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The other thing to keep in mind, HG pushing FASA around 30 years ago, is one thing.

HG trying to push around Sony is a *completely* different animal.

 TalonZahn wrote:
HG trying to push around Sony is a *completely* different animal.

Indeed. Sony has the pockets to bankrupt HG in litigation.

I hope they do so.

I wouldn't be surprised if PGI and HBS also had the money to bury HG at this point.

Merijeek wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if PGI and HBS also had the money to bury HG at this point.

Can we all just hope they collectively decide to remove this irritant once and for all?

 vonjankmon wrote:

winterdyne wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:

 Swabby wrote:
So, in a bought of total insanity HG is suing Tatsunoko.

https://www.open-public-records.com/court/california-23006746.htm

This is going to all around have huge implications for Robotech/Battletech/Macross/General Geekdom.

I wonder what they are suing over, they own the rights in the US, seems like trying to sue them over something just opens the door for their right ownership to be questioned and HG to lose out. This could easily spin out of control and sink the Robotech movie Sony is supposed to be working on, I doubt Sony will want to have to deal with a rights battle while making the movie.

If HG lost their 'ownership' of the Macross designs, Sony would just say 'meh' and license Macross from Tatsunoko / Big West instead and keep effectively the same screenplay in a bout of extreme irony.

Movies are an extremely expensive gamble now, it's the reason you see so many sequels and rehashes of previously successful franchices. The movie studios are very careful about where they spend $100+ million and if there is even the hint of a legal battle that could possibly keep a completed movie from being released in theatres or overseas in places like China where many movies make the majority of their revenue now you can bet Sony will be doing a lot more than saying "meh".

My point was that if HG lose their ownership of the Robotech franchise, then the obstruction to using Macross (far, far more popular) is also gone. The mech designs, characters, overall screenplay would all remain unchanged (no cost to preproduction budget or schedule). It'd be a massive win for Sony (improving their profitability outside the US with a more established brand license), Tatsunoko, Big West, Studio Nue (royalties), and probably Bandai with the toy and model kit rights (and in counterpoint Sony with royalties for the live action designs). It'd become a money-making machine for decades. Model kits and toys of the VF-1 are still hugely popular. Hell, Ultraman is still hugely popular in Japan.

Of course, all this relies on HG losing the ownership (which realistically means bankruptcy). Pretty unlikely.

This said, I wouldn't be surprised if the 'Robotech' film is marketed in Japan as Macross. And that we see no mention of 'protoculture' as an energy source rather than a, well, culture, in the script. I suspect the Robotech license is purely to access the US market.

You are working under the assumption that Sony is able to license the Macross/Robotech IP from whomever the new owner becomes if HG loses it. Sony will not be that new owner, they have never (to my knowledge) been involved with the creation of Macross or the series that followed it.

So if HG loses their ownership Sony has to make a new deal and the new owner could license it to them, in which case you are right they would come out ahead. Or the new owner could license it to someone else (or not at all) and Sony is out a crap ton of money. And thus the potential gamble they may face. Currently HG is not an obstruction to Sony, they licensed the Robotech IP out to them for the movie.

I didn't say Sony would. Studio Nue / Big West are still the owners of the Macross franchise.

Have a look here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macross#Legal_complications_with_international_distribution

It's unlikely that the trademarks that HG hold are sufficiently defensible should someone with enough motivation and/or pockets deep enough see fit to challenge them. If HG went into receivership (I think you call it 'administration' over there), it's very likely indeed that Big West / Studio Nue would snap those up quickly in order to complete their ownership of the franchise.

Apparently 4 people turned out for the Robotech event at Gen Con, the excitement must have been HUGE.

A lot of other companies use Gen Con as their flagship event or national championship level event, promote the heck out of them and see some pretty big turn outs numbering in the hundreds. The turn out for Robotech meanwhile could have been housed on a single table, things aren't even on life support level. Games that are 15+ years out of print manage to get a bigger draw at gen con. I think it's safe to declare that RRT is well past dead.

 stanman wrote:
Apparently 4 people turned out for the Robotech event at Gen Con, the excitement must have been HUGE.

A lot of other companies use Gen Con as their flagship event or national championship level event, promote the heck out of them and see some pretty big turn outs numbering in the hundreds. The turn out for Robotech meanwhile could have been housed on a single table, things aren't even on life support level. Games that are 15+ years out of print manage to get a bigger draw at gen con. I think it's safe to declare that RRT is well past dead.

As I said in an earlier post, I did swing past on Saturday afternoon, and while I can't confirm that all participants were tourney attendees, there were at least three games happening at the same time, and another player with an army out (the FPA/MPA/Gnerl one), so that's 7 potential players. They all seemed to be enjoying themselves, so I wasn't going to interrupt.

It's still pretty small, but not as small as I was expecting. GenCon ticketing only had 3 registered in the week leading up to the convention, and just checking, still have that number. Still, as you say, there are games with much less prominence that have significantly greater attendance. I still maintain that the lack of promotion or interest from the company is a big factor.

On an otherwise unrelated note, did I miss something in the recent lawsuit debacles regards the movie? Given the way it's been discussed, I figured the way it was reported, that Sony had signed a licensing deal with HG, and that my cynicism was that unless it was ALSO signed with the Japanese companies, it'd be a legal stumbling block. But people seem to be suggesting Sony signed with the Japanese companies, and edging out Harmony Gold. Is that the jist of things? Cause if so, that warms my heart.

Also, the 2021 date mentioned is interesting. Because even IF Wave 2 happens by then (and I'm not betting on it), it WILL put the kibosh on the whole "Gen 2/3 in the same scale" crap that PB promoted as a significant selling point. There's simply no way PB can get it done, marketed and sold, with four years remaining. Not unless Scott is some business genius.

Which brings up a further unrelated note, I saw someone mentioning that Scott doesn't even work out of the Michigan office? That he lives in Texas or some such? If that's true, then I guess I can write off pretty much anything he says, because if he's only getting his information through a filter of Kevin and Wayne statements (like in his first Update, he mentions the phonecall he didn't sit on, but was "productive"). Sorry, if he doesn't have first hand knowledge of the goings on at PBHQ, and is relying on being updated by Kevin and Wayne, then anything he says is even less credible than I initially thought.

I would be very interested to see some proof of the 2021 claim to be honest. It would make me insanely happy if it were true but the cynic in me wants some proof.

*Edit* Actually looks like the 2021 claim is true, a disbute between HG and the Japanese rights holder resulted in some court documents confirming the 2021 date along with the fact that since they tried to sue HG they won't likely be renewing their license. So just four more years before we'll get legit copies of Macross Frontier and Macross Delta.

Sony for sure has signed an agreement with the Japanese owner of Macross rights because HG only owns them here in the US and Sony is not going to lose out on the world wide profits. If the 2021 thing is true though I could totally see Sony sitting on the rights or just delaying release until 2021 and cutting HG out, 4 years doesn't mean much to Sony.

Since Sony is a Japanese company I guess it would make sense that they would contact the Japanese rights holder?

This is what they are talking about over on the Kickstarter:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoMs6iYXyng

Tatsunoko vs HG. So this is why the movie finally got greenlighted. Wow.

Also why wave two will never happen.

Autarch wrote:
This is what they are talking about over on the Kickstarter:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoMs6iYXyng

Tatsunoko vs HG. So this is why the movie finally got greenlighted. Wow.

Also why wave two will never happen.

And according to one backer on the Kickstarter commentary who called them, PB had no idea about the 2021 deadline. So that's going to be fun!

Watched the video, and while I liked the information on how it played out, I didn't like the claim that Harmony Gold aren't "the bad guys". There's a huge frikkin difference between being legally approved, and being "a good guy". It's not Harmony Gold's legal status that makes them a good or bad guy. It's what they've done with it. And that very much makes them a bad guy. There's a legal distinction, and a moral/ethical one. And they only count for the former.

Thanks for the clip though.

Well we're never getting our Wave 2 stuff from PB but having some light at the end of the tunnel for finally being able to own an official copy of Macross Frontier and not having to import models from Japan is going to be awesome.

If you are a fan of Robotech but have not watched Macross Frontier you need to fix that. Robotech is how I was introduced to the whole mech franchise thing so it holds a special gilded place in my heart but Macross Frontier is seriously good without having to have the "Watched it when I was a kid" gilded memories that Robotech has.

Can someone bullet point and 'bottom line' what the big news is here, and why 2021 is looming large now?

Thanks!

 vonjankmon wrote:

If you are a fan of Robotech but have not watched Macross Frontier you need to fix that. Robotech is how I was introduced to the whole mech franchise thing so it holds a special gilded place in my heart but Macross Frontier is seriously good without having to have the "Watched it when I was a kid" gilded memories that Robotech has.

Macross Plus is great also... love the soundtrack...
But I don't think Palladium will ever ship wave 2, even if this wasn't happening..

Sometimes I feel we gave money to a nice street performer that was playing the guitar and seemed to have talent..
Then a crazy homeless man rushed up, took the money out of the case and started yelling at everyone.

One thing someone should ask Scott is what does he think as a new professional person working for palladium.
How does he feel the Robotech kick-starter effected Palladium's corporate image.

Personally.. in the past it was fair to poor corprate image on average.. slow to ship and average products.. after RTT its a dumpster fire at low tide..
And ask any magic or x-wing player.. most will say.. "that old game company??" or "Who??"

 Alpharius wrote:
Can someone bullet point and 'bottom line' what the big news is here, and why 2021 is looming large now?

Thanks!

Alright:

-Tatsunoko Productions in Japan owns the rights to Macross/Robotech everywhere in the world except the US, where Harmony Gold claims ownership.
-Recently it came out that Tatsunoko Productions claimed that Harmony Gold owed them money for their usage of the Robotech/Macross license here in the US. The issue went to arbitration and recently the results and notes from that arbitration became publically available.
-In those notes it was stated that Harmony Golds license to the Robotech/Macross IP runs out in March of 2021 and that Tatsunoko Productions could not renew said license if they chose.
-This action seems likely since Tatsunoko Productions lost the arbitration and did not get any of the money they wanted, so it is fairly safe to assume that they are not on good terms with Harmony.
-All of this is entirely separate from the current litigation that Harmony Gold is attempting against the companies currently making use of the Battletech IP.

Hope that helps.

It does - thank you!

SO, since PB gets their license from HG, and IF Tatsunoko doesn't renew in 2021 (as you note), then PB has until then to get Wave 2 and/or anything else done and sold.

4 more years of can kicking, or an honest attempt to make as much money as possible before The End.

Of course, I guess Tatsunoko could always license with PB directly too, at that point...

If Tatsunoko does not renew it will be the end of Robotech. They have no interest in it as a derivitive work. They would make more money just reselling the one thing they actually own, the animation of SDF Macross.

It would literally be the end of Robotech.

I guess I don't understand much about 'Robotech', what makes "Robotech" actually be 'Robotech' or where it comes from then... :(

 Alpharius wrote:
I guess I don't understand much about 'Robotech', what makes "Robotech" actually be 'Robotech' or where it comes from then... :(

Because the first era of it with the Tomcat / F-14 looking Veritechs are from the original works of the show "Macross", then the other era of "Southern Cross" and then finally "Mospeada".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macross
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Dimension_Cavalry_Southern_Cross
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_Climber_MOSPEADA

The Wiki can pretty much say it better than me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotech

Talizar - thank you!

A rather complicated mess, really...

In a nutshell, Robotech is the anime equivalent of a manufactured boy band, comprised of three individually quite different singers, er, series - Superdimensional Fortress: Macross, Southern Cross, and Genesis Climber Mospeada. Overdubbed and adjusted in plot to munge them all together.

The name itself was put initially used by Revell (yes, the model kit / toy company) who wanted something to allow them to market their licensed japanese model kits (some of which were from other series than ended up in the Robotech melange).

Harmony Gold had problems with merchandising as the Macross kits put forward by Revell were already in production under the Robotech name, so both parties effectively agreed to colicense, and Robotech became the name for the imported animation.

Anyway, Harmony Gold's license comes from Tatsunoko who didn't quite have the authority to issue the license in the manner it was - designs and merchandising rights are actually under the authority of the authors of Macross (Studio Nue) and the money men (Big West). Tatsunoko have the distribution rights to the physical animation ONLY.

So, when the license Tatsunoko put out expres in 2021, they will not be able to license out the designs of the mechs, any merchandising or derivative work rights or so on. Tatsunoko and Big West / Studio Nue weren't on friendly terms last I checked either. Hence, Robotech (as a franchise based on licensable assets) dies.

winterdyne wrote:
So, when the license Tatsunoko put out expres in 2021, they will not be able to license out the designs of the mechs, any merchandising or derivative work rights or so on. Tatsunoko and Big West / Studio Nue weren't on friendly terms last I checked either. Hence, Robotech (as a franchise based on licensable assets) dies.

So with a cup half full viewpoint: buy up all those wave1 starter kits while you can!

We stopped at a McDonald’s to grab some lunch. We sat by the windows talking and watching people as they came and went. A particular group of guys stepped out of a car and I said to Wayne and Chuck, “Those guys look like gamers. I wonder if they’re heading to Gen Con?”

A few minutes later, a tall gentleman from that group, wearing a Fallout T-shirt, walked over to our table to ask if we were going to Gen Con. I was wearing my Rifts® Promise of Power T-shirt with the big, red and white Rifts® logo, so I imagine it caught his eye. I know Chuck was also wearing a Palladium T-shirt (Rifts® Cyber-Knight Game Master). We said yes, and we all enjoyed a good laugh about it. The man, whose name was Tim, asked me if we worked for Palladium Books. We laughed and said, “yes.” Tim then asked if we were booth help or actually worked at the company. I smiled and said, “I am Palladium Books.” “You mean like ...” “Yep, I’m Kevin Siembieda, the owner and main game designer,” and introduced Chuck and Wayne. Tim was surprised. We shook hands and laughed some more. We wished him a safe trip and fun time at Gen Con, and invited him to stop by the Palladium Books booth.

Good times with a wacky crew.

Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®.

Dude, give it a rest! We get it!

I know this is a common thing and goes forever and a half years back, but this particular snippet caught me when it showed up 3 times in like 30 words.

I'm sure there are more egregious displays, but here we are.

 Forar wrote:
Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®Rifts®.

Dude, give it a rest! We get it!

I know this is a common thing and goes forever and a half years back, but this particular snippet caught me when it showed up 3 times in like 30 words.

I'm sure there are more egregious displays, but here we are.

No. As this goes it's probably setting a new bar.

Assuming this is a direct copy/paste (as is appropriate for anything regarding PB), notice his inconsistency with applying the registered trademark symbol to "Palladium Books." He doesn't apply it at all here, and he is intermittent with it elsewhere. But he NEVER types "rifts" without putting the registered trademark symbol next to it.

You guys are paying too much attention to Rifts©®@¶™<>£¥{ and not enough attention to what amazing thing happened at McDonalds on the way to gencon.

Mr "I am palladium" lmao

 Swabby wrote:
You guys are paying too much attention to Rifts©®@¶™<>£¥{ and not enough attention to what amazing thing happened at McDonalds on the way to gencon.

Mr "I am palladium" lmao

Yup. dill weed. And you KNOW it's not like he said it in a self-deprecating or joking manner. He clearly believes his own hype.

He's apparently a charming and personable guy in person. That doesn't stop him from being a dill weed.

EDIT: Hey, I learnt a new profanity is in the autofilter. Cool!

He doesn't do it for McDonald's, Fallout or Gen Con.