don't worry I won't accuse you of making something up if you say drone instead of turret or something.


Why should i? What would it prove to you?
If it’s broken as you say, there should be an alternative that works. My brain doesn’t work the way everyone else’s does some things obvious to me aren’t to others, some things obvious to others are a mystery to me. So show me what I’m missing. Show me how a TAC Marine list deals with 250-350 models this game and 4 knights the next game without things like Aggressors, Inceptors, Eradicators, sideboards, or list tailoring.

We're agreeing about rerolls being the source of the problem btw, unless you're being sarcastic.
Um, neither. I’m not being sarcastic, and I don’t think rerolls/high volume of fire are exactly a problem. The same system that can allow Army A to take 45 minutes on movement will necessarily have to allow Army B to take 45 minutes to shoot at Army A. Complaining 30 minutes are spent on this unit, and 15 on these other 6 units, vs 5 minutes each on 9 units is really just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titianic.

The whole aggressor thing just exacerbates the issue with the sheer volume of fire they bring.
250 models is 8 PPM.

With Grots at 5 PPM, I don't think any list can manage that and be in any way effective.

But, even an army of 400 Grots (2,000 points) loses to 2,000 points of Intercessors armed with basic Bolt Rifles.

They get 200 shots at 30", at AP-1 and S4.
That's 400/3 hits
2,000/18 or 1,000/9 wounds, all of which punch through army
And 111 dead Grots, not accounting for Morale.

If the Grots move up, the Marines can move up and get Rapid Fire still by being in half range, plus a potential charge.

If all 400 Grots fire at the Intercessors, they get...

400 shots
200 hits plus 66 DDD shots, generating an extra 33 hits
78 wounds
26 failed saves
13 dead Intercessors, out of 100

And considering the Grots have worse movement and much, MUCH worse range... Yeah, all 400 firing in one turn ain't happening.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




This means tournaments in Australia are different from what I have seen or heard about. Because there are no new or casual players willing to spend a ton on money on a 1 day trip to a tournament, sometimes in another country, paying the entry fee just to get slaughtered 6 times and then go home. Or are we talking about store events here too?

The same happens with MtG, outside of drafs no one is going to pay for an event, if they know their expiriance is going to be getting beaten all day. It would be like paying for others to win.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





Karol wrote:
This means tournaments in Australia are different from what I have seen or heard about. Because there are no new or casual players willing to spend a ton on money on a 1 day trip to a tournament, sometimes in another country, paying the entry fee just to get slaughtered 6 times and then go home. Or are we talking about store events here too?

The same happens with MtG, outside of drafs no one is going to pay for an event, if they know their expiriance is going to be getting beaten all day. It would be like paying for others to win.


It's the same thing in US and UK by literally all accounts. I think as per usual, if there's an outlier here its probably on your end, karol. You gotta stop thinking your local area is at all representative of the scenes elsewhere, even inside your country. Plus didn't you say that YOU don't attend tournaments either? More lies?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 04:18:58


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Nitro Zeus wrote:


It's the same thing in US and UK by literally all accounts. I think as per usual, if there's an outlier here its probably on your end, karol. You gotta stop thinking your local area is at all representative of the scenes elsewhere, even inside your country. Plus didn't you say that YOU don't attend tournaments either? More lies?

I took part, in 2 store events over 3 years, but I don't take those. But I said multiple times, or at least I think I did, that at my old store there were people who went to tournaments, and the two brothers which convinced me to start w40k both ended up doing a lot of tournaments, so I played vs their eldar armies a lot. That is why I said from what I heard or seen, not what I played in myself. I don't see where the lies suppose to be here.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Karol wrote:
This means tournaments in Australia are different from what I have seen or heard about. Because there are no new or casual players willing to spend a ton on money on a 1 day trip to a tournament, sometimes in another country, paying the entry fee just to get slaughtered 6 times and then go home. Or are we talking about store events here too?

The same happens with MtG, outside of drafs no one is going to pay for an event, if they know their expiriance is going to be getting beaten all day. It would be like paying for others to win.


It's the same thing in US and UK by literally all accounts. I think as per usual, if there's an outlier here its probably on your end, karol. You gotta stop thinking your local area is at all representative of the scenes elsewhere, even inside your country. Plus didn't you say that YOU don't attend tournaments either? More lies?


Keep in mind I did say MAJOR tournments. Karol assuming that involves some travel honestly isn't unfair.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






BrianDavion wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Karol wrote:
This means tournaments in Australia are different from what I have seen or heard about. Because there are no new or casual players willing to spend a ton on money on a 1 day trip to a tournament, sometimes in another country, paying the entry fee just to get slaughtered 6 times and then go home. Or are we talking about store events here too?

The same happens with MtG, outside of drafs no one is going to pay for an event, if they know their expiriance is going to be getting beaten all day. It would be like paying for others to win.


It's the same thing in US and UK by literally all accounts. I think as per usual, if there's an outlier here its probably on your end, karol. You gotta stop thinking your local area is at all representative of the scenes elsewhere, even inside your country. Plus didn't you say that YOU don't attend tournaments either? More lies?


Keep in mind I did say MAJOR tournments. Karol assuming that involves some travel honestly isn't unfair.


So we go from "boo tournament- yuck.. tournament competitive players - yuck.." to "Major tournaments suck boooo... yuck..."

Some people drive 1hr+ just to play a game at weekend on a normal weekend.. Why is it unreasonable people would have to travel to a tournament?

Its as Nitro says... believe it or not many people go to tourneys of any and all size simply because its a way to spend an entire day playing with your army.. where normally you get in one game an evening.. you can get 3-4 during a tourney day if you have nothing better to do.. Some people take a fluffy army to see how well they can do with their fluffy army despite knowing the odds on them winning is non-existant to slim. But they still go to see how well they can general. I dont get why theres such a snobbery about this.. If I can get 4 games in with an army I spent months creating that's a good return on my investment lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 04:43:07


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
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 JNAProductions wrote:
250 models is 8 PPM.

With Grots at 5 PPM, I don't think any list can manage that and be in any way effective.
Not too long ago I was jumped all over for making a similar point. I used their model range with the low end dropped to 250 for a few reasons:
I knew someone would make the same point about 400 model count and it would entertain me to see it, so thank you.
2000 points is 250 boys, and as we just saw 200 points of intercessors will "table" 200 points of boys on average on turn 4 only if the boys never shoot back, never charge, and never fight where they get the advantage. As I said then that's probably a little slow, but its in the ball park.
Not everyone bought CA2020, and has the upgraded points.

But, even an army of 400 Grots (2,000 points) loses to 2,000 points of Intercessors armed with basic Bolt Rifles.

They get 200 shots at 30", at AP-1 and S4.
That's 400/3 hits
2,000/18 or 1,000/9 wounds, all of which punch through army
And 111 dead Grots, not accounting for Morale.

If the Grots move up, the Marines can move up and get Rapid Fire still by being in half range, plus a potential charge.

If all 400 Grots fire at the Intercessors, they get...

400 shots
200 hits plus 66 DDD shots, generating an extra 33 hits
78 wounds
26 failed saves
13 dead Intercessors, out of 100

And considering the Grots have worse movement and much, MUCH worse range... Yeah, all 400 firing in one turn ain't happening.


Oh yeah, that's why they get to make the TAC Marine list, and I get to pick the All Comers it'll be taken against. I was planning on one of the top finisher Ork lists, probably that Ghaz/Skarboyz list, and some sort of elite army probably not Custodes also from the finishers list(s). I was even going to look for a mixed list like mechanized guard or similar for a third successful army build type. Don't know if I'd find it, but I'd look.

My point is that those high Rate of Fire units allow the low model count armies to address high model count armies while still taking enough other more specialized units for alternate builds/purposes.

If someone can TAC in a Marine list without using those specialist units, those specialist units and rerolls are less vital to balance. If you can't, then it sounds like they're part of the Marine list balance and making them cheaper but less effective - or just across the board less effective - will disrupt that balance.

Now, I'd probably agree with someone who says the gulf of "power" between a 5point grot and a 50 point Custodian Guard is probably just way too large. But that's not a problem with Marines, Marines balance, Custode Balance, Ork balance, rerolls, or what have you - rather it's an issue with the size of the difference they're allowing between two models/armies/build types.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:


It seems one persons "worse" is the majority's "Balanced" - again, same with Eradicators



This is called a bandwagon appeal. It's the argument that the Earth is flat because there are so many people in the Society.


Ahh the old - I am right - everyone else is therefore wrong is better? A group of people can be right you know.



This is called a strawman - where you incorrectly restate the original argument into a more easily "defeated" premise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 06:42:37


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Breton wrote:


This is called a bandwagon appeal. It's the argument that the Earth is flat because there are so many people in the Society.


Ahh the old - I am right - everyone else is therefore wrong is better? A group of people can be right you know.



This is called a strawman - where you incorrectly restate the original argument into a more easily "defeated" premise.

Same as yours really?

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Breton wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:


It seems one persons "worse" is the majority's "Balanced" - again, same with Eradicators



This is called a bandwagon appeal. It's the argument that the Earth is flat because there are so many people in the Society.


Ahh the old - I am right - everyone else is therefore wrong is better? A group of people can be right you know.



This is called a strawman - where you incorrectly restate the original argument into a more easily "defeated" premise.


Since you've now done this twice in the same post I feel the need to point out to you that simply identifying that someone has used a logical fallacy does not in itself prove their argument wrong, nor your own argument correct. Identifying a fallacy is the first step on the path to countering someone's argument, not the last.

TBH, at this point I'm really not sure what the arguments in this thread are. All I'm getting is you don't seem to understand that people are using Aggressors to illustrate the re-roll problems because they're the worst offenders, not because they're the only offenders and not because they're a SM unit. Being a SM unit does allow them to get more re-rolls more easily than other armies, so that is a factor but the core complaint is aobut re-rolls in general slowing the game down. If all your examples are of things that never actually appear in a game (loads of Fire Warriors, for example) then they're not much use.
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator




Worth noting that 200 relloable dice is more dice than would be rolled in a complete game of epic.

Probably also more than would be rolled in an entire game of 3rd edition 40k.

Mannnnnnnyyyy more than in a game of Battlefleet Gothic or DnD.

More than a good game of Flames of War too.

There is no cause to need to roll 400 dice for one unit in any game system ever.

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Worth noting that 200 relloable dice is more dice than would be rolled in a complete game of epic.

Probably also more than would be rolled in an entire game of 3rd edition 40k.

Mannnnnnnyyyy more than in a game of Battlefleet Gothic or DnD.

More than a good game of Flames of War too.

There is no cause to need to roll 400 dice for one unit in any game system ever.


Off the cuff ideas:

10 shots, each hit = 20 hits (helps highlight how stupid that number is) is 1 option

10 shots or w/e but hits = d6 wound rolls which adds some random back in but with less dice

X shots at 5 damage and the wounds carry over on models with fewer than 3 wounds.

Lots of maths ways to juggle the numbers.

Edit: ooh low shot number but the number of hits applies to number of models in the unit, stops them blazing a tank down by tickling it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 11:50:56


 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Slipspace wrote:
Breton wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Breton wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:


It seems one persons "worse" is the majority's "Balanced" - again, same with Eradicators



This is called a bandwagon appeal. It's the argument that the Earth is flat because there are so many people in the Society.


Ahh the old - I am right - everyone else is therefore wrong is better? A group of people can be right you know.



This is called a strawman - where you incorrectly restate the original argument into a more easily "defeated" premise.


Since you've now done this twice in the same post I feel the need to point out to you that simply identifying that someone has used a logical fallacy does not in itself prove their argument wrong, nor your own argument correct. Identifying a fallacy is the first step on the path to countering someone's argument, not the last.
. He didn’t have an arguement. He posted a drive by fallacy but made no argument. Why would you pretend otherwise?

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in es
Crushing Clawed Fiend





A lot of people just argueing for the sake of the argument.

The amount of dice carried by a person has a limit, in my limited experience most people carry 20-30 dice, and having units firing more than 100 dice rerolling every one is exhausting, as they have to throw them wave after wave, counting, rerolling... it just breaks the immersion for me.

So in my opinion, the less rerolls the better, the rule should be a premium ability, not something every 50pt HQ in the game gives to everyone else.

The Bloody Sails
 
   
Made in de
Rough Rider with Boomstick






On models with good BS it is - in my personal impression - also not really worth the additional hassle compared to upping the BS by 1.

Chance to hit:
BS 3+: 66.7%
BS 3+, rerolling 1s: 77.8%
BS 3+, rerolling all misses: 88.9%
BS 2+: 83.3%.

So giving +1 to hit instead of rerolling 1s is "just" 5.5% better. Or alternativly just 5.6% worse than rerolling all misses. That is in the margin that can be tackled by price adjustments, while it would reduce the number of dice rolled.

Simulatously: on average "each sucessful hit roll scores two hits" comes out the same as "shoot twice", which would halve the number of dice rolled by Aggressors, Leman Russ, etc.
As would changing rapid fire to say "each successful hit within half range scores two hits", which would reduce the dice rolled by IG significantly.


What I'm saying by that: the statement "all those rerolls and shoot twice abilities bog the game down" does not have to mean nerfing the unit. If the offending fact is the number of dice rolled and the time consumed by that, the abilities could be reworded in a way that grants the same average bonus to firepower without increasing the number of rolled dice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 13:23:22


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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Worth noting that 200 relloable dice is more dice than would be rolled in a complete game of epic.

Probably also more than would be rolled in an entire game of 3rd edition 40k.

Mannnnnnnyyyy more than in a game of Battlefleet Gothic or DnD.

More than a good game of Flames of War too.

There is no cause to need to roll 400 dice for one unit in any game system ever.


Off the cuff ideas:

10 shots, each hit = 20 hits (helps highlight how stupid that number is) is 1 option

10 shots or w/e but hits = d6 wound rolls which adds some random back in but with less dice

X shots at 5 damage and the wounds carry over on models with fewer than 3 wounds.

Lots of maths ways to juggle the numbers.

Edit: ooh low shot number but the number of hits applies to number of models in the unit, stops them blazing a tank down by tickling it.

Or, here's an idea: since rerolling all hits is roughly the equivalent of having a BS2, just give them BS2. Price them appropriately. Nix the rerolls and find something better for characters to do besides screaming "SHOOT BETTER!" at anything within earshot.

Edit: Nijad by Pyroalchi.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 13:26:24


 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Worth noting that 200 relloable dice is more dice than would be rolled in a complete game of epic.

Probably also more than would be rolled in an entire game of 3rd edition 40k.

Mannnnnnnyyyy more than in a game of Battlefleet Gothic or DnD.

More than a good game of Flames of War too.

There is no cause to need to roll 400 dice for one unit in any game system ever.


Off the cuff ideas:

10 shots, each hit = 20 hits (helps highlight how stupid that number is) is 1 option

10 shots or w/e but hits = d6 wound rolls which adds some random back in but with less dice

X shots at 5 damage and the wounds carry over on models with fewer than 3 wounds.

Lots of maths ways to juggle the numbers.

Edit: ooh low shot number but the number of hits applies to number of models in the unit, stops them blazing a tank down by tickling it.

Or, here's an idea: since rerolling all hits is roughly the equivalent of having a BS2, just give them BS2. Price them appropriately. Nix the rerolls and find something better for characters to do besides screaming "SHOOT BETTER!" at anything within earshot.

Edit: Nijad by Pyroalchi.


All good and well but are you then advocating the bs2 with rerolls units to simply become auto hit?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 14:35:39


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Worth noting that 200 relloable dice is more dice than would be rolled in a complete game of epic.

Probably also more than would be rolled in an entire game of 3rd edition 40k.

Mannnnnnnyyyy more than in a game of Battlefleet Gothic or DnD.

More than a good game of Flames of War too.

There is no cause to need to roll 400 dice for one unit in any game system ever.


Off the cuff ideas:

10 shots, each hit = 20 hits (helps highlight how stupid that number is) is 1 option

10 shots or w/e but hits = d6 wound rolls which adds some random back in but with less dice

X shots at 5 damage and the wounds carry over on models with fewer than 3 wounds.

Lots of maths ways to juggle the numbers.

Edit: ooh low shot number but the number of hits applies to number of models in the unit, stops them blazing a tank down by tickling it.

Or, here's an idea: since rerolling all hits is roughly the equivalent of having a BS2, just give them BS2. Price them appropriately. Nix the rerolls and find something better for characters to do besides screaming "SHOOT BETTER!" at anything within earshot.

Edit: Nijad by Pyroalchi.

You've probably seen me be a broken record by saying you could give Vanguard Vets WS2+, Sternguard BS2+, and Terminators WS/BS2+, which would've been its own counter to stacking modifiers whilst helping differentiate the units besides "these Vets shoot and these ones take Jump Packs".

We could also just cost the Captain appropriately.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Worth noting that 200 relloable dice is more dice than would be rolled in a complete game of epic.

Probably also more than would be rolled in an entire game of 3rd edition 40k.

Mannnnnnnyyyy more than in a game of Battlefleet Gothic or DnD.

More than a good game of Flames of War too.

There is no cause to need to roll 400 dice for one unit in any game system ever.


Off the cuff ideas:

10 shots, each hit = 20 hits (helps highlight how stupid that number is) is 1 option

10 shots or w/e but hits = d6 wound rolls which adds some random back in but with less dice

X shots at 5 damage and the wounds carry over on models with fewer than 3 wounds.

Lots of maths ways to juggle the numbers.

Edit: ooh low shot number but the number of hits applies to number of models in the unit, stops them blazing a tank down by tickling it.

Or, here's an idea: since rerolling all hits is roughly the equivalent of having a BS2, just give them BS2. Price them appropriately. Nix the rerolls and find something better for characters to do besides screaming "SHOOT BETTER!" at anything within earshot.

Edit: Nijad by Pyroalchi.


All good and well but are you then advocating the bs2 with rerolls units to simply become auto hit?


Just give them better weapons in the case of custodes.
If youre talking about things like captains, they already won't be affected by the rerolls anyway.

Admech 5000
Drukhari 4000
2500
500
Imperial knights 1200

 
   
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 Nitro Zeus wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Breton wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Breton wrote:


Would you prefer to see all the Marine attacks go up a notch? Assault 6 goes to Assault 7 or 8 to make up for the lost rerolls? Rapid Fire 1 to Rapid Fire 2, and so on?


No, i'd like them to not have as many rerolls. Theyre already good even without them because of their higher rate of fire, strength and AP.


So you want them to get worse. Again, is your problem rerolls or Marines? We get rid of the rerolls, and just give them extra shots to make up for the lost value, and you don’t like that either, so it feels like rerolls is the excuse to nerf Marines.


It seems one persons "worse" is the majority's "Balanced" - again, same with Eradicators


Can we stop complaining about Eradicators being too strong. The codex is not even out yet. It is index 40k. Yes - they cost too little at present. It is undeniable. 2 melta shots for 40 points is insane. 1 for 40 points is pretty bad though. This antimarine sentiment is outrageous. Almost as outrageous as how bad marines were in 8th eddition before they got a real codex. 40% WR in competitive for 2 consecutive years. Where was the outrage then?

So many logic mistakes in this post I don't know where to start.

1. Space Marine win rates are always dragged down by virtue of being the "starter" faction that has the lowest level playerbase. Even when Space Marines are top 1 in the game we see this.



yes because we all know people buy a starter set and immediatly enroll in a major tourny.


I love these comments from people who have clearly never attended a tournament in their life. Seriously, actually go to one - just once - before making implications like the one you just did. There's ALWAYS a ton of players who are extremely casual or outright new. Tournaments are a great experience and great atmosphere for people of all skill levels. People go just to SPECTATE, this idea that players on their first army or new to their army aren't attending tourneys is a myth. That goes for most games. It's how I learned MTG, I knew I was gonna get the mop, I still went down every Friday and Saturday, interacted with the community, built up my collection, and learned the deeper aspects of the game and what I needed to do to improve. Even though it took months for me just to break the top half we all kept attending. I met players on a similar level to me, we became friends, practiced amongst each other and discussed what we needed to do to reach that dream of 1st place finish. Having tournament's available weekly is a newer phenomena for 40k, and it seems some players still sitting at home have a completely misguided idea of who is actually attending these things. Go to a major event, take a look at the lower tables, not just the top ones, and have a look at which army is most prevalent. Space Marines have the more entry level players than any other faction at every event, to dispute this is to completely misunderstand the amount of work GW has dedicated to achieving this goal over the years, the last 2 especially. Win rate as a statistic is an unreliable balance measure at the BEST of times (and just thinking about it for more than 10 seconds should tell you why), but even more so for SM.
I love how we have you around to tell us the competitiveness levels of everyone - including space marine players as a whole. You are the master of pretentious pseudo knowledge. There is some truth to what you say though. Space marines on the whole in 8th edition were played sparingly in comparison to those who have marine armies. Suggesting the majority of people who played in invents considerd them trash lvl. Because they were trash level. Ofc you are a space marine player yourself can agree to that? If you don't agree - can't see how anyone could take you seriously in the competitive environment. They are quite strong now but lots of events don't even factor them in the top 4. Considering they are always represented in high numbers it is clear evidence that they aren't as OP as the internet or dakka suggests.

You are also wrong about winrate. With enough data collected it is literally the best metric to determine army power lvl. Top tournament placements is the other.
Low win rate with high tournament placements suggests an army is random or difficult to play.
High winrate but low torny placements suggest the army has a bad matchup with another strong meta contender.
Low win rate and low tournament placements suggest they army is underpowered.
Obviously high winrate and high tournament placements suggest the army is overpowered.

Which category do marines fall in here in 8th?
Clearly the low/low category.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Annandale, VA

Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Or, here's an idea: since rerolling all hits is roughly the equivalent of having a BS2, just give them BS2. Price them appropriately. Nix the rerolls and find something better for characters to do besides screaming "SHOOT BETTER!" at anything within earshot.

Edit: Nijad by Pyroalchi.


All good and well but are you then advocating the bs2 with rerolls units to simply become auto hit?


Good lord yes. Rolling dozens of dice to see if any turn up the 2.78% possibility of failure (note: ten dice at 2+/re-roll 1s only have a 1-in-4 chance of any failing) is a perfect example of excessive rolling for negligible effect. If we're not going to consider whether having 97.2% hit rates is actually healthy for the game to begin with, just round it up to 100% and be done with it.
   
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UK

 Xenomancers wrote:


You are also wrong about winrate. With enough data collected it is literally the best metric to determine army power lvl. Top tournament placements is the other.
Low win rate with high tournament placements suggests an army is random or difficult to play.
High winrate but low torny placements suggest the army has a bad matchup with another strong meta contender.
Low win rate and low tournament placements suggest they army is underpowered.
Obviously high winrate and high tournament placements suggest the army is overpowered.

Which category do marines fall in here in 8th?
Clearly the low/low category.



You're saying that space marines have a low win rate, and low tournament placements?

Space Marines (according to the most recent analysis done, which doesn't take into account the tournaments in September but nothing much has changed in that time) were on a 52% win rate. So they were not low, they were slightly above average.

But that is for ALL space marines. If you break them down by army, then you start getting space marine armies with 71%, 69% and 61% win rates, wayyyyy above average and in fact the highest win rate of any army in the entire game by a large margin.

And as far as low placement goes, I'm not sure there's been many/any tournaments without a space marine army in the top 5. It probably has happened, but it certainly not the norm.

And this is with Space Marines having by far the most representation too (so more likely to be a mix of 'top' and 'casual' players dragging the averages down), with over 5x more armies in play than most of the other factions. (Over 10x more than most of the xenos armies).

So... yeh, I'm not sure if you were making a poor attempt to be sarcastic, or if you're just wrong. Marines are in the high win-rate and high-placements category. Even the worst of the marine subfactions is average-average at worst. The worst marine army outperforms the best of most other factions right now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 18:20:13


The
Webway
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Worth noting that 200 relloable dice is more dice than would be rolled in a complete game of epic.

Probably also more than would be rolled in an entire game of 3rd edition 40k.

Mannnnnnnyyyy more than in a game of Battlefleet Gothic or DnD.

More than a good game of Flames of War too.

There is no cause to need to roll 400 dice for one unit in any game system ever.


Off the cuff ideas:

10 shots, each hit = 20 hits (helps highlight how stupid that number is) is 1 option

10 shots or w/e but hits = d6 wound rolls which adds some random back in but with less dice

X shots at 5 damage and the wounds carry over on models with fewer than 3 wounds.

Lots of maths ways to juggle the numbers.

Edit: ooh low shot number but the number of hits applies to number of models in the unit, stops them blazing a tank down by tickling it.

Or, here's an idea: since rerolling all hits is roughly the equivalent of having a BS2, just give them BS2. Price them appropriately. Nix the rerolls and find something better for characters to do besides screaming "SHOOT BETTER!" at anything within earshot.

Edit: Nijad by Pyroalchi.


All good and well but are you then advocating the bs2 with rerolls units to simply become auto hit?


Just give them better weapons in the case of custodes.
If youre talking about things like captains, they already won't be affected by the rerolls anyway.


So to prevent rolling more dice with marines, you propose all elite units to fire more shots with better weapons to compensate... creating more total dice rolls...

Let's not stop to mention that guns with immensly higher rate of fire are now magically more accurate than sniper rifles for some reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Or, here's an idea: since rerolling all hits is roughly the equivalent of having a BS2, just give them BS2. Price them appropriately. Nix the rerolls and find something better for characters to do besides screaming "SHOOT BETTER!" at anything within earshot.

Edit: Nijad by Pyroalchi.


All good and well but are you then advocating the bs2 with rerolls units to simply become auto hit?


Good lord yes. Rolling dozens of dice to see if any turn up the 2.78% possibility of failure (note: ten dice at 2+/re-roll 1s only have a 1-in-4 chance of any failing) is a perfect example of excessive rolling for negligible effect. If we're not going to consider whether having 97.2% hit rates is actually healthy for the game to begin with, just round it up to 100% and be done with it.


I actually buy into this but it strips the game of some charm a little, those moments when your 10 2+ reroll shots all still miss somehow etc.

It should be a small factor as there's comparatively few 2+ reroll 1's ranged weapons off top of my head that have any meaningful rate of fire. It would also cause problems for hit modifiers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 18:35:11


 
   
Made in us
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 catbarf wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Or, here's an idea: since rerolling all hits is roughly the equivalent of having a BS2, just give them BS2. Price them appropriately. Nix the rerolls and find something better for characters to do besides screaming "SHOOT BETTER!" at anything within earshot.

Edit: Nijad by Pyroalchi.


All good and well but are you then advocating the bs2 with rerolls units to simply become auto hit?


Good lord yes. Rolling dozens of dice to see if any turn up the 2.78% possibility of failure (note: ten dice at 2+/re-roll 1s only have a 1-in-4 chance of any failing) is a perfect example of excessive rolling for negligible effect. If we're not going to consider whether having 97.2% hit rates is actually healthy for the game to begin with, just round it up to 100% and be done with it.

Actually, I kinda agree with this and that's why I think Custodes should actually get the Lt. aura of rerolling 1s to wound and Chapter Masters have an actual price. They did the latter at least.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Dudeface wrote:


So to prevent rolling more dice with marines, you propose all elite units to fire more shots with better weapons to compensate... creating more total dice rolls...

Let's not stop to mention that guns with immensly higher rate of fire are now magically more accurate than sniper rifles for some reason.


better weapons doesnt mean more shots.....
Higher strength, AP, range, damage and special rules (rending) are all ways to make weapons better.

Lets take Custodes and change the shield-captain aura to : "Add 1 to the strength of weapons for custodes within 6"". Same amount of shots, more efficiency, less dice rolls.


Admech 5000
Drukhari 4000
2500
500
Imperial knights 1200

 
   
Made in us
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Niiru wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


You are also wrong about winrate. With enough data collected it is literally the best metric to determine army power lvl. Top tournament placements is the other.
Low win rate with high tournament placements suggests an army is random or difficult to play.
High winrate but low torny placements suggest the army has a bad matchup with another strong meta contender.
Low win rate and low tournament placements suggest they army is underpowered.
Obviously high winrate and high tournament placements suggest the army is overpowered.

Which category do marines fall in here in 8th?
Clearly the low/low category.



You're saying that space marines have a low win rate, and low tournament placements?

Space Marines (according to the most recent analysis done, which doesn't take into account the tournaments in September but nothing much has changed in that time) were on a 52% win rate. So they were not low, they were slightly above average.

But that is for ALL space marines. If you break them down by army, then you start getting space marine armies with 71%, 69% and 61% win rates, wayyyyy above average and in fact the highest win rate of any army in the entire game by a large margin.

And as far as low placement goes, I'm not sure there's been many/any tournaments without a space marine army in the top 5. It probably has happened, but it certainly not the norm.

And this is with Space Marines having by far the most representation too (so more likely to be a mix of 'top' and 'casual' players dragging the averages down), with over 5x more armies in play than most of the other factions. (Over 10x more than most of the xenos armies).

So... yeh, I'm not sure if you were making a poor attempt to be sarcastic, or if you're just wrong. Marines are in the high win-rate and high-placements category. Even the worst of the marine subfactions is average-average at worst. The worst marine army outperforms the best of most other factions right now.
Sorry you are miss understanding me. Talking about 8.0 marine codex - not 8.5. 8.5 they are top teir - no doubt about it. They aren't the only top teir army though.

They are an A army no matter what faction you play too. Some of them are A+ though - like Iron hands and Salamanders. There are other A armies though. Custdians/DE/CWE/CSM are all A armies too. Orks Tau and Admech are armies that can place highly too and win lots of games. Any one of these armies can win a 25-50 man tornament and it's not a surpise. It is actually a sign of a healthy balance between these armies. Basically the marine complaining should have stopped by now. Complain about individual units at this point...if you must complain.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Niiru wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


You are also wrong about winrate. With enough data collected it is literally the best metric to determine army power lvl. Top tournament placements is the other.
Low win rate with high tournament placements suggests an army is random or difficult to play.
High winrate but low torny placements suggest the army has a bad matchup with another strong meta contender.
Low win rate and low tournament placements suggest they army is underpowered.
Obviously high winrate and high tournament placements suggest the army is overpowered.

Which category do marines fall in here in 8th?
Clearly the low/low category.



You're saying that space marines have a low win rate, and low tournament placements?

Space Marines (according to the most recent analysis done, which doesn't take into account the tournaments in September but nothing much has changed in that time) were on a 52% win rate. So they were not low, they were slightly above average.

But that is for ALL space marines. If you break them down by army, then you start getting space marine armies with 71%, 69% and 61% win rates, wayyyyy above average and in fact the highest win rate of any army in the entire game by a large margin.

And as far as low placement goes, I'm not sure there's been many/any tournaments without a space marine army in the top 5. It probably has happened, but it certainly not the norm.

And this is with Space Marines having by far the most representation too (so more likely to be a mix of 'top' and 'casual' players dragging the averages down), with over 5x more armies in play than most of the other factions. (Over 10x more than most of the xenos armies).

So... yeh, I'm not sure if you were making a poor attempt to be sarcastic, or if you're just wrong. Marines are in the high win-rate and high-placements category. Even the worst of the marine subfactions is average-average at worst. The worst marine army outperforms the best of most other factions right now.
Sorry you are miss understanding me. Talking about 8.0 marine codex - not 8.5. 8.5 they are top teir - no doubt about it. They aren't the only top teir army though.

They are an A army no matter what faction you play too. Some of them are A+ though - like Iron hands and Salamanders. There are other A armies though. Custdians/DE/CWE/CSM are all A armies too. Orks Tau and Admech are armies that can place highly too and win lots of games. Any one of these armies can win a 25-50 man tornament and it's not a surpise. It is actually a sign of a healthy balance between these armies. Basically the marine complaining should have stopped by now. Complain about individual units at this point...if you must complain.

I'm sorry what Tau and DE/CWE lists are winning 25-50 man events in 9th?
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Dudeface wrote:


So to prevent rolling more dice with marines, you propose all elite units to fire more shots with better weapons to compensate... creating more total dice rolls...

Let's not stop to mention that guns with immensly higher rate of fire are now magically more accurate than sniper rifles for some reason.


better weapons doesnt mean more shots.....
Higher strength, AP, range, damage and special rules (rending) are all ways to make weapons better.

Lets take Custodes and change the shield-captain aura to : "Add 1 to the strength of weapons for custodes within 6"". Same amount of shots, more efficiency, less dice rolls.



Maybe just remove rerolls and repoint aggressors? Or remove fire twice? Or reduce their shot count? All are better than messing everyones profiles around against the fluff.
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Worth noting that 200 relloable dice is more dice than would be rolled in a complete game of epic.

Probably also more than would be rolled in an entire game of 3rd edition 40k.

Mannnnnnnyyyy more than in a game of Battlefleet Gothic or DnD.

More than a good game of Flames of War too.

There is no cause to need to roll 400 dice for one unit in any game system ever.


Off the cuff ideas:

10 shots, each hit = 20 hits (helps highlight how stupid that number is) is 1 option

10 shots or w/e but hits = d6 wound rolls which adds some random back in but with less dice

X shots at 5 damage and the wounds carry over on models with fewer than 3 wounds.

Lots of maths ways to juggle the numbers.

Edit: ooh low shot number but the number of hits applies to number of models in the unit, stops them blazing a tank down by tickling it.

Or, here's an idea: since rerolling all hits is roughly the equivalent of having a BS2, just give them BS2. Price them appropriately. Nix the rerolls and find something better for characters to do besides screaming "SHOOT BETTER!" at anything within earshot.

Edit: Nijad by Pyroalchi.


All good and well but are you then advocating the bs2 with rerolls units to simply become auto hit?

No. They stay BS/WS2 and are priced accordingly. Nothing that hits on 2s needs rerolls. Otherwise what's the point of even using dice? There should always be the possibility of missing, unless it's something like a flamer.
   
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Niiru wrote:
 Argive wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because everyone is mad about how lately Marines are the Eldar from 2nd edition, where they were the most powerful codex. With things like how a Shuriken Catapult was better than a Storm Bolter, and could be in the hands of every Guardian.

Marines are literally getting ALL the toys.


it's mostly the eldar fans annoyed Marines are more powerful then them. thats not fair! marines are supposed to be the noob army that they can seal club!


any non-eldar players want to take this one ?
Coz I was going to start a nid army.. but .. whel...


No, sorry. If you play Eldar then YOU are at fault for everything that is wrong in the game of 40k. You have the audacity to play an army that was strong once 25 years ago, and since then has mostly survived on gimmick lists and rules loopholes because the bulk of your codex has been garbage. How dare you even exist.

I would say /s but this is literally the general feeling on Dakka. It's better to just say you play 'xenos' and don't get specific, as all the xenos armies are in the same boat of being underpowered and underdeveloped.


I guess 7th didn't happen where Eldar could pick almost any unit in the codex and over power most other lists.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
 
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