Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mahtamori wrote:I do not know how to take a joke and must take every message very seriously!

well, i know that...

cheapbuster wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:I do not know how to take a joke and must take every message very seriously!

well, i know that...

QFT

<stay on topic; stay on topic!>

Mahtamori wrote:While rending makes sense on a unit that uses highly sophisticated chainswords, it does put Banshees out of work. Scorpions are as it is very effective against MEQ/TEQ when compared to Banshees and considering Scorpions aren't meant to be anywhere close to beating Banshees in that department.

Banshees need some way of gaining Furious Assault.

Banshees: Always strike first so the +1 I is a throw away - +1 S is an option but I cringe at that combined with Doom.
Perhaps preferred enemy as an exarch ability.
TODAY:30 PW attacks 15 hit, 5 wound 5 kill due to PW
TODAY w Doom: 30 PW/ 15 hit 8 wound 8 kill due to PW
Furious Assault: 30 PW attacks 15 hit 7.5 wound 7.5 kill
FA with Doom: 30 PW attacks 15 hit 11.25 wound 11.25 kill
Preferred enemy: 30 PW attacks 22.5 hit 7.5 kill
Preferred enemyw Doom 30 PW attacks 22.5 hit 12.5kill
WS5 w PE: 30 PW attacks 27 hit 9 kill
WS5 w PE & Doom: 30 PW attacks 27 hit 15 kill.

Pick your poison and cost accordingly. PE is persistent as of course is WS5. Furious assault is going to be the one round wonder and done.

Janthkin wrote:<stay on topic; stay on topic!>

Congrats on your modhood Janthkin

Anyway, back on topic.....

Mahtamori wrote:Banshees need some way of gaining Furious Assault.

In the version I posted I was just giving it to them as a basic special rule for the unit, not tired to an exarch power or anything. I also gave Scorps a rule (can't remember if it was stealth or infiltrate) so they would stay at a similar point level.

Their Exarch powers could then allow them to assault from a moving transport and have an initiative (rather than Ld) based version of Warshout.

Are we still thinking of giving both aspects base 2 attacks (4 on the charge for banshees, 5 for scorps?). I don't know why, but I feel like that's too many for HB's, especially with furious charge. 36 S4 power weapon attacks and 4 S6 is enough to hurt hoardes just as well as scorpions should, and more than enough to wipe a 10 man SM squad off the board.

Well, the closest equivalent to be found are Incubi. Coming in at another 6 points they have one more WS, I, and S as well as one point better save.
We already know that the current version of the Banshee cost too much, although if they have some means of gaining close combat from transport not so much (I still think that pure foot should be viable - but this is a poison of 6th edition where transports are universally too cheap, and where assault from deap strike too common).

Banshees with their current armament would exchange the Incubi's +1S with a pistol (+1A and neglible ranged attack). How much is that change worth? What about the rest of the profile?
I'd personally land Banshees at around 18-20 points, a bit depending on what happens with psychic powers.
Now, the question remains what role the Scorpions serve if Banshees are model-effective at destroying hordes as well? Of course, a Scorpion could be altered to provide a defensive/stealth role. The alteration wouldn't be a whole lot, infiltrate base and then an exarch power Defend and you've got a whole completely different cup of tea where the Banshees is assault and the Scorpion is defense (rather than MEQ vs GEQ)

I actually agree a lot with Mahtamori.
Also, since the whole point of this codex suggestion is to keep things fluffy, Karandras did train the scorpions to be patient killers. As far as I remembered, one of the new suggested exarch powers (since infiltrate became a base ability of theirs) was to give them a "Pathfinder cover save", e.g. +2 to any cover save (so 5+ becomes 3+, and so on).
I would suggest also giving them some sort of ambush ability that really allows them to lie in waiting. I don't know if this is in any way feascible, but it strikes me as fluffy and cool.
But since we are talking about HB and SS, where would we like to put the Harlequins, and for what cost? I mean, we've discussed them as being middle ground soldiers (between GEQ and MEQ) but if we merely make HB offense oriented and SS defence oriented, what do we want to do with the Monster Clowns?
I would actually like to refer back to a previous suggestion of mine, regarding an Eldar webway portal possibility. Why not make the Harlequins an extremely aggressive unit that might just as well be made of paper? Since they are the Eldar that know the Webway the best, let them have some way of Deep Striking and spreading carnage... with their puny 5++ save which of course means that they would die rather quickly.

The only problem I have with 'Quins having something like a WWP is that it would basically make the shadowseer and deathjester pointless. If they appeared right up in your opponents face the VoT would be useless. I'd prefer them to be the foot-slogging alternative to HB's. If a kiss was included in their base cost (as discussed before) they could dance their way up the board (maybe a unit of 5-15?) and then rend stuff to death. As you wouldnt have to factor in the cost of a waveserpent, they would be a really good offensive CC unit in lower point games.

And perhaps you could even give them some neat, expensive upgrades that would make them great in higher points games too?
I just don't like the idea that one unit is only good at a set amount of points, sure they might be BETTER at low points, I just also want them to be usable at higher points.

What Eldar need is an OT transport for HB so they don't just bail out of a WS and die...

I think it was agreed pretty early that OT were NOT the way to go for Eldar. Doesn't fit them at all.
Instead we plan to give HB an exarch power so they can assault after disembarking.

The issue with just introducing an open topped transport is that does a lot more than just help HB's. It means Dragons can move and shoot without disembarking, or disembark and shoot and assault. It makes the foot-council really scary, without the massive cost of the jet-council. It means you can do a drive by bladestorm without having to disembark. And that's just naming the first things of the top of my head.

Gorechild wrote:The issue with just introducing an open topped transport is that does a lot more than just help HB's. It means Dragons can move and shoot without disembarking, or disembark and shoot and assault. It makes the foot-council really scary, without the massive cost of the jet-council. It means you can do a drive by bladestorm without having to disembark. And that's just naming the first things of the top of my head.

Well HB's are not that great in the current rules. You either should go big or go home if you include them in your list, one squad of 10 really won't cut it when your opponent will just gun them down if they disembark, then again you can keep them in move 6" run then assault

Yes, that's why the Assault Drill exatch power for HB came up here - so that they can assault out of their transport. That would avoid the balance issues Gorechild just posted.

Saintspirit wrote:Yes, that's why the Assault Drill exatch power for HB came up here - so that they can assault out of their transport. That would avoid the balance issues Gorechild just posted.

But there is a heavy balance factor for the OT vehicle, you could say it would be expensive, and then be AV 10 all round so you are paying a price to do the factors mentioned, the fact that the vehicle would be easy to destroy would be quite a big negative factor as it could be destroyed first turn of the game, this would balance it a bit more.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Gorechild wrote:The issue with just introducing an open topped transport is that does a lot more than just help HB's. It means Dragons can move and shoot without disembarking, or disembark and shoot and assault. It makes the foot-council really scary, without the massive cost of the jet-council. It means you can do a drive by bladestorm without having to disembark. And that's just naming the first things of the top of my head.

Well HB's are not that great in the current rules. You either should go big or go home if you include them in your list, one squad of 10 really won't cut it when your opponent will just gun them down if they disembark, then again you can keep them in move 6" run then assault

That's why we were suggesting other changes (a better version of warshout, Furious charge as standard, the assault drill power) to make them a better unit in their own right. Adding open topped would have a significant knock-on effect with other units would mess with the ballance of the entire codex.

Gorechild wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Gorechild wrote:The issue with just introducing an open topped transport is that does a lot more than just help HB's. It means Dragons can move and shoot without disembarking, or disembark and shoot and assault. It makes the foot-council really scary, without the massive cost of the jet-council. It means you can do a drive by bladestorm without having to disembark. And that's just naming the first things of the top of my head.

Well HB's are not that great in the current rules. You either should go big or go home if you include them in your list, one squad of 10 really won't cut it when your opponent will just gun them down if they disembark, then again you can keep them in move 6" run then assault

That's why we were suggesting other changes (a better version of warshout, Furious charge as standard, the assault drill power) to make them a better unit in their own right. Adding open topped would have a significant knock-on effect with other units would mess with the ballance of the entire codex.

I just think that Furious charge would be unfair though, the point of having scorps is that they are S4 with no power weapon, if you gave the banshees furious charge then they would be much better than scorpions and you would take them every time. I10 S4 power weapons on the first round, that's going to mess up any unit!

I don't think the OT vehicle would be such a bad idea, it would mean that yes, you can fire out of it, but when DA's and FD's have a 4+ save it isn't so bad because when you pop the vehicle it won't be too hard to kill the guys, you could also make it the Eldar Equivilent to a Venom to stop you having 10 guys in there spamming with Bladestorm or Fusion Guns

It's not very fluffy either. The eldar vehicles are designed to protect the passengers while they advance, but open-topped don't offer much of that. The Dark Eldar are more ruthless and don't care much about their lives, so they have those raiders.

I just think that Furious charge would be unfair though, the point of having scorps is that they are S4 with no power weapon, if you gave the banshees furious charge then they would be much better than scorpions and you would take them every time. I10 S4 power weapons on the first round, that's going to mess up any unit!

This I agree with. If they are given furious charge, scorps definitely needs something big to even it up. We spoke of earlier to give both HB and SS two attacks, maybe that only scorps gain an additional attack if HB have furious charge?

I liked Mahtamori's idea of making HB's an attacking unit and making SS's a defensive unit, rather than the current MEQ/GEQ divide. I don't know how it could be done though, I'll have a think and see if I can come up with anything.

If we were going for a simple fix I'd say give SS's 2 attacks and keep HB's with 1 (Scorps would have 5 on the charge; 2 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge, 1 for mandiblaster. Banshees would have 3; 1 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge), because banshee's would still make a mess of hordes if they had 4 strength 4 attacks each on the charge.

Gorechild wrote:I liked Mahtamori's idea of making HB's an attacking unit and making SS's a defensive unit, rather than the current MEQ/GEQ divide. I don't know how it could be done though, I'll have a think and see if I can come up with anything.

If we were going for a simple fix I'd say give SS's 2 attacks and keep HB's with 1 (Scorps would have 5 on the charge; 2 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge, 1 for mandiblaster. Banshees would have 3; 1 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge), because banshee's would still make a mess of hordes if they had 4 strength 4 attacks each on the charge.

Banshees would make a mess of anything

You would defo have to increase base points cost if they had 4 attacks on the charge S4 with a 4+ save, with power weapon attacks. 16 points for that is a bargain.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I liked Mahtamori's idea of making HB's an attacking unit and making SS's a defensive unit, rather than the current MEQ/GEQ divide. I don't know how it could be done though, I'll have a think and see if I can come up with anything.

If we were going for a simple fix I'd say give SS's 2 attacks and keep HB's with 1 (Scorps would have 5 on the charge; 2 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge, 1 for mandiblaster. Banshees would have 3; 1 base, 1 for pistol + CCW, 1 for charge), because banshee's would still make a mess of hordes if they had 4 strength 4 attacks each on the charge.

Banshees would make a mess of anything

You would defo have to increase base points cost if they had 4 attacks on the charge S4 with a 4+ save, with power weapon attacks. 16 points for that is a bargain.

Maybe, The closest comparison would be DE Incubi, they are 22 points. But they have 3+ armour and are S4 all the time, not just the turn they charge. I think that the Banshee's are over costed for what they can do at the moment, I'd probably put them down at about 18 ppm if we put those changes in. Maybe 100 points for 5 (including exarch), then the option to add up to 5 more for 18 points each. that would probably put a full unit of 10 + exarch powers around the 220 point mark (exactly the same as 10 incubi).

Not really, it would make 10 Banshees with exarch cost 190, although of course you may add exarch powers (but so can Incubi).
Also, with what you propose, Banshees would only have 3 strength 4 attacks on the charge, not 4 (if we assume that Banshees will still only have one attack on their statline). Just to make things clear.

The problem with HB is they only work one round and they really only shine when the opponent is doomed.

So right now HB - in groups of 10 - generate 20 S3 attacks, will hit an average of 10 times and kill about 3.3 of the enemy. 5 kills on the charge.

A couple of suggestions have been raised before.

1. Increase all aspects A +1. That takes us to 5 kills and 6.67 on the charge.

2. Increase the WS to 5. This is probably the nastiest as with 1 base A this goes 4+ kills, 6.67 on the charge and with +1 A, 6.67 kills 9 kills on the charge.

Other options have been talked about like furious charge or preferred enemy but I like the cleanness of +1 A and perhaps +1 WS.

Now to the abilities, you have War Shout and Acrobatics.
I think Acrobatics screams to be changed into our assault out of a vehicle ability. War Shout is awesome for the 1 in 12 combats an opponent actually fails their leadership but I would like a more toned down version but something that will affect the enemy more often. Perhaps Ld test on 3d6 and the effect is -1 WS and -1 S on the target unit.

Gorechild wrote:Maybe, The closest comparison would be DE Incubi, they are 22 points. But they have 3+ armour and are S4 all the time, not just the turn they charge. I think that the Banshee's are over costed for what they can do at the moment, I'd probably put them down at about 18 ppm if we put those changes in. Maybe 100 points for 5 (including exarch), then the option to add up to 5 more for 18 points each. that would probably put a full unit of 10 + exarch powers around the 220 point mark (exactly the same as 10 incubi).

I guess 220 sounds fair, but then again it wouldn't be just those points im mentioning, Banshees have I10 on the first round aswell so they will go before anything no matter what (unless it's GK quicksilver) and then you can give them counter attack, so if they get assaulted then you still get your 4 attacks. They would be pretty mean for 16 points each = 160 + Exarch = 170 + Warshout = (dunno points) But around the 220 mark for 10 seems fair.

Well blood letters are 16 points for WS5 S4 T4 A2 I4 and furious charge, but there save is only a 5+ inv, so i dont think HB's need to be 18 points

cheapbuster wrote:Well blood letters are 17 points for WS5 S4 T4 A2 I4 and furious charge, but there save is only a 5+ inv, so i dont think HB's need to be 18 points

Yeah but they have I10 first round of assault, reguardless of any modifiers, so even if you charge into cover or are affected by special grenades you are still I10 first round. Plus they are I5 standard and have fleet of foot when letters don't. Then theres all the powers that you can give them with the exarch (Counter attack or make an enemy pass a ld test or he is WS 1. And they aren't that expensive. So if you put that with furious charge that makes it seem like 18 points per model is a fair choice, if you add the extra attack and the such.

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

cheapbuster wrote:Well blood letters are 17 points for WS5 S4 T4 A2 I4 and furious charge, but there save is only a 5+ inv, so i dont think HB's need to be 18 points

Yeah but they have I10 first round of assault, reguardless of any modifiers, so even if you charge into cover or are affected by special grenades you are still I10 first round. Plus they are I5 standard and have fleet of foot when letters don't. Then theres all the powers that you can give them with the exarch (Counter attack or make an enemy pass a ld test or he is WS 1. And they aren't that expensive. So if you put that with furious charge that makes it seem like 18 points per model is a fair choice, if you add the extra attack and the such.

Isnt this ideas for the next codex not the rules for the current? and how does the fact that you can have some upgrades change the points ?

cheapbuster wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

cheapbuster wrote:Well blood letters are 17 points for WS5 S4 T4 A2 I4 and furious charge, but there save is only a 5+ inv, so i dont think HB's need to be 18 points

Yeah but they have I10 first round of assault, reguardless of any modifiers, so even if you charge into cover or are affected by special grenades you are still I10 first round. Plus they are I5 standard and have fleet of foot when letters don't. Then theres all the powers that you can give them with the exarch (Counter attack or make an enemy pass a ld test or he is WS 1. And they aren't that expensive. So if you put that with furious charge that makes it seem like 18 points per model is a fair choice, if you add the extra attack and the such.

Isnt this ideas for the next codex not the rules for the current? and how does the fact that you can have some upgrades change the points ?

This is ideas for the new codex. Currently HB's are 16 points, so if you gave them furious charge and the extra basic attack then surely that is at least a 2 point bonus per model?

They're not bonus points. maybe give them granades and make their mask like the blood angels death masks but with a different effect


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Instead of the assault drill maybe some vehicles can have a kind of WWP build on or maybe as an upgrade of 20 points or so, they would work like a land raider assault ramp allowing units to assault after disembarking

I'm going to stick my 2 cents in this convo.

HBs are supposed to be quick and deadly, like samurai. Base A2 (A4 on the charge is fine). No rending is necessary as they already have power weapons and the goals is not to see them light-saboring through a vehicle. Keep their S and T at 3 and their save where it is *but make it invulnerable to represent their agility. I agree with allowing them to assault/fleet from vehicles.

SS as CC specialists should also be A2 base. Let them pull a marbo or a lictor deployment to represent their sneakyness. Give them stealth while you are at it. Rending is good for their uber blender-blades. I do not see what else is necessary above and beyond what they already have.