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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Hi guys,

Quick question - if I have a Rubric Squad with an icon and a soulreaper cannon then I should put both of them on the same model, right? Is there any reason not to?

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Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Yes and no apart from who knows does 10th ed screw it.

Just don't put on sorcerer. That's illegal

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





That's what I thought. Thank you!

8930 points 6800 points 75 points 600 points
2810 points 4090 points 2650 points 3275 points
55 points 640 points 1840 points 435 points
2990 points 700 points 2235 points 1935 points
3460 points 1595 points 2480 points 2895 points
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





I am currently trying to put together a basic Thousand Sons list but I am noticing a distinct lack of anti-tank options. Am I supposed to use Predators? It feels like those haven't been good in other armies for a long time now

8930 points 6800 points 75 points 600 points
2810 points 4090 points 2650 points 3275 points
55 points 640 points 1840 points 435 points
2990 points 700 points 2235 points 1935 points
3460 points 1595 points 2480 points 2895 points
 
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

 Bilge Rat wrote:
I am currently trying to put together a basic Thousand Sons list but I am noticing a distinct lack of anti-tank options. Am I supposed to use Predators? It feels like those haven't been good in other armies for a long time now


yhea, anti-tank is a classic problem for Tsons. The "default" answer is mortal wound spam and accept that armour is something of a bugbear for us.

that said, we have no idea how things are going to change in the new edition. Armoured vehicles are getting something of a glow-up, and psyker powers are getting major changes which radically alter our existing paradigm. I might hold off a little, at least until our faction focus article is released and we have half a clue how we operate in this new edition.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch





UK

I use a Land Raider and also find the Scarabs can be quite effective in melee...

[1,800] Chaos Knights | [1,250] Thousand Sons | [1,000] Grey Knights | 40K editions: RT, 8, 9, 10 | https://www.flickr.com/photos/dreadblade/  
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Wait and see for 10th edition, but be aware of the structural issues of the army and how GW rules writing compounds this for anit-tank.

TSons exclusive units - Wizards, Rubrics, Scarabs, Goats, Goats on Surfboards, Vortex Beasts.

None of these have historically had much good anti-tank.

Units shared with loyalist and heretic Space Marines - Dreadnoughts, Predator chasis, Land Raider chasis, FW-tank chasis, daemon engines.

In 9th there wasn't really a good anti-tank option in this list, even for CSM/DG/loyalists. The loyalists used their unique dreads and vehicles, while CSM/DG had the same anti-tank issue (somewhat fixed with their own unique units but not quite).

So, for 10th we need the shared units to be decent.

But we also need the unique "free rules" (army rule / detachment rule) to be good for TSons or for GW to use a different points setting method. What is this issue?

Well, lets look at a Defiler in 9th. 175 points in TSons, 175 points in DG, 175 points in CSM.

In Tsons it gets 0 special rules, no army wide rule, no chapter tactic.
In DG it gets a special rule, -1T when it gets close.
In CSM it gets all the rules. So a Black Legion Defiler is getting exploding 6s with Heavy turn 1, exploding 6s with melee turn 3,4 & 5, extra hits with its flamers all turns, and is also getting +1 to hit in most circumstances.

These three defilers shouldn't cost the same.

Similar example where TSons were favoured somewhat but the problem was the unit was garbage in 9th. A Predator in 9th. 115 points in DG. 115 points in TSons. 115 points in Iron Hands.

In DG it gets two bad special rules, when you drive your anti-tank unit close to the enemy, give them -1T and ignore the heavy penalty for shooting in combat.
In TS it gets a good special rule, a 5++, wee!
In Iron Hands it gets all the rules. Permanent dev doc gives rr 1s to hit on its heavy weapons, +1AP on its heavy weapons, then the chapter tactic gives 6+++ and a better degrading profile.

These three Predators shouldn't cost the same.

So, one of the early things in 10th I will do is look at a few shared units between the space marine factions and check their points to see if GW are still doing this.

If they are, then I will compare the TSons free rules to the other factions to work out which shared TSons units will be undercosted and which will be overcosted.

Then I will look at the TSons unique units and the TSons undercosted shared units as the base line for army building (and check for anti-tank as well as other basic building blocks of a functional army). Maybe an overcosted shared unit will be worth adding but history suggests not.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Thanks all for such detailed answers. Hopefully they improve Predators somehow!

I think the solution for now is to order to my terminators to punch stuff until 10th arrives

8930 points 6800 points 75 points 600 points
2810 points 4090 points 2650 points 3275 points
55 points 640 points 1840 points 435 points
2990 points 700 points 2235 points 1935 points
3460 points 1595 points 2480 points 2895 points
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




T sons look good
   
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Italy

 Bilge Rat wrote:
Thanks all for such detailed answers. Hopefully they improve Predators somehow!

I think the solution for now is to order to my terminators to punch stuff until 10th arrives


Can't go wrong with now Rubrics or Termites. Given the faction preview the more cabal points the better
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





I really like our 10th edition rules. We basically keep old school psychic powers. And all the powers are good. The only down side, I think a few have mentioned this, is that you really need to lean hard into characters, Rubrics, and SoT. So there is very little incentive to play with Tgors or vehicles.
I mean you are going to want to throw out a doombolt every turn for 7 Cabal. Then if you want to remove armor it is another 9 (if no Ahriman or he already used his ability) so to do that each turn would be 15 cabal. My current list would generate 16. Probably not realistic for each turn, so we will probably have to pick between the two best each turn. (which is actually a good thing for the game). Also for some of the defensive stuff, like the strat ability, you need to use it at the start of the phase, not when the unit is targeted. That makes it a bit trickier to use.

I also really hope one of the characters or SoT get a psychic shooting that is an anti-tank type shot, like the old bolt of change from the 3rd edition book. We still are probably going to struggle with anti-tank (the new mutalith not withstanding) especially now that you really want to double down on characters, Rubrics, and SoT, not vehicles.


With GKs moving toward deepstrike movement being their faction ability, we are definitely on top of the psychic armies.
   
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I do worry that the army will just fall apart in practice. We need Rubrics to be able to protect characters, and Rubrics are not particularly durable anymore with their rules leaning heavily towards offense. Hopefully the Lone Operative on disc HQ's is generous.
   
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Italy

I suspect All is Dust will be a useful stratagem, the question will be if it's applied to a single unit for perhaps 1 CP, or if it affects all Rubrics for a phase for several CP.

While I'd prefer it be on the datasheet, at the least it will let Psyker heavy armies have a way to make us choose between using that or our Psychic Dominion strat. All speculation fo course.

Also the 5++ Invul on our troops helps, just need to see what the points wind up being.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/27 13:40:52


 
   
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 Arachnofiend wrote:
I do worry that the army will just fall apart in practice. We need Rubrics to be able to protect characters, and Rubrics are not particularly durable anymore with their rules leaning heavily towards offense. Hopefully the Lone Operative on disc HQ's is generous.


I had the same thought, but let’s wait on that. We don’t know (for example) if there’s some rule or strat that makes objectives we control generate Cabal points.
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut






Units in transports will generate Cabal Points?
TS Characters will be able to joint pink horrors (allies) units?
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





No-one knows for sure.

For 2nd super unlikely though. Characters can only join specified units. Don't see putting allied unit to lis in hero datasheet.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




 Xyxel wrote:
Units in transports will generate Cabal Points?

They will need a specific rule we haven't yet seen.

As will deepstrike/reserves units.

Also, if they don't have a specific rule, the timing now will be:
Command Phase generate Cabal Points.
Movement Phase climb out of transport or arrive on battlefield.

For attaching, my theory is:

Rubrics will take:
Ahriman on Foot
Exalted on Foot
Sorcer in Power Armour
Infernal Master

Scarabs will take:
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour

Enlightened will take:
Shaman

Lone operative but with a condition (probably have to be within 3" of INFANTRY):
Ahriman on Disc
Exalted on Disc
Daemon Prince (edited this in as I forgot them)

Based on this, you would think the "new unit" TS get for the edition might be a second Terminator Armour character.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/29 21:14:34


 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





EightFoldPath wrote:
 Xyxel wrote:
Units in transports will generate Cabal Points?

They will need a specific rule we haven't yet seen.

As will deepstrike/reserves units.

Also, if they don't have a specific rule, the timing now will be:
Command Phase generate Cabal Points.
Movement Phase climb out of transport or arrive on battlefield.

For attaching, my theory is:

Rubrics will take:
Ahriman on Foot
Exalted on Foot
Sorcer in Power Armour
Infernal Master

Scarabs will take:
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour

Enlightened will take:
Shaman

Lone operative but with a condition (probably have to be within 3" of INFANTRY):
Ahriman on Disc
Exalted on Disc
Daemon Prince (edited this in as I forgot them)

Based on this, you would think the "new unit" TS get for the edition might be a second Terminator Armour character.


I hope that they will generate the Cabal points in a transport. Right now the wording we have is "that is on the battlefield". So that is kind of dependent if being in a transport counts as being "on the battlefield" which I am not sure if we know yea or nay on that yet. If they don't that will really hurt taking rhinos as they will probably not generate Cabal points themselves, and units in them will not either. Obviously that would really incentivize using all or mostly infantry lists, which is already going to be the push due to the fact that vehicles likely won't do anything for the Cabals.

Personally I think we are very likely to get an exhaled sorcerer in terminator armor as the one model that we will get with our codex, like two years from now. They really do need to give us a few more options like a kit with some Rubrics on discs maybe, the robots from 30k only demonized, some of the Tzeentch daemon engines that tangentially exist in the fluff. We probably need like 2 or three more options.

On another note, I have been thinking about the loss of "all is dust" and I don't think it is going to be as big a deal. We kept our 5++ which is huge, and "all is dust" really only was protection against small arms fire as it only worked on D1. Well the vast majority of small arms lost a pip of ap, there doesn't seem to be nearly the level of ap enhancement for small arms that was in 9th i.e. doctrines, and cover saves will be extremely easy to get. Now I know the cover can't take us to 2+, so that is a loss, but as long as the points are ok (we are currently 3 points more than a CSM Legionary for Rubrics) I think that trade off might work out for us, (points reduction v. all is dust). I think the only ap enhancement we have seen so far is the icon of flame and being on a tall building. Now of course if the points are out of wack then the loss is going to be felt more, but points costs have been incredibly important in 40k since the beginning making or breaking units.

I also don't think I would take any allies, as the Tzeentch daemons won't generate Cabal points, unless their data sheets are just fire.


   
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Those occult blade guys from 30k on discs would be pretty sweet.

 
   
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Italy

I'm not familiar with those but a fast melee marine option would be nice for modern day 1k Sons
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut






Thousand Sons did not specialise in close combat. Why you want mele options for TS marines?
Tzaangors and Scarab Terminators were ok combat units. Maybe Maulerfiends and Defilers if including daemon-engines will be bearable with TS faction focus.
   
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Holy crap, Black Templars are going to be a scary match-up for us with that "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch" vow.
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

yes, but do take not that Rubrics are not psychic, only the sorcerer leading them is. I would assume the same is true for Scarabs.

the templars will be able to chew through our characters no problem, but most of our units are units are not dropping like flies to then,

the 4++ vs psychic attacks will blunt us a lot, though. MWs form doombolt etc should bypass that, at least. Also, the Mutaliths warp vortex is not Psychic, so it thiers hope for us yet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/01 20:39:44


To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




My belief is that as long as the Aspiring Sorcerer is alive, the whole unit counts as a PSYKER unit.

You could pull the Aspiring Sorcerer as the first casualty but then you lose your Cabal Point generator.

There seems to be way too much Psyker defeating tech floating around the game (and it seems to be heavily concentrated in the Imperium).

Grey Knights are in an even worse position, with every model in the unit being a Psyker and more of their weapons being Psychic.

I was reading https://www.stat-check.com/blog/10th-will-be-a-mess-enjoy-it-anyway and I get the feeling TSons will be going on the shelf until the first points adjustment. We'll see, maybe they'll start out cheap?

Because this Psyker defeating tech will be fixable with points.

But it will mean that either having the Psyker keyword and Psychic on your attacks should make a unit cheaper.

Or they will have to make ANTI PSYKER 4+ or a 4++/4+++ vs Psychic units expensive enough you'll get beaten by a mirror match opponent who didn't use them.
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

EightFoldPath wrote:
My belief is that as long as the Aspiring Sorcerer is alive, the whole unit counts as a PSYKER unit.

You could pull the Aspiring Sorcerer as the first casualty but then you lose your Cabal Point generator.

There seems to be way too much Psyker defeating tech floating around the game (and it seems to be heavily concentrated in the Imperium).

Grey Knights are in an even worse position, with every model in the unit being a Psyker and more of their weapons being Psychic.

I was reading https://www.stat-check.com/blog/10th-will-be-a-mess-enjoy-it-anyway and I get the feeling TSons will be going on the shelf until the first points adjustment. We'll see, maybe they'll start out cheap?

Because this Psyker defeating tech will be fixable with points.

But it will mean that either having the Psyker keyword and Psychic on your attacks should make a unit cheaper.

Or they will have to make ANTI PSYKER 4+ or a 4++/4+++ vs Psychic units expensive enough you'll get beaten by a mirror match opponent who didn't use them.



ok, based on my reading of the leaked 10e rules, that doesnt seem to be the case.

the unit as a whole is not Psychic, only the sorcerer, so they would only gain that bonus when hes the only model they could target. the controlling player allocates wounds* anyway, so their no way to force it onto the sorcerer. By your logic, if I put a Liberian into a terminator squad, they would all get PSYHIC and be vulnerable.




I think the balence point for Psychic is going to be slightly undercosting the abilites, on the understanding that theirs plenty of extra defenses available against these attacks.

As with so much in 40K, it really comes down to point costs.

*except in case of PRECISION weapons, and even then they can't nominate the squad leader or heavy weapons guy, just any attached CHARACTER.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




xerxeskingofking wrote:
By your logic, if I put a Liberian into a terminator squad, they would all get PSYHIC and be vulnerable.

That is exactly what I think happens. But, I think there is enough confusion on this that it should be in an early FAQ.

For the Librarian + Terminators I think the combined unit gets Psyker and Character.

The only potential positive interaction I've seen so far is Abaddon + Terminators should get Abaddon's Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch keywords, making the four god boosted strategems in the index detachment all work on the one unit.
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





The soulgrinder looks great for AT for us. Vehicles don't generate Cabal Points anyway, and it is unlikely any vehicles will get benefit from the detachment bonus.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




There is a strange amount of psychic weaponry on non psyker Tzeentch daemons previewed today. So some hope for the detachment bonus to apply in strange places (like maybe the Enlightened Bows and Spears).
   
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

 xeen wrote:
The soulgrinder looks great for AT for us. Vehicles don't generate Cabal Points anyway, and it is unlikely any vehicles will get benefit from the detachment bonus.


Soulgrinders are chaos demon units. I
Know we can ally them in, but were you thinking of defilers?

That said, yes it does look good

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





EightFoldPath wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
By your logic, if I put a Liberian into a terminator squad, they would all get PSYHIC and be vulnerable.

That is exactly what I think happens. But, I think there is enough confusion on this that it should be in an early FAQ.

For the Librarian + Terminators I think the combined unit gets Psyker and Character.

The only potential positive interaction I've seen so far is Abaddon + Terminators should get Abaddon's Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch keywords, making the four god boosted strategems in the index detachment all work on the one unit.


We know already not all models in unit have to share keyword. Tson sorcerer is psyker. Rubrics he lead aren't.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
 
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