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I’m not sure the medic guy is worth bothering with if he costs more than a normal guy. I’d just have more ordinary guys. The medic’s ability to fail to bring another guy back to life while failing to shoot, sucks. It’s a flavour ability and nothing more.

Yeah. The Apothecary would be a better bet, and look at how popular they aren't.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There are two precedents that could be used for determining the cost of the Infiltrator Helix Adept. He could be like a Boss Nob and have the same price as the rest of the unit. He could also be like a Wolf Guard Pack Leader and have a separate price. I am hoping he is more like a Boss Nob. Though the fact the PL goes up by 6 instead of 5 leads me to believe he will be more like a WGPL.

I tend to agree. although the idea of the Helix adept is an intreasting one, an enchouragement for taking squads larger then 5. which is a good idea and something that we need more of.

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There are two precedents that could be used for determining the cost of the Infiltrator Helix Adept. He could be like a Boss Nob and have the same price as the rest of the unit. He could also be like a Wolf Guard Pack Leader and have a separate price. I am hoping he is more like a Boss Nob. Though the fact the PL goes up by 6 instead of 5 leads me to believe he will be more like a WGPL.

I tend to agree. although the idea of the Helix adept is an intreasting one, an enchouragement for taking squads larger then 5. which is a good idea and something that we need more of.

Yeah, I am hoping for him being able to be one of the five minimum models in a squad when the final rules. I prefer smaller squads for my Crimson Fists since I get the bonus faster for Chapter Tactics.

I am definitely looking forward to seeing the Suppressors help my Intercessors out so I can charge those Power Fists in and pound away.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
There are two precedents that could be used for determining the cost of the Infiltrator Helix Adept. He could be like a Boss Nob and have the same price as the rest of the unit. He could also be like a Wolf Guard Pack Leader and have a separate price. I am hoping he is more like a Boss Nob. Though the fact the PL goes up by 6 instead of 5 leads me to believe he will be more like a WGPL.

I tend to agree. although the idea of the Helix adept is an intreasting one, an enchouragement for taking squads larger then 5. which is a good idea and something that we need more of.

Yeah, I am hoping for him being able to be one of the five minimum models in a squad when the final rules. I prefer smaller squads for my Crimson Fists since I get the bonus faster for Chapter Tactics.

I am definitely looking forward to seeing the Suppressors help my Intercessors out so I can charge those Power Fists in and pound away.

Most people prefer the smaller squad size and there's precisely no real reason, aside from some stratagiums, to EVER take a squad of 10 instead of 2 squads of 5. this seems to me to be GW trying to quietly address this issue.

I'm thinking that the warlord traits could combine nicely with the indomatus crusaders formation with the field commander stratigium,

Yeah I wonder if these warlord traits come as part of a specialist detachment or something. Otherwise it's unclear how they work - will they just add to the standard ones available to SM/CSM?

For what it's worth I do take 10-man intercessor squads now, in the Indominatus Crusaders detachment. I can make 10 of them veterans and then combat squad them if I want. I also have 8 riding in a repulsor (at least until my first movement phase) with my Captain and Lieutenant.

It seems odd for infiltrators though. The first 5 are worth a lot more than the second 5. You already have your bubble from 5 guys and increasing the squad size doesn't enlarge it that much. They are troops, so taking a second 5 man squad is basically always a better option for your army list.

You could take a squad of 10 and combat squad them but that doesn't seem a great option. The medic guy in a 5 man squad may not get a chance to heal anyone and his section will have lower LD (or I guess you could put him and the sergeant together).

If I took infiltrators it'd be one or two 5-man squads I think. Maybe a third if you get really good benefits for a whole detachment of vanguard.

Quick question:
Deathwatch is the only option if I wanna deepstrike some hellblasters right?

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I wonder if these warlord traits come as part of a specialist detachment or something. Otherwise it's unclear how they work - will they just add to the standard ones available to SM/CSM?

For what it's worth I do take 10-man intercessor squads now, in the Indominatus Crusaders detachment. I can make 10 of them veterans and then combat squad them if I want. I also have 8 riding in a repulsor (at least until my first movement phase) with my Captain and Lieutenant.

It seems odd for infiltrators though. The first 5 are worth a lot more than the second 5. You already have your bubble from 5 guys and increasing the squad size doesn't enlarge it that much. They are troops, so taking a second 5 man squad is basically always a better option for your army list.

You could take a squad of 10 and combat squad them but that doesn't seem a great option. The medic guy in a 5 man squad may not get a chance to heal anyone and his section will have lower LD (or I guess you could put him and the sergeant together).

If I took infiltrators it'd be one or two 5-man squads I think. Maybe a third if you get really good benefits for a whole detachment of vanguard.

I’m personally looking at the idea of 2 5-man squads and 1 10-man squad, initially. The idea behind the 10-man squad is to get the benefit of the re-roll hits from the new Libby, and, in ITC etc missions where you deploy back and forth, the 10-man gives you that extra bit of “nope” if you get first drop and your opponent has units that can do the same.

However, the 10-man and power usage would depend on matchup, and in cases where you don’t really need the power or need the extra obsec unit, then combat squadding would be the go-to.

Kdash wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah I wonder if these warlord traits come as part of a specialist detachment or something. Otherwise it's unclear how they work - will they just add to the standard ones available to SM/CSM?

For what it's worth I do take 10-man intercessor squads now, in the Indominatus Crusaders detachment. I can make 10 of them veterans and then combat squad them if I want. I also have 8 riding in a repulsor (at least until my first movement phase) with my Captain and Lieutenant.

It seems odd for infiltrators though. The first 5 are worth a lot more than the second 5. You already have your bubble from 5 guys and increasing the squad size doesn't enlarge it that much. They are troops, so taking a second 5 man squad is basically always a better option for your army list.

You could take a squad of 10 and combat squad them but that doesn't seem a great option. The medic guy in a 5 man squad may not get a chance to heal anyone and his section will have lower LD (or I guess you could put him and the sergeant together).

If I took infiltrators it'd be one or two 5-man squads I think. Maybe a third if you get really good benefits for a whole detachment of vanguard.

I’m personally looking at the idea of 2 5-man squads and 1 10-man squad, initially. The idea behind the 10-man squad is to get the benefit of the re-roll hits from the new Libby, and, in ITC etc missions where you deploy back and forth, the 10-man gives you that extra bit of “nope” if you get first drop and your opponent has units that can do the same.

However, the 10-man and power usage would depend on matchup, and in cases where you don’t really need the power or need the extra obsec unit, then combat squadding would be the go-to.

That power is great, but unfortunately there's nobody good to cast it on. I'm not sure it's really worth it on even 10 infiltrators. The squad and the librarian come to 320 points (331 if you need to pay for the librarian's cloak and sword, more with a helix guy). I could have 20 intercessors for 340 points, and that just seems far better. Twice as many shots, better range and -1ap to cancel out cover.

I do quite like the librarian. I'm just not totally sure what to do with him. The power that slows things is situationally useful and the option to get CPs back is always nice. Shrouding looks awesome but again who do you cast it on? Infitlrators are close to the enemy and characters already have that rule. Snipers? The librarian can improve them a lot, but I'm not convinced his buffs are better than just buying more snipers.

The more I look at 'em, the more I start to appreciate Eliminators. Their no LOS ammo is pretty good to take out AM characters camping somewhere and the d3 damage ammo is adequate to make any kind of support character think twice about sticking his head out, mainly psyker, be it the T3 or T4 variety. Also potentially good sniping heralds. They have cloaks and can be protected by the one Vanguard power that essentially given them the character rule. I would mind taking 6 dudes, depending on their cost.

Edit: English is hard. As is reading...

 Trade_Prince wrote:
The more I look at 'em, the more I start to appreciate Eradicators. Their no LOS ammo is pretty good to take out AM characters camping somewhere and the d3 damage ammo is adequate to make any kind of support character sticking his head out, mainly psyker, be it the T3 or T4 variety. Also potentially good sniping heralds. They have cloaks and can be protected by the one Vanguard power that essentially given them the character rule. I would mind taking 6 dudes, depending on their cost.

Agreed. Being able to take our targets you can’t see is always huge. They can even wear down things like dark reapers.

It looks like they’re 24 points, at least in shadowspear. 72 points makes them the cheapest non-character primaris unit. As such I’m not sure it’s worth buying a librarian to shroud them when you could just buy more instead.

I could easily see myself fielding 10 of these guys or more. Characters are so integral to so many armies that removing them could easily win games. Their firepower is actually kind of fine against a lot of targets too. Getting rid of models with a 1+ save isn’t easy, either.

Yeah, I don’t like the 3 man max size as I tend to use 2-3 heavy slots already, but Eliminators ended up being priced so cheap I’m definitely going to try to fit a few into my list which has several sniper scout units to synergize with. If these guys were the FA unit instead of Supressors I’d have almost certainly added 3 units. I was originally assuming GW would price them at 30+ each and wrote them off.

I’m working on the principle that the mini-codex in shadowspear aren’t the final rules, just as those in DI weren’t. So hopefully we’ll get bigger squad sizes. We may also see different points. If I recall correctly, intercessors had different points in DI, the index and the codex, for example. Things might have settled down a bit for now, but I’m not yet ready to take anything in shadowspear as gospel.

As such I’m probably not going to buy the set. The monopose models aren’t as good as full kits and I’ll probably have to buy the rules again too in some format or other - I’m guessing vigilus 2.

Edited for damn autocorrect...

Mandragola wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
The more I look at 'em, the more I start to appreciate Eliminators. Their no LOS ammo is pretty good to take out AM characters camping somewhere and the d3 damage ammo is adequate to make any kind of support character sticking his head out, mainly psyker, be it the T3 or T4 variety. Also potentially good sniping heralds. They have cloaks and can be protected by the one Vanguard power that essentially given them the character rule. I would mind taking 6 dudes, depending on their cost.

Agreed. Being able to take our targets you can’t see is always huge. They can even wear down things like dark reapers.

It looks like they’re 24 points, at least in shadowspear. 72 points makes them the cheapest non-character primaris unit. As such I’m not sure it’s worth buying a librarian to shroud them when you could just buy more instead.

I could easily see myself fielding 10 of these guys or more. Characters are so integral to so many armies that removing them could easily win games. Their firepower is actually kind of fine against a lot of targets too. Getting rid of models with a 1+ save isn’t easy, either.

They'll probably be purchasable in increments of 3, like Aggressors. To be fair though, 6 will do in most cases, provided they can access some sort of re-rolls. As for the Vanguard Libby, he has powers that make him useful in other situations. For example, he can do the CP gain power to help snipe characters.

I was thinking Vanguard Libby, 10 Infiltrators, 6 Eliminators. That covers a HQ and a Troops slot. You'll have a threat to characters, support powers, some freedom in positioning and a way to block out deep striking melee units. I think that's a solid deal. Definitely not the worst trade deal ever made
Then sprinkle it with your preferred Chapter's flavour. I am looking at my two Intercessors, WG Battle Leader, Dakka Redemptor, outflanking Hellblasters and random Fenrisian/Cyber Wolves dogging around scoring stuff. Primaris keyword Wulfen were obviously too much to ask for, even though it is supported by fluff

Wulfen do look basically the ideal size to fit in a repulsor. Silly that they don't. But there's no point going over that kind of thing again.

I could see myself bringing a spearhead featuring a couple of units of eliminators, the librarian, and a bunch of hellblasters in a repulsor. I'd probably take a 10-man unit but usually combat squad them, because there are now some crimson fist stratagems and the +1 to hit warlord trait that benefit big units.

My current list has a knight lance of a crusader and two warglaives in. I think I'm going to drop 5 intercessors to make room for an assassin, as their new WD mini-dex makes them pretty interesting. It does mean my list will chomp through an awful lot of CPs at the start of the game though. And the situation oddly gets worse if I lose the knights, as at least they bring some CPs of their own along.

edit: wrong thread

Mandragola wrote:
I’m working on the principle that the mini-codex in shadowspear aren’t the final rules, just as those in DI weren’t. So hopefully we’ll get bigger squad sizes. We may also see different points. If I recall correctly, intercessors had different points in DI, the index and the codex, for example. Things might have settled down a bit for now, but I’m not yet ready to take anything in shadowspear as gospel.

As such I’m probably not going to buy the set. The monopose models aren’t as good as full kits and I’ll probably have to buy the rules again too in some format or other - I’m guessing vigilus 2.

Edited for damn autocorrect...

Looks like all three had them at 20 points and it wasn't until CA17 that they dropped. That's quite a long wait...

It was 18 months from DI launch to CA18 and their drop to 17 where they stand today.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 buddha wrote:
Short IK tournament report out. Had a local RTT this weekend and my house Raven walked. It was an exalted court with a lancer leading a castellan and a warden with two warglaives. The last points were a barebones skitarii battalion.

I think you're in the wrong thread here, buddy. Was kind of hard to figure out how any of this matters for Primaris tactica...

Nope. Intercessors were 24 points per model in the primaris mini codex with DI.
They dropped to 20 in the index. 18 in the codex and 17 in CA18.
I've got all of them in front of me.

Zustiur wrote:
Nope. Intercessors were 24 points per model in the primaris mini codex with DI.
They dropped to 20 in the index. 18 in the codex and 17 in CA18.
I've got all of them in front of me.

and if we go by what Jess Goodwin said, these guys may have been designed around the same time. it's possiable Infiltrators are intended to cost as much as a intercessor. which frankly would be insane

Hellblasters and inceptors went through similar changes.
Hb: 23+17 to 20+18 to 18+15
Inceptors with bolters: 39+7+7 to 45+15+15 to 25+10+10
So there's no reason to suppose that the numbers in shadow spear are in any way final.

(I have the EPUB version of the codex so it might not be the original space marine codex numbers. I penciled in a cost of 30 into the index at some point so that might have been the original inceptors codex price)

BrianDavion wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
Nope. Intercessors were 24 points per model in the primaris mini codex with DI.
They dropped to 20 in the index. 18 in the codex and 17 in CA18.
I've got all of them in front of me.

and if we go by what Jess Goodwin said, these guys may have been designed around the same time. it's possiable Infiltrators are intended to cost as much as a intercessor. which frankly would be insane

Infiltrators should cost more than Intercessors, but not 5 ppm more, but about 2 ppm, 3 ppm at most.

They should pay for Infiltrate and Omniscramblers and get a discount because their weapons are, once you do the math, worse.
Their smoke grenade-ability isn't worth enough to warrant a pricetag.

Edit: With that said, I'm still waiting for Reivers to recieve their well-deserved pointdrop, but alas nothing happened in CA2018.

I took 15th place in a 40 player event today. Not bad for pure infantry primaris! ITC format.
Crimson fists.
Captain with relic fist
Lieutenant with relic bolter
3*5 HB
4*5 intercessors
1*4 inceptors
1250 points.
2 wins tables opponents in both
2 losses, only tabled once.

WLLW.

Zustiur wrote:
I took 15th place in a 40 player event today. Not bad for pure infantry primaris! ITC format.
Crimson fists.
Captain with relic fist
Lieutenant with relic bolter
3*5 HB
4*5 intercessors
1*4 inceptors
1250 points.
2 wins tables opponents in both
2 losses, only tabled once.

WLLW.

Captain and LT oldmarines or primaris?

 argonak wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
I took 15th place in a 40 player event today. Not bad for pure infantry primaris! ITC format.
Crimson fists.
Captain with relic fist
Lieutenant with relic bolter
3*5 HB
4*5 intercessors
1*4 inceptors
1250 points.
2 wins tables opponents in both
2 losses, only tabled once.

WLLW.

Captain and LT oldmarines or primaris?

he said pure primaris

Anybody had luck with suppressors so far?

BrianDavion wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
I took 15th place in a 40 player event today. Not bad for pure infantry primaris! ITC format.
Crimson fists.
Captain with relic fist
Lieutenant with relic bolter
3*5 HB
4*5 intercessors
1*4 inceptors
1250 points.
2 wins tables opponents in both
2 losses, only tabled once.

WLLW.

Captain and LT oldmarines or primaris?

he said pure primaris

Primaris can’t have relic bolter as far my book says, unless crimson fists have a relic bolt rifle, I don’t have their rules.. Thus my question.

 argonak wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
I took 15th place in a 40 player event today. Not bad for pure infantry primaris! ITC format.
Crimson fists.
Captain with relic fist
Lieutenant with relic bolter
3*5 HB
4*5 intercessors
1*4 inceptors
1250 points.
2 wins tables opponents in both
2 losses, only tabled once.

WLLW.

Captain and LT oldmarines or primaris?

he said pure primaris

Primaris can’t have relic bolter as far my book says, unless crimson fists have a relic bolt rifle, I don’t have their rules.. Thus my question.

they do indeed have a relic bolter

 argonak wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
I took 15th place in a 40 player event today. Not bad for pure infantry primaris! ITC format.
Crimson fists.
Captain with relic fist
Lieutenant with relic bolter
3*5 HB
4*5 intercessors
1*4 inceptors
1250 points.
2 wins tables opponents in both
2 losses, only tabled once.

WLLW.

Captain and LT oldmarines or primaris?

he said pure primaris

Primaris can’t have relic bolter as far my book says, unless crimson fists have a relic bolt rifle, I don’t have their rules.. Thus my question.

They have a relic bolt rifle from the WD Index. Duty's Burden - replaces bolt rifle or master crafted auto or stalker. 36" RF2 S5 AP-2 D2.

Due to a quirk with the way it's written there's an argument to be made that the beta bolter rules wouldn't affect this weapon if given to a Captain or Lt.

Yes. I was using duty's burden. Absolutely great relic. Of course, chaos now have an even better one.
I can see the reasoning about bolter discipline not applying but it's clearly a bolt weapon and is rapid fire. Dorn's Arrow counts so if be surprised if anyone argued.

Hmm interesting. I suppose that technically duty's burden would get the beta rules if you gave it to an ancient, but not a captain or lieutenant.

It's awesome. My lieutenant shot 6 wounds off a (rather unlucky) knight with it in a game at the other weekend. If I wasn't already throwing CPs around like crazy at assassins and veteran intercessors I'd take it every game.