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 Icculus wrote:

meleti wrote:
Spotted in an undefeated list at Dallas GT.

Yeah I'd be curious to see what the rest of the list was.

The formatting is a little unclear throughout, but:

Black Heart battalion
2 Archons (husk blades and PGL)
25 Warriors
Lhamaean
9 Venoms
3 Ravagers (dis)

Red Grief battalion
2 Succubi (glaives)
15 Wyches (shardnets)

Harlequin Veiled Path outrider
Shadowseer
6 Skyweavers (zephyrglaives and haywire)

meleti wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

meleti wrote:
Spotted in an undefeated list at Dallas GT.

Yeah I'd be curious to see what the rest of the list was.

The formatting is a little unclear throughout, but:

Black Heart battalion
2 Archons (husk blades and PGL)
25 Warriors
Lhamaean
9 Venoms
3 Ravagers (dis)

Red Grief battalion
2 Succubi (glaives)
15 Wyches (shardnets)

Harlequin Veiled Path outrider
Shadowseer
6 Skyweavers (zephyrglaives and haywire)

Lol, that list came loaded for bear. What was the plan if they went up against a mechanized list? Weight of fire? Not familiar with Harlequins, so I don’t know what they bring.

Those Harlequin bikes are decent at killing vehicles, the Haywires can dish out some mortal wounds when shooting at vehicles. But yeah, blaster spam this ain’t.

Well, 2 Skyweaers is (on average) almost equivalent to an entire 5-man Scourge squad with Haywire, so they did have quite a bit of anti-vehicle.

It is rather concentrated, though. If I was playing a vehicle-heavy army, I know what I'd aim for first.

Plus with the webway assault, the harlequin bikes can deepstrike. So even if you had first turn, you wouldnt be able to target them. Real tricky

 Icculus wrote:
Plus with the webway assault, the harlequin bikes can deepstrike. So even if you had first turn, you wouldnt be able to target them. Real tricky

Although it’s listed as a single unit of 6 skyweavers, it must actually be 3 units of 2 bikes each as it’s in an outrider detachment. That means you probably can’t hide all 6 bikes in reserve - at least 2 would need to start on the table, although that wouldn’t be too hard to fit behind some LOS blocking terrain.

I like the list, but would try to switch it a bit myself to fit in a single unit of Harlequins in a Starweaver with Fusion pistols. That would make the Shadowseer a bit more useful, as she could then Twilight Pathways the squad up the board to take out something big. I assume in the current list she is there primarily to provide DTW coverage and debuffs/smites. Not bad, but not really using the model to its fullest either. Obviously, this list went undefeated, so what do I know, I could be making it worse

 Sinful Hero wrote:

Lol, that list came loaded for bear. What was the plan if they went up against a mechanized list? Weight of fire? Not familiar with Harlequins, so I don’t know what they bring.

6D6 haywire, plus Dissies rerolling 1s to hit/wound. Not sure if there are Blasters in the Kab squads or not. That's plenty.

If not, just charge vehicles with Venoms/Wyches/Raiders. so they can't shoot.

I was there at the GT, actually played my last game on the table next to this list. It was vs 180 Ork list with 180 boyz, 7 mek guns, 45 grots and some characters. He killed ALL the boyz, and still had stuff on the board.

He is also a really good player, new what secondaries to pick, how to use LoS and manuever to avoid his venoms getting shot. New his units really well, and he rolled fast.

It was crazy watching these guys. I fortunately didn't have to play it, but I don't know what could be done. I foresee a nerf in venoms, probably a point increase for sure.

So, of the court of the archon, which ones are the best. I haven't really studied them too much but am thinking about getting a lhameaen or medusae. but really which ones worthwhile and what are their major purposes besides being the sacrificial death if you happen to roll a 1 when your venom is destroyed?

 Icculus wrote:
So, of the court of the archon, which ones are the best. I haven't really studied them too much but am thinking about getting a lhameaen or medusae. but really which ones worthwhile and what are their major purposes besides being the sacrificial death if you happen to roll a 1 when your venom is destroyed?

A quick rundown:

Sslyth - These are a little like demi-Grotesques. They're not quite as tough or strong (though still T5 with 3 wounds and a 5++), but they carry Shardcarbines and can tank wounds for an Archon. Do note that they don't have PfP - so no hitting on 2s in melee and no rerolling charges.

They're okay, but quite expensive. And whether Archons even need a bodyguard unit is questionable.

Medusae - Suicidal pseudo-flamers who demand that an HQ accompany them in their suicide missions. For some reason, these do have PfP, even though they have no meaningful melee ability to speak of.

The thing is, their shooting ability really isn't impressive and the 9" range is terrible. And you're not allowed to increase it even with Obsidian Rose. What's more, it's not even a pistol. So once they fire their 9" range weapons, the enemy just has to lock them in melee and they're stuffed.

Ur-Ghuls - They get 6 S4 attacks on the charge... and that's about it. Like the Sslyth, they have a 5++ (though they're T3), but no PfP - which is very disappointing for a melee unit. Also, with no AP and just 1 damage, their attacks aren't even anything to write home about.

Lhamaeans - Glass cannons with (effectively) Poison 2+ melee weapons that deal a mortal wound to non-vehicles on a 4+ to wound. They do have PfP.

These are pretty good, with a unit of 3 frequently doing far more damage then the accompanying Archon.


Anyway, I rate Lhamaeans the highest, as those mortal wounds hurt so many units. Sslyth are close behind, having pretty good stats and being nice all-rounders, though also quite pricey. Medusae and Ur-Ghuls both seem pretty bad, certainly far worse than the other two.

I'd lean towards running 3 Lhamaeans with an expendable (i.e. not Warlord) Archon, and basically just ramming them into the hardest non-vehicle target in my opponent's army. If you manage this on turn 3, then you've got 6 attacks, hitting on 2s with rerolls and then (assuming Poison Tongue) wounding on 2s with rerolls (and any rolls of 4+ cause a Mortal Wound in addition to the regular damage). You're looking at about 3 Mortal wounds, 5-6 regular wounds, plus whatever the Archon does.

I'm also curious about the Court.

Does anyone use units of 3 Sslyth? Or are they just too expensive?

Also, has anyone had success with Medusae?

Personally I've only ever found one good use case for Court. If I've got a few points left over, maybe my Writ/Cunning Warlord gets a bodyguard?

But even that's rare, I use my other vanilla Archons to fill that role if I need to.

It is fun to have a venom full of archons. But I think having a few of the court would be pretty good as well. It seems like the medusae could be allright as supporting fire, but I do see your point about their range. It is extremely short.

Since the FAQ dropped, it seems like "Raiding Force" never comes into play. 1st, most organized events won't allow more than 3 detachments. 2nd, battalions are better than 3 patrols in both CP and number of units.

What do you all think needs to be done to make Raiding Force effective again since it's supposed to be unique to Drukhari?

Maybe instead of 3 patrols=4 command points, it could change it so that each patrol instead gives 3cp instead of the usual none. It will still ensure a place for battalions while giving patrols in Drukhari armies something unique. One issue I can forsee with this though is that in non-event play, someone could take advantage of spamming patrols. Maybe that can be corrected by making the final rule read as follows:

"Raiding Force- The first three patrols in a Drukhari army gives 3cp per patrol instead of the usual command bonus."

So is the consensus here that Drukhari are the strongest most op army ever in existence or is that just some folks being salty?

I don't play in a tournament setting at all, so cant really say anything about it, but at my lgs I play with and against Drukhari quite regularly and I've never thought "omg so op"

DE are strong, no doubt about it, but people are being far too salty.
The main issue is that DE require different tools to take down than other armies, and suddenly all those Lascannons are far less efficient.

I agree that they are strong, even very strong.

Might explain a bit since my meta has a lot of mixed weapons to counter most things without tailoring lists.

 Alexonian wrote:
So is the consensus here that Drukhari are the strongest most op army ever in existence or is that just some folks being salty?

They're a strong army, certainly, but I think we have very few units that can really be considered overpowered.

Mostly, it seems like people refusing to adapt. Lascannons and such are worse against our vehicles, sure. But stuff like Heavy Bolters and Autocannons are much better. The problem is that people just want to spam Lascannons and then get annoyed when they don't work well against us.


Also, it's entirely possible that many people are salty about not being able to steamroll us anymore.

 Alexonian wrote:
So is the consensus here that Drukhari are the strongest most op army ever in existence or is that just some folks being salty?

I don't play in a tournament setting at all, so cant really say anything about it, but at my lgs I play with and against Drukhari quite regularly and I've never thought "omg so op"

No, that's just nonsense as per usual on dakka. Drukhari are really strong, and Drukhari/CWE or Drukhari/Harlequins are maybe the strongest faction in the game right now. But there's easily another 5-8 factions competing for tournament wins, and there's no runaway dominant faction that's taking up all the placements at weekly GTs/Opens right now.

Venoms are a bit undercosted for sure with the addition of Kabal obsessions. Coming from Index we needed either a major boost to splinter fire and its platforms, or a big cost reduction. We got both. Other than that? No major issues. Maybe make Dissies the same cost as Lances and then limit Agents of Vect to once per player turn.

It's just typical internet crying. Their netlist armies don't work, so during the meta adjustment period, there's a ton of bitching. That's just how it goes.

 Chippen wrote:
Venoms are a bit undercosted for sure with the addition of Kabal obsessions. Coming from Index we needed either a major boost to splinter fire and its platforms, or a big cost reduction. We got both. Other than that? No major issues. Maybe make Dissies the same cost as Lances and then limit Agents of Vect to once per player turn.

Really? Even with Obsessions, the Venom seems absolutely pathetic in terms of firepower.

Flayed Skull makes splinter about equal to bolters on Toughness 3, slightly better on T 4, and T5+ non vehicle it just gets better.

But that's me trying to remember analysis from when the obsessions were first put our on the community site. Could be off so feel free to run the comparison again.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Chippen wrote:
Venoms are a bit undercosted for sure with the addition of Kabal obsessions. Coming from Index we needed either a major boost to splinter fire and its platforms, or a big cost reduction. We got both. Other than that? No major issues. Maybe make Dissies the same cost as Lances and then limit Agents of Vect to once per player turn.

Really? Even with Obsessions, the Venom seems absolutely pathetic in terms of firepower.

This ^, Venoms do almost no damage


And no Flayed Skull doesnt make them a bolter, they still always wounds on 4+, just b.c you can re-roll 1 doesnt make them a bolter, a bolter is S4, wounds on 3+ vs T3 and also can re-roll just like we can with auras, they also can hurt vehicles on a 5+ rather than a 6+.

Venoms are strong b.c they can get objectives and move fast/charge to tie up units.

I said pretty close. 1 Splinter shot rerolling 1s is .26 wounds on GEQ, Bolter is .30. For 50 shots just for a bigger picture comparison, 50 Splinter shots rerolling 1s will do 12.96 wounds on GEQ, while 50 bolter shots will do 14.81. Pretty close when before the Codex when Splinter was both overcosted for the damage we did against infantry as well as underpowered.

With obsessions splinter is better than Bolters against T4 infantry.

I should have specified anti-infantry, that's where I was coming from with previous comment.

 Chippen wrote:
I said pretty close. 1 Splinter shot rerolling 1s is .26 wounds on GEQ, Bolter is .30. For 50 shots just for a bigger picture comparison, 50 Splinter shots rerolling 1s will do 12.96 wounds on GEQ, while 50 bolter shots will do 14.81. Pretty close when before the Codex when Splinter was both overcosted for the damage we did against infantry as well as underpowered.

With obsessions splinter is better than Bolters against T4 infantry.

And worse against T3 Infantry and vehicles with less than 8 Toughness.


Here's the thing, though, we're not talking about weapons on infantry - we're talking about weapons on vehicles. And a vehicle that is supposed to be a gunboat as much as a transport. Do you think Space Marines would still want to take Razorbacks if the only available weapons were Hurricane Bolters?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

 Chippen wrote:
I said pretty close. 1 Splinter shot rerolling 1s is .26 wounds on GEQ, Bolter is .30. For 50 shots just for a bigger picture comparison, 50 Splinter shots rerolling 1s will do 12.96 wounds on GEQ, while 50 bolter shots will do 14.81. Pretty close when before the Codex when Splinter was both overcosted for the damage we did against infantry as well as underpowered.

With obsessions splinter is better than Bolters against T4 infantry.

And worse against T3 Infantry and vehicles with less than 8 Toughness.


Here's the thing, though, we're not talking about weapons on infantry - we're talking about weapons on vehicles. And a vehicle that is supposed to be a gunboat as much as a transport. Do you think Space Marines would still want to take Razorbacks if the only available weapons were Hurricane Bolters?

I don't think you can really ignore that Venoms are ferrying infantry, that's kind of the point of the model. People aren't generally running around with lots of empty Venoms.

I feel like i need more melee units but i also am planning on switching out the scourge for massive spams of kabalite warriors with half using shredders and half with blasters (mostly due to what i can field) and then giving them all dark lances as the heavy weapon option.

As far as melee goes i'm probably gonna add more reavers to my collection. Ugh i just wish 40k didn't cost so much money. It's hard to scrounge up enough cash to buy what i need esp. to keep up with an ever evolving meta.

meleti wrote:
I don't think you can really ignore that Venoms are ferrying infantry, that's kind of the point of the model. People aren't generally running around with lots of empty Venoms.

I explicitly took its transport status into consideration. Hence why I compared it to another transport.


If you want an even closer comparison, how about Starweavers? They cost about 25-35pts more (depending on whether you count the Venom's extra Splinter Cannon, which would make for a closer comparison), but for that you get a better invulnerable save, better transport capacity (which is huge as it means you can put a character with a 5-man squad), better mobility, and vastly superior guns.

I'd be absolutely fine with Venoms going up to 99pts if it meant them having a 4++ save, automatic 6" Advance, 2 Shuriken Cannons (in place of their splinter weapons), and 6 capacity.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

meleti wrote:
I don't think you can really ignore that Venoms are ferrying infantry, that's kind of the point of the model. People aren't generally running around with lots of empty Venoms.

I explicitly took its transport status into consideration. Hence why I compared it to another transport.


If you want an even closer comparison, how about Starweavers? They cost about 25-35pts more (depending on whether you count the Venom's extra Splinter Cannon, which would make for a closer comparison), but for that you get a better invulnerable save, better transport capacity (which is huge as it means you can put a character with a 5-man squad), better mobility, and vastly superior guns.

I'd be absolutely fine with Venoms going up to 99pts if it meant them having a 4++ save, automatic 6" Advance, 2 Shuriken Cannons (in place of their splinter weapons), and 6 capacity.

What I mean is that you have to factor in the infantry guns because that's a big part of what the Venom does as an open-topped vehicle. In a lot of ways a barebones Venom is a ~95 point model with 7 splinter rifles and a splinter cannon. These guns are dakka instead of tank hunters, but it's not a negligible amount of firepower for its durability, speed, and cost.

I agree that Starweavers are indeed very similar to Venoms/Raiders. A bit less shooty and more assaulty, but that's Harlequins.

Razorbacks, though, are something else entirely. The squad isn't nearly as important to what they bring.

Just had a game playing mostly wych cults and found out how insane Leilith is at character killing. She killed a primaris chaplain in one turn, followed by killing a T5 buffed Primaris captain the turn after, both from full health.