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No, iirc there are multiple books and authors where this new take began to rear up:

Shield of Baal: Shadow of the Leviathan (Josh Reynolds)
Wraithflight, Darkness in the Blood (Guy Haley)
Heart of Rage (James Swallow)

I thought Phil Kelly had also contributed something, but i may just be mistaking one of the injuries he did to the Tau

 Altruizine wrote:
No, iirc there are multiple books and authors where this new take began to rear up:

Shield of Baal: Shadow of the Leviathan (Josh Reynolds)
Wraithflight, Darkness in the Blood (Guy Haley)
Heart of Rage (James Swallow)

I thought Phil Kelly had also contributed something, but i may just be mistaking one of the injuries he did to the Tau

Need to check them then. Still it is BL not Codex (which on the hierarchy of canon still has a precedence).

 Altruizine wrote:
I thought Phil Kelly had also contributed something, but i may just be mistaking one of the injuries he did to the Tau

Let's be honest, Phil Kelly is more than welcome to continue doing damage to the Tau as and when he feels like it.

One thing to consider is that the Hive Mind having emotions and such could be taken as fact or it could be adapted very easily to simply how the human mind attempted to make sense of the hive mind in a way that it could comprehend. Ergo that the Hive Mind wasn't exactly a personality, but that those who interacted with it interpreted it as such at that moment in time.

We already have this with Warp Demons all the time.

So we know what, more or less, to expect from our Broodlor based on the Patriarch profile.

Including, no doubt, Epic Hero on Hive Tyrants...

 Overread wrote:
One thing to consider is that the Hive Mind having emotions and such could be taken as fact or it could be adapted very easily to simply how the human mind attempted to make sense of the hive mind in a way that it could comprehend. Ergo that the Hive Mind wasn't exactly a personality, but that those who interacted with it interpreted it as such at that moment in time.

We already have this with Warp Demons all the time.

The "Hive Mind has emotions" is/was part of a recent push to establish the Hive Mind as a God, with Devastation of Baal making the comparison that if human emotions are drops of water, the Hive Mind's emotions are oceans.

Similarly, Wraithflight also describes the Hive Mind as a massive multi-dimensional being "brighter than any sun" that could pretty much beat up Slaanesh (or at least the Eldar protagonist believes so).

So not quite the Necron's retcon into people.

In a way I think its a move to try and reinforce the idea that the Hive Mind works in the established Chaos Realm mechanics. Which is also something we've seen steadily pushed and at the very least helps reinforce how the Shadow in the Warp works and why Tyranids are dangerous to both living and warp beings.

In many ways we can also have Tyranids change a lot without any ret-con to their lore; just changes in behaviour and interpretation of that behaviour.

IS that "Brighter than any Sun" a sign of emotion or what that Eldar saw as emotion at that time, but is sort of emotion but isn't because its alien.



Heck we don't even really know the purpose of the planetsized structure they built (I really kinda hope we get some development on that soon)

 xttz wrote:

The opening animation to this edition is literally all about the Imperium repeatedly losing world after world to the Tyranids. Then they evacuate defenders from a bunch more worlds in order to barely stop one tendril and that's 'winning every battle'?

It was mostly a reference to:

Tsagualsa wrote:


- The Imperials won engagement after engagement against the Tyranids in both space and planetside. However, each battle depleted the Imperial forces

And in general where Tyranid accomplishments are downplayed, especially where the Imperium is concerned. Sure, it can be said that Tyranids are bad, they consume world after world, but their most destructive accomplishments are either ret-conned to be less impactful as the editions go on or relegated to bare footnotes. There's not even references on the strain of so many refugees or the loss of industrial or agricultural capacity, or even how much of a strain on available shipping there is to move around such vast populations.

 xttz wrote:

What specific impact do you expect Tyranids to have on the larger narrative, keeping in mind that:
a) they're never going to kill off any mortal named characters unless GW decide to discontinue the model (rip yarrick), and
b) they're not going to wipe out the Blood Angels, Ultramaines, or any other established group people actively buy models for

Something, anything, that can keep being brought up as either something important to the narrative or at least narratively interesting. Tyranids feel disconnected from the rest of the 40k narrative. If GW decided to retcon the entire race out of existence, it feels like the only important piece that would need to be smoothed over is Iyanden, since them getting ravaged by Kraken is a core piece of their lore that differentiates them from other Craftworlds.

A good example would be when Leviathan ate Gryphonne IV. One of the largest forge worlds in the Galaxy, its own Titan Legion, tons of resources to draw upon for its defense, and it was overwhelmed...and is basically a foot note. No books, mentioned in a paragraph in one, maybe two, codices, no impact in the larger narrative when it should have been.

What I would like would be for the Hive Fleets to show some cunning and strategic thinking beyond show up, throw bodies at the problem. Have them lay traps, trick enemies into over-extending, have defenders burn resources defending worlds the Tyranids know they can conquer but are purposely delaying any crushing victories to bleed them dry.

So here's a situation that would still fit in with Tsagualsa's post that would be more interesting:

A single tendril of Leviathan is detected, and the Lords of Terra don't react until worlds start falling hard, so they're bullied into a half hearted attempt to stop the tendril while they muster their forces--the Solblade Fleets, commanded by a fairly incompetent tosser who'd been relegated to command in this portion of the galaxy because his lack of tactical ability would hurt the actual battle fleets but him being too well connected means he can't just be completely gotten rid of. Lo' and behold, the Solblades work better than expected--destroying or driving off several invasions, to the point where the Lords of Terra are reconsidering the amount of forces needing to be deployed and delay sending reinforcements. The Solblades become victims of their own success, starting to be bled by the constant conflict, but they see a chance to shatter the tendril. Abandoning the conflict on several worlds, including the forces on their surface (bonus points if it includes the Lamentors), the majority of the Solblades race to a system to meet the remaining bulk of the tendril...only to be ambushed by the *two* other tendrils. The Solblades are shattered, the Imperium is off balance and out of position, the Hive Fleets are shown that they'll sacrifice hundreds of ships and billions of bioforms and even potentially conquerable planets to meet their objectives, there's infighting over the abandonment of forces (especially the Space Marines), and the threat is significantly stronger than was anticipated.

Would this scenario change the set up from the lore post? Not really, we still get the same set up, but we have all the classics checked: an implacable foe, the Imperium being stretched thin but at the same time being its worst enemy, butting heads, an enemy that has been shown to be both cunning and understand its foe to some extent.

 xttz wrote:

Even the best case scenario is that we destroy some major location like Cadia. But then GW still wants to sell Cadian models, so Cadian guardsmen are just recruited elsewhere and the narrative continues.

I'd take a Cadia-moment at this point. At least it's something that keeps coming up. And lore wise, it does make sense, since Cadian pattern equipment and regiments are all over the place, even before Cadia was blown to smithereens. It was also a defining, Galaxy-wide event, which also culminated in the creation of Cicatrix Maledictum which had the bonus of ending the Tyranid siege on Baal--Tyranids just can't ever get anything nice.

When someone around the table or within the setting says to remember Cadia, Cadia stands, etc., you know exactly what they mean. If someone says the same about Baal or Maccragge or...gosh, I can't even remember where the Imperium destroyed the second Kraken tendril, it doesn't have the same effect (assuming you don't get a blank stare back).

 xttz wrote:

The same situation just happened to the Imperium though. Their 'super-unit' Primarch returned, "killed" his brother to no effect because Angron always comes back, then still failed to prevent Chaos from achieving their main objective.

It's the nature of a setting like this where everyone has to lose battles. At a certain point Tyranids kinda... have to be stopped, or there's no more setting. The same applies to every other faction.

I agree that the whole AoO was poorly presented and narratively neutral, even if it was just an excuse to reintroduce some new primarchs and new models, but at the very least, all the participants (apart from Vashtorr) have already established lore they can fall back on.

And say what you will, at least both Primarchs had their day in the sun. Angron got to wipe out an entire fleet. Lion got to beat the stuffing out of Angron. Each side got their cool moments--the Imperium got to beat on Angron and Vashtorr, and Chaos got to "win" sorta.

Tyranids rarely get that, and even then, it generally gets ret-conned to being pointless, but unlike AoO, that tends to be the entirely of their impact in the setting. They show up, there's a lot of them, and just when it looks like the defenders might be overwhelmed, someone pulls out something ridiculous out of their ass to end the conflict.

I mean, Tyranids won Octarius. That was a big conflict that stretched for 4 editions and that included Orks, the IoM, Eldar to a lesser extent and even Chaos, and Tyranids canonically won that.

Check the CP battle report here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKqmf36YDds
Some nice info about our stats, weapons etc. Psychophage especially is interesting with its 10 Wounds, torrent ranged attack, and feeding frenzy cc.

Am I too late to say that the Patriarch feels like a bit of a Miner Character? 😜

 Souleater wrote:
Am I too late to say that the Patriarch feels like a bit of a Miner Character? 😜

Get. The. F***. Out.

After many weapons profiles rolled into only few options, which happened for Deathwatch for example, what do you think could be done to ours choices? Termagants sheet shows all 3 ranged weapons available for the old plastics still there. So theoretically where are 2-3 choices they could be safe but more could mean some kind of reductions in weapon profiles. For example, I could see all Raveners thorax weapons to receive similar treatment like combi weapons.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
After many weapons profiles rolled into only few options, which happened for Deathwatch for example, what do you think could be done to ours choices?

Say goodbye to Carnifexes with loads of options...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
After many weapons profiles rolled into only few options, which happened for Deathwatch for example, what do you think could be done to ours choices?

Say goodbye to Carnifexes with loads of options...

I could see something like Carnifex Claws and Carnifex Cannons being the only options.

While not impossible, I'm mostly doubtful. Most of the Carnifex options have well defined roles: heavy venom cannon for ranged AT, devourers for anti light infantry, stranglethorn for mid infantry, scything talons as anti-heavy infantry and crushing claws as melee AT.

The only real head-scratcher are the head options that aren't extended senses and the deathspitters that I don't believe have ever been a well defined option.

 Tyran wrote:
and the deathspitters that I don't believe have ever been a well defined option.

Once upon the time it was a single shot blast template weapon so different than Devourer which was many shots and without a template. Now when Blast is a rule we could have those differences back.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
and the deathspitters that I don't believe have ever been a well defined option.

Once upon the time it was a single shot blast template weapon so different than Devourer which was many shots and without a template. Now when Blast is a rule we could have those differences back.

And even in that once upon a time, it was blatantly outclassed by the stranglethorn because twin-linked S7 small blast couldn't compete with a large S8 blast.

And to be blunt, small blast were crap weapons unless you had a lot of them and with barrage.

 Tyran wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
and the deathspitters that I don't believe have ever been a well defined option.

Once upon the time it was a single shot blast template weapon so different than Devourer which was many shots and without a template. Now when Blast is a rule we could have those differences back.

And even in that once upon a time, it was blatantly outclassed by the stranglethorn because twin-linked S7 small blast couldn't compete with a large S8 blast.

And to be blunt, small blast were crap weapons unless you had a lot of them and with barrage.

Implementation of rules is a different matter. GW could do them right this time. At least with Warriors, it could make some nice choices = you choose Deathspitter to have fewer, stronger shots with a Blast rule or Devourer with many but weaker shots.

But we aren't talking warriors but carnifexes.

Moreover blast isn't going to come back for many reasons so I don't see the point in debating them within this thread and within the context of 10th.

As for carnifex deathspitters, sure maybe GW will do them right this time.

 Tyran wrote:
But we aren't talking warriors but carnifexes.

Moreover blast isn't going to come back for many reasons so I don't see the point in debating them within this thread and within the context of 10th.

As for carnifex deathspitters, sure maybe GW will do them right this time.

Yeah, we were talking Carnifexes but I gave a general proposal for Deathspitters based on Warrior options. Maybe a litlle of-topic though As to Blast it is a weapon rule in 10th. To quote the leaked core rules:
"BLAST
High-explosives can fell several warriors in a single
blast, but firing them where your comrades will get
caught in the ensuing detonation is simply unwise.
Weapons with [BLAST] in their profile are known as
Blast weapons, and they make a random number of
attacks. Each time you determine how many attacks
are made with a Blast weapon, add 1 to the result for
every five models that were in the target unit when
you selected it as the target (rounding down). Blast
weapons can never be used to make attacks against a
unit that is within Engagement Range of one or more
units from the attacking model's army (including its
own unit).
Example: If a weapon with the [BLAST) ability and
an Attacks characteristic of 2D6 targets a unit that
contains 11 models, and the roll to determine how
many attacks are made is a 9, ·a total of 11 attacks
would be made against that unit.''

 Tyran wrote:
As for carnifex deathspitters, sure maybe GW will do them right this time.

*Looks at Deathwatch sheet*

Not likely.

Unless GW remakes the core Carnifex kit with less weapons, I can't see it losing weapons. I could see its weapon profiles being less diverse within themselves. So less of a spread of variation between them.

Partly because if you want a big artillery unit you take an exoctine etc.... Ergo the big specialists the Tyranid army now has.

Which might be a good thing in some ways; giving the Carnifex perhaps a less diverse role, but a more defined niche within the Tyrnaid army.

 Overread wrote:
Unless GW remakes the core Carnifex kit with less weapons, I can't see it losing weapons.

Have you seen the Deathwatch sheet? Did you see how many weapons they amalgamated?

Tabletop Tactics posted this:
40k 10th Edition Interview with Games Workshop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCbq4vnyno4

At 4:20, Stu starts talking about detachments in the tyranid codex, specifically 'Monster mash' and 'Vanguard/Infiltrators'

He goes on to stress detachments as 'archetypes' over 'subfactions'. (So a wind-rider host rather than Samhainn army).

 Overread wrote:
Unless GW remakes the core Carnifex kit with less weapons, I can't see it losing weapons. I could see its weapon profiles being less diverse within themselves. So less of a spread of variation between them.

Remember when GW produced a Hive Tyrant kit that was compatible with other kits in the Tyranid range? And for like, 4 editions this was shown off happily - carnifex weapons, using Tervigon/T-fex weapons, using Broodlord arms etc. etc.... and then 9th hit and the Hive Tyrant was stripped to the absolute barebones of its kit...

Yet unlike the Autarch which got a revised datasheet cause 'it was promoted as cross-compatible!' the Hive Tyrant never did. Despite having been promoted as cross-compatible for multiple editions....

Psychophage article https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/02/the-psychophage-will-eat-your-brain-and-then-the-rest-of-you/

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Psychophage article https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/02/the-psychophage-will-eat-your-brain-and-then-the-rest-of-you/

Some cool rules here. I'm a little perplexed at why a big beastie like this would only hit at S6 though.

Hierophant