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I just picked up Warmachine, lured in by the fantastic Harbinger of Menoth model.  The rules are, for the most part, amazingly straightforward (compared to the mess that is GW).  One thing I'm not sure about though:

p55 of Warmachine Prime:  Upkeep Spells: "A warcaster may have only one of each specific upkeep spell in play at a time"  Does this mean that a warcaster is restricted to only one of each upkeep spell period, or just per jack?

 I can see the necessity of a restriction on things like "+2 DEF" spells per jack, so that you don't just cast it 3 times and try to stack it for a +6 DEF. 

Restricting to one of each upkeep spell period seems much more...er...restrictive.  But I suppose would prevent 'broken' tactics like making a bunch of jacks untargetable by ranged weapons (with a Choir) and then making each of them untargetable by spells using Kreoss' Ward spell.

So is it a per jack restriction, or an overall 'one of each upkeep spell period' restriction?  Please help a nOOb out!

If it does not say one upkeep per warjack, then it does not mean one upkeep
per warjack. I like that part of Warmachine rules. You don't have to "read into"
them or look for "designer intent."

So it's one of each specific upkeep spell in play at a time. As soon as you cast
an upkeep spell that's in play the previous one expires.

What malfred said.

Further any single model/unit may only have a single upkeep spell on it at a time.

You can upkeep multiple spells, but only one instance of each spell. Also, most spells and effects will say if they stack or not. For the most part, bonuses do not stack. I think there are more negative modifier spells and abilities that stack.

For example, if you cast Snipe on a unit of Long-gunners, it will remain in play as long as you pay to keep it. If you cast Snipe on a unit of Trenchers, the current upkeep spell on the Long-gunners is removed. You cannot have the same upkeep spell in play more than once. If you cast Arcane Shield, you could upkeep that and Snipe.

On a side note...using the spells and choir to protect jacks is not a 'broken tactic'. Annoying...yes. Broken...no. My Gun Mage Solo can easily ruin your day by running around and picking off the priest...no more singing. And if you want to commit so many resources to protecting one jack or the group...fine. That means you have less focus to give jacks and for flinging spells at me.

As I 'n00b' I should warn you that WarMachine may appear to be powergaming. I'm sure we can debate the issue for months. IMHO it is not powergaming. The difference is that everyone who went from 40K to WM was not used to the new system. They may have been turned off by the fact that in WM there is more focus (no pun intended) on units working together and combinations of spells and abilities. In this way it's more like a CCG. You need to find out what units work well together and who have abilities that compliment each other. Unlike 40K, you cannot just stick a unit on the board and expect it to move/shoot/assault independent of every other unit on the board.

Cool, thanks.

Yeah, I'm getting the idea from reading the book that powergaming is encouraged in WM

I'm thinking of trying to trade my Revenger (?not sure of the names...the flamethrower light Menoth jack from the battle box) for a second Repenter (? arcnode light jack from battle box), and fielding them with the Harbinger. The flamethrower seems lame compared to the glaive + shield+arc node.

I'd like to get some long range skyhammer rockets going too. Do people prefer to field the troops (more rockets per point, but crappy armour and can blow themselves and a friend up real good) or the jack (max 3 shots and needs focus for that, but can boost damage, is better armoured and could be made pretty invulnerable by a min-sized Choir)? I'm thinking the jack is the better deal, as long as I've got spare focus (see Harbinger, above).



There doesn't seem to be a WM army list forum here...do people just post their lists in this forum?

Dakka is really about 40K. Sure there are forums for WFB, but 40K really is the main focus. If you want someone to look at your lists and discuss tactics, I'd suggest joining the Privateer Press boards. The PP forum is probably one of the best company sponsored boards.

Don't trade away that flamethrower too quickly...fire is N-A-S-T-Y in WM. It's not as useful against jacks, but it decimates troops...even the heavy troops. If they somehow survive the fire attack and are set on fire, then they will probably die next round. Fire is not nice to troop heavy armies.

Once Escalation came out more people started to add troops. I rarely see armies for standard play that have more than 50% of their points in jacks.

I'm in love with WM and HORDES. Right now all related WM and HORDES discussions take place here, however I'll probably be expanding the WM section soon once the current batch of upgrades are done.

The Revenger is the arcnode with shield. A tough little Jack with a nice
offensive punch.

The Repenter is the flamethrower which is famous for people not wanting
to play them.

The Redeemer is the rocket launcher. Deliverers are the infantry with rockets.

I'm not one to believe in one list all the time (though people on the pp boards
will tell you that they do that sometimes). I like variety and I play the game
because I like the rules and the figs.

Redeemers vs. Deliverers = Deliverers will be nice for your low armor priorities.
Even when they scatter they have a chance to kill 1 wound, low ARM infantry.
And when you KD with Kreoss or Death Sentence something with Severius,
those rockets WILL hit.

Redeemers are for when you want to be more selective about who gets hit
and damaged. They are base RAT 4, and then they are inaccurate at 0. But
Redeemers benefit from choir and focus.

If your army has the focus and the points, then get a redeemer. If you've
already filled up on heavy focus jacks or your plans involve casting spells or
using your warcaster in melee, pick up a minimum unit of deliverers.

If you're playing eFeora, ANY aoe is a nice idea for a bonded warjack because
they cause fire on anything they hit.

2112: Repenters do NOT cause fire on their own. The only way to get a fire
causing repenter is to bond one with epic Feora.

Thanks for the advice Malfred!

Do people ever run multiple Choirs? Ie one held back to protect long range jacks like Redeemers from shooting, and one moving up with the HTH and Arc Node jacks? The Choir seems so cheap, and small ones would be easy to hide (risking getting collateral slam damage of course).

Yeah, it's kind of odd that neither the Repenter's Flamethrower nor the Vanquisher's "Flame Belcher" cannon cause critical Fire... Oh well.

Feora sounds interesting...I guess I'll have to pick up the Escalation and Apocalypse rulebooks eventually.

epic Feora is in the new book Superiority, by the way.

People run multiple choirs, yes. There are reasons.

1) Assassinations. People will use snipers like Eiryss to try and take out
your warpriest, so it's always good to have a spare.

2) Focus fodder. A High Reclaimer warjack army will use choir for ritual
sacrifice and feeding his warjacks with focus.

3) The reason you mention, except you have it a little turned around. The
redeemer gets infuse and the slow advancing heavies get protections.

People are all over the place on Protectorate Warjacks. Some refuse to
play heavies and only use the lights. Others don't use any warjacks at all.

Then you have the crazy Amon Ad-Raza players with multiple heavies.

Malfred:
Hmmm...interesting point on the Repenter. I don't play Menoth, but have friends that do. I have a large Cygnar force which has no fire weapons. They just assumed that all fire attacks can set something on fire. I never said anything since I wasn't clear on the rule. I will check it out. It should help my Long-Gunners.

If it causes a fire effect, it will say so on the card.

Things that cause fire

Crusader Inferno Mace - Critical Fire
Holy Zealots Grenade - Critical Fire (deviations can't critical though)
Castigator Flame Fists - Cause Fire on hits
Spell Cleansing Fire- Critical Fire
Immolation - Critical Fire
Cleanser Flamethrowers- Critical Fire
Cleanser Explosion - Auto fire within 3"
Spell Ignite- Upkeep spell Critical fire on melee attacks
Spell Wall of Fire- Auto fire for models crossing it
Paladin Firebrand- Critical Fire
Feora Flamethorwers and Melee Attacks- Critical fire
Feora Explosion- Auto fire within 3"
Feora Feat- Auto fire in ctrl area

There's a few I missed, but you get the idea. Repenter's not on the list.