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Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






SC definitely needs a range increase.

It was a bit pants when a unit moved 6” and charged 6”, as they rarely ended up in range.

With it now M, then a 2D6+ charge and various ways to extend the 2D6, it’s even worse.

24” would be decent.

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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Thing is, being Assault 2 was a much more useful distinction from Rapid Fire back in 3rd when the latter limited you to 1 shot at 12" if you moved, and you only got 2 shots at 12"/1 at max range if you stayed still.

The problem is a lot of the limitations on Rapid Fire have been lifted as editions have crept on, whereas the SC has stayed Assault 2, meaning that compared with, say, a Bolter, it's got significantly worse.

Given that GW are showing a willingness to address "legacy" profiles to make stuff feel like it "should" in 9th, I wouldn't be surprised if we finally saw a revision to the SC profile once the new CWE book rolls round.
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





The short range of the SC also just creates a discrepancy with the army. Most of the vehicle weaponry is 36" in range which means that the army is kitted out for long range engagement but the soldiers are somehow in the enemy's face.

Also, the original OP-ness of the Shuriken Catapult came out of the fact that it was a long range weapon with a lot of shots in a game where marines moved 4 inches. That is no longer the case.

-Primary Armies -
Craftworlds | Dark Angels | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle | Chaos Knights | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin

- Secondary Armies -
Drukhari | Necrons || Tyranids | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






2nd Ed was, if memory serves was…

24” range, S4, -2 save, 1 sustained fire dice.

Superior to a Storm Bolter in those days.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
2nd Ed was, if memory serves was…

24” range, S4, -2 save, 1 sustained fire dice.

Superior to a Storm Bolter in those days.


You are correct.

-Primary Armies -
Craftworlds | Dark Angels | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle | Chaos Knights | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin

- Secondary Armies -
Drukhari | Necrons || Tyranids | Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals
 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon





One thing to consider regarding guardians is the models themselves. If GW do not upgrade the box (no reason IMHO) then the unit will still be 10 strong with option of weapon platform, no warlock.

As much as I'd love a warlock in the squad, if GW do not change the box, it won't happen. I certainly could see them treat warlocks like marine Lts, where more than 1 (in the case of marines, limited to 2) only takes one slot. Warlocks would need to be more than 2 however. Then in the Command Phase, a warlock can choose a Guardian unit within 6" and apply the Always On buff.
(btw, wyldhunt, really liked your ideas you posted).

   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I think Eldar also flat out ignored the first jam on Sustained Fire?

Grognard to Youngster explanation.

Sustained Fire Dice were used for multi-shot weapons. Each die had Misfire, 1, 1, 2, 2 and 3 as its result.

If you rolled a Jam, the weapon didn’t fire that turn (I think?) and couldn’t fire the next turn as you cleared the jam. Otherwise the number determined how many shots had been fired (can’t remember if you rolled to hit before or after?).

So single Sustained Fire dice weapons were a bit of a double edged sword. But with Eldar ignoring the first jam rolled it just meant the one wasted shot that turn.

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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Assault Cannon had a rare 3 Sustained Fire dice, but if you got 3 jams, the gun exploded!

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






In all the many, many games of 2nd Ed I ever played, and despite my regular use of Ravenwing Landspeeders, I never had an assault cannon explode on me.

Had some fun moments with Cyclone Terminators, but never assault cannons.

I think it was Sustained Fire on Chaos’ Mk1 Plasma Weapons that first introduced Plasma Overheats?

Don’t ask me the difference between Mk1 and Mk2 Plasma profiles though!

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Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think Eldar also flat out ignored the first jam on Sustained Fire?
I don't remember that rule, but I didn't play Eldar. I can't find it in the 2nd Ed. Eldar codex, but maybe it was something from RT itself?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Assault Cannon had a rare 3 Sustained Fire dice, but if you got 3 jams, the gun exploded!
Happened to me twice!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I know SM Dreadnoughts could ignore their first jam. Fairly confident Eldar could too.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I know SM Dreadnoughts could ignore their first jam. Fairly confident Eldar could too.
If you can find it I'd appreciate it. I've been looking to play some more 2nd ed and I recently got about 40 RT era metal Guardians, some of them NIB!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I’m the wrong dude to ask. A complete set of 2nd Ed gubbins is my 2022 project!

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Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

RT didn’t use sustained fire dice. Some guns had following fire, where if you hit/wounded, you could shoot again.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 bullyboy wrote:

(btw, wyldhunt, really liked your ideas you posted).

A big thank you to yourself and the others kind enough to throw some compliments my way. <3
   
Made in us
Flower Picking Eldar Youth




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think it was Sustained Fire on Chaos’ Mk1 Plasma Weapons that first introduced Plasma Overheats?

Pretty sure all plasma weapons had an overheat chance in Rogue Trader, but vehicles and dreadnaughts were immune, which is why when spirit warriors came out with heavy plasma gun as an option, it was just silly. The mounted heavy plasma gun was arguably the ultimate rogue trader weapon because it was like S8, save mod -5(?) and had following fire. I saw entire units (which back then were ten strong by default) taken out by heavy plasma guns back in rogue trader. At least land raiders couldn’t get them!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Coming VERY late to the original topic of this thread, and having collected Eldar avidly since 1988, one reason why I’ve never cared about a model refresh is that no one can beat Jes Goodwin at carving (at least not yet), and he carved the bulk of Eldar, and some awesome marine stuff to boot.

Personally I’d love a new Avatar - the current one is only the second one ever and is too clunky and inelegant IMHO. The original model was awesome except it was about the same height as a wraithguard, which is WAY too short. I’d buy the heck out of an avatar that is plastic and the same height as a wraith knight.

Never liked the wave serpent concept that has the silly “blades” tacked on to a falcon. The original Epic wave serpent was much better but would probably be clunky scaled up to 40k.

While I have a ton of metal jet bikes, the plastic ones are cool. I cut all the wings off mine - metal ones never had them and I think the plastics look more Eldar without the wings, not less.

And the guardian heavy weapon platforms/D-cannon, etc have never been great. New plastics of those would be nice. I roll with these first Ed platforms that are so adeptus mechanicus looking but I’m kinda sentimental about them.

Aside from that, no matter what they release or change in the rules, I will NEVER let go of my original Harlequins, aspect warriors, and guardians. They are all just too perfect to be replaced.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/17 19:15:38


10k-ish
2.5k
HE 6k
TK 3k 
   
Made in us
Hacking Shang Jí





Fayetteville

GooberNumber9 wrote:


Never liked the wave serpent concept that has the silly “blades” tacked on to a falcon. The original Epic wave serpent was much better but would probably be clunky scaled up to 40k.


You mean like this one?


That thing is fugly as all get out.

The Imperial Navy, A Galatic Force for Good. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Man, that's one wild looking steam iron.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






I kinda like that old design. It's definitely different. Imo it looks really nice as an Epic scaled model when there's a bunch of them.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yes that was the original Wave Serpent back when the Eldar visual theme was more mystical and pseudo Egyptian. In Epic 2nd edition, the Wave Serpent generated a V shaped wave (with the tip of the V at the tip of the Serpent), with a certain height (though the top of the wave was like an exponential decay curve), that was represented by a standing template included with the Eldar supplement. The wave was literally impenetrable to any kind of weapon. However because of the curving nature of the wave, it was possible to hit the Serpent from the side or rear. The wave could also be fired off for a random distance forward, doing a relatively weak hit. The Serpent carried 2 squads (i.e. 10 Eldar).

The problem with that wave was the arguments it caused in Epic about whether or not an enemy could trace a LOS and fire over the wave. That meant the Serpent at times provided 0 protection beyond its standard tank armor if the enemy could, while being totally 100% protected if they couldn't trace LOS over the wave. I think changing the rules to something that did not require a standing card template was necessary to avoid this all or nothing situation and the arguments it could provoke.

Note that this kind of Wave Serpent appears in the background of the 2nd edition Eldar Codex.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/17 23:20:21


 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Arschbombe wrote:
GooberNumber9 wrote:


Never liked the wave serpent concept that has the silly “blades” tacked on to a falcon. The original Epic wave serpent was much better but would probably be clunky scaled up to 40k.


You mean like this one?


That thing is fugly as all get out.


Glad to see Jabba the Hutt managed to get himself a new barge.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Iracundus wrote:
Yes that was the original Wave Serpent back when the Eldar visual theme was more mystical and pseudo Egyptian. In Epic 2nd edition, the Wave Serpent generated a V shaped wave (with the tip of the V at the tip of the Serpent), with a certain height (though the top of the wave was like an exponential decay curve), that was represented by a standing template included with the Eldar supplement. The wave was literally impenetrable to any kind of weapon. However because of the curving nature of the wave, it was possible to hit the Serpent from the side or rear. The wave could also be fired off for a random distance forward, doing a relatively weak hit. The Serpent carried 2 squads (i.e. 10 Eldar).

The problem with that wave was the arguments it caused in Epic about whether or not an enemy could trace a LOS and fire over the wave. That meant the Serpent at times provided 0 protection beyond its standard tank armor if the enemy could, while being totally 100% protected if they couldn't trace LOS over the wave. I think changing the rules to something that did not require a standing card template was necessary to avoid this all or nothing situation and the arguments it could provoke.

Note that this kind of Wave Serpent appears in the background of the 2nd edition Eldar Codex.


A weak hit to be sure, but a useful one as it would shove survivors aside.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Yes that was the original Wave Serpent back when the Eldar visual theme was more mystical and pseudo Egyptian. In Epic 2nd edition, the Wave Serpent generated a V shaped wave (with the tip of the V at the tip of the Serpent), with a certain height (though the top of the wave was like an exponential decay curve), that was represented by a standing template included with the Eldar supplement. The wave was literally impenetrable to any kind of weapon. However because of the curving nature of the wave, it was possible to hit the Serpent from the side or rear. The wave could also be fired off for a random distance forward, doing a relatively weak hit. The Serpent carried 2 squads (i.e. 10 Eldar).

The problem with that wave was the arguments it caused in Epic about whether or not an enemy could trace a LOS and fire over the wave. That meant the Serpent at times provided 0 protection beyond its standard tank armor if the enemy could, while being totally 100% protected if they couldn't trace LOS over the wave. I think changing the rules to something that did not require a standing card template was necessary to avoid this all or nothing situation and the arguments it could provoke.

Note that this kind of Wave Serpent appears in the background of the 2nd edition Eldar Codex.


A weak hit to be sure, but a useful one as it would shove survivors aside.


The Epic version was comedy gold as discharging the shield, which had quite the range) meant any unit hit skipped their turn, get enough and one side (hint not the pointy ears) had a massively gak turn 1

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Yes that was the original Wave Serpent back when the Eldar visual theme was more mystical and pseudo Egyptian. In Epic 2nd edition, the Wave Serpent generated a V shaped wave (with the tip of the V at the tip of the Serpent), with a certain height (though the top of the wave was like an exponential decay curve), that was represented by a standing template included with the Eldar supplement. The wave was literally impenetrable to any kind of weapon. However because of the curving nature of the wave, it was possible to hit the Serpent from the side or rear. The wave could also be fired off for a random distance forward, doing a relatively weak hit. The Serpent carried 2 squads (i.e. 10 Eldar).

The problem with that wave was the arguments it caused in Epic about whether or not an enemy could trace a LOS and fire over the wave. That meant the Serpent at times provided 0 protection beyond its standard tank armor if the enemy could, while being totally 100% protected if they couldn't trace LOS over the wave. I think changing the rules to something that did not require a standing card template was necessary to avoid this all or nothing situation and the arguments it could provoke.

Note that this kind of Wave Serpent appears in the background of the 2nd edition Eldar Codex.


A weak hit to be sure, but a useful one as it would shove survivors aside.


The Epic version was comedy gold as discharging the shield, which had quite the range) meant any unit hit skipped their turn, get enough and one side (hint not the pointy ears) had a massively gak turn 1


Range was random (I think it was d6x10cm) and the Wave Serpents only came in pairs. I preferred the Tempest super heavy grav tanks myself. The Doom Weaver (i.e. the monofilament wielding vehicle) was also good, and far more powerful than its moder Night Spinner equivalent in the part of area denial. Those monofilament hexagonal templates created impassable terrain. Anything that could not move out of the way or that was forced into them was auto destroyed. That was anything, including tanks and Titans. Now granted that's probably far too powerful but something like that kind of area denial effect would be another thing for 40K Eldar weapons to have.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/18 12:44:21


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



UK

GooberNumber9 wrote:

Pretty sure all plasma weapons had an overheat chance in Rogue Trader, but vehicles and dreadnaughts were immune, which is when spirit warriors came out with heavy plasma gun as an option, it was just silly. The mounted heavy plasma gun was arguably the ultimate rogue trader weapon because it was like S8, save mod -5(?) and had following fire. I saw entire units (which back then were ten strong by default) taken out by heavy plasma guns back in rogue trader. At least land raiders couldn’t get them!


As I recall, no, overheating wasn't a thing. And I ran orks - if theirs aren't overheating (pedantic admission: outside of mekboy Kustom Job table results), no-one's was.
What plasma DID do was need to cool down; that is, after you shot it, it had to miss at least one turn 'reloading' to cool off. The heavy plasma gun had sufficient 'fuel' to allow two modes though; sustained (where it got Following Fire, but was 'only' about as powerful as the normal plasma gun, range aside) and Maximal, which was the full-fat S10, d10 -6 2" Blast (I think it was 2"), but DID have to miss a turn.

As an aside. I can't believe I can have a reasonable stab at remembering a weapon profile I last used 20? years ago, but a procedure at work I do daily i still need to look at my notes...
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





@ Iracundus

Oh aye Doom weavers was fun especially with the psy power that stopped things moving (something else Eldar need back in 40k as Restrain is a fup awful power that's not worth casting)

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



UK

You know, if we're on an old skool, 1e kick, I dont think I've seen anyone mention one thing the Elves used to have.
Their powers work.
No psychic power points. No dice roll. The runes channel just enough power, safely, and psychic fun happens. Power goes off, that's it. Much like the Tomb Kings prayers used to, if you're familiar with those. Yes, there would be a nominal WC value to allow dispel attempts, but if the army is being 'balanced' around All The Powers All The Time, then we may as well get the damned benefit of it.
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






That seems reasonable enough. A faction who was created to fight Psychic wars and has developed technology to make it safe can just cast without issue.

Rolling would only be if your opponent attempts a Deny or powers that like Smite that get better if you roll high.
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

Teclis in AOS has a system for auto-casting powers with more casts meaning a lower counts-as casting value.

I'm actually thinking about it in 40k now and imagining a sort of psychic power pool that all of your psykers add to which determines how many auto-casts you can do (maybe Eldrad always gives you +1 auto-cast on a 12 attempt on top of everything). There's interesting stuff you could do with that system and it's very fluffy in a sense; in the rules Eldar are already the most reliable casters in the game and have lots of built in perils protection and lorewise I struggle to really think of instances where Eldar psykers mess up the incantation of their powers (although to be fair I can't think of any instances of that happening to anyone).

However a lot of people HATE Teclis in AOS because of the auto-cast stuff. It doesn't matter if command abilities or datasheet/warscroll abilities allow you to automatically activate powerful buffs or effects, the moment it is tied to magic or psychic powers the idea of it being automatic really sours people on the whole thing.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I’m sure there was an edition beyond 2nd Ed where Warlock powers just sort of worked, with no need to roll?

I remember they weren’t terribly impressive as psychic powers went at the time, but the “always on” thing went some way to balancing that out.

For modern day Warlocks? And indeed Farseers?

I propose a two tier power system. The first tier is always on, and doesn’t need to be rolled for. If the model has a choice of powers, they need only declare which they’re using. These would be relatively passive. Useful, but not turn ruining for your opponent.

The second tier would need to be declared, and requires the standard Psychic Test (with their usual bells and doohickeys to swing it further in their favour).

The only Warlock Power I can think of right now would be Destructor. Baseline “always on” might be D6, S5, D1. The boosted “you gotta a roll with it*” version might boost it to 2D6, or S7, perhaps D D3? I’ll let actual players pick the bones out of how much stronger a boosted manifestation might be.

Heck, for Farseers, perhaps various casting levels? The higher the test (not necessarily declared beforehand), the more potent the effect?

*yes I quote Oasis. Yes I do feel dirty. Jarvis Cocker for Pope.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/18 18:57:39


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