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Mess? MESS? Look, you peasant, Wave Two is very nearly almost possibly about to certainly, possibly have quotes considered at some point.

Now, call up your Lord and Savior, Kevin Siembieda, and tell him you're sorry you ever doubted him.

Really, one more suggestion like this, and we might just need to cancel Wave Two because you don't DESERVE it!

Oh, and no refunds.

The real issue at the end of the day is that the actual game system for Robotech RPG Tactics is not really all that great. And if PB would actually put some work in they could have been working with the players to refine it and release a solid 2.0 ruleset that *might* just revive the game a bit.

Yeah all of us are pissed at the Wave 2 fiasco but lets be honest here there are many game companies out there that are or were successful while treating their customers like crap. The difference is that their games were actually good so people tolerated the company who made the game.

The only way I *ever* see us getting Wave 2 would be is the game picked up a bit and actually began selling again so that PB would have some incentive to expand the game a bit and thus make the Wave 2 models. But since they seem utterly uninterested in trying to do any kind of 2.0 ruleset that will likely never happen.

I'm just waiting until 2021 and hoping that every company that has ever been involved in the US licensing of Robotech loses their rights to it because it has been treated like gak for over 20 years now.

The rules are not keeping people from buying the game, it is the near certainty that nothing further is coming*. Nobody wants to invest in an unfinished line of IP related miniatures.

*I almost wrote "uncertainty of future releases", but who would I be kidding at this point?

That building is huge... Lots of boxes and that cannot be cheap.. And they moved to that local well before the RRT. It boggles the mind.

I'm confident that the pallets of RRT in that photo are all the pallets in the warehouse. I don't think there are more lurking out of frame. Not because I have a positive opinion of Kevin's business acumen... quite the opposite. I'm sure the rest of the warehouse is chock full of pallets of unsold overstocked product. I just think the pallets are all of Rifts and Robotech RPG books he printed way too many copies of. I'm sure if one were to look hard enough, one could find an entire unopened pallet of Revised Recon books from back in 1986 in that place.

 n815e wrote:
The rules are not keeping people from buying the game, it is the near certainty that nothing further is coming*. Nobody wants to invest in an unfinished line of IP related miniatures.

*I almost wrote "uncertainty of future releases", but who would I be kidding at this point?

It's the rules and models. Because if people buy it more will come. The rules are pants and the models due to the ridiculous design decisions difficult to put together. There would be future releases if people suddenly started buying the current releases for Robotech RPG Tactics but with a poor rule set and models that require a magnifying glass and tweezers to assemble that won't likely happen. I will argue though that a good rule set will make people buy models that are difficult to assemble, there have been a couple of examples of that in recent years.

 vonjankmon wrote:
The real issue at the end of the day is that the actual game system for Robotech RPG Tactics is not really all that great. And if PB would actually put some work in they could have been working with the players to refine it and release a solid 2.0 ruleset that *might* just revive the game a bit.

A couple thoughts on this ... There is some debate on who actually wrote the rules. There is some rather interesting circumstantial evidence that says Ninja Division did all the grunt work and PB parachuted their vision of the rules in to make it what it is right now. Ninja Division had a vision of what this game was to be, and if you have followed the tales of the paragon of hubris that is Kevin Siembieda, it didn't comply with his vision and required him to re-write what he thought it to be. Expecting version 2.0 would only occur if another company buys the IP, which won't happen until after 2021. I doubt you, or anyone, is willing to hold their breath.

Yeah all of us are pissed at the Wave 2 fiasco but lets be honest here there are many game companies out there that are or were successful while treating their customers like crap. The difference is that their games were actually good so people tolerated the company who made the game.

This may be taken as trolling, but I am not meaning it to be so. I nominate this statement for the understatement of the decade. Bravo, Sir. I agree with what you are saying, but I have yet to run across a company that treats its customers like crap and are still in operation. I get experience, like mileage, may vary. But I hardly call PB a successful company. A company that breaks even is not successful, its a company that's doing the bare minimum to justify the space they occupy. PB could be a lot more if it weren't for the walking ego running it.

The only way I *ever* see us getting Wave 2 would be is the game picked up a bit and actually began selling again so that PB would have some incentive to expand the game a bit and thus make the Wave 2 models. But since they seem utterly uninterested in trying to do any kind of 2.0 ruleset that will likely never happen.

A the vicious circle that is a miniature game company. If you want it to sell, you have to produce the figures in order for it to sell. Again, there is very damning circumstantial evidence that everything was in place and ready to go. However PB parachuted in and made some really bad decisions contrary to advice given to them from Ninja Division. PB did not listen and they made rather bad decisions. The fact they have been sitting on getting Wave 2 manufactured and released for so long is the very reason why this game is dead in the first place. Word of mouth is just as potent. Had PB not treated Ninja Division like dirt (likely case) we'd see a 2.0 Ruleset. But again, we're dealing with the fragile hubris and raging ego that is Kevin "I AM PALLADIUM" Siembieda.

I'm just waiting until 2021 and hoping that every company that has ever been involved in the US licensing of Robotech loses their rights to it because it has been treated like gak for over 20 years now.

If I understand the case that has made the rounds correctly, the real question is whether Tatsunoko will be willing to renew the American distribution license with Harmony Gold after the recent case. I'd like to think that Tatsunoko will not renew as Harmony Gold has done everything under their power to stifle distribution Macross in the US. What I am waiting to see is if Harmony Gold has the stones to sue Sony over the languishing Robotech movie that seems to go in and out of development hell in Hollywood. At that point it will become a game of who has the better lawyer, and that would be on Sony.

Hasn't it been blatantly stated before the ND wrote the rules, and then PB basically threw it "all" out and "redid it from scratch"?

Redone by the fantastic Mr. Carmen?

Yeah, I remember a Beasts of War podcast where Carmen essentially called the initial rules "a dumpster fire" and was pulled in to fix them. Seeing his gRifts "demo", I no longer believe that for a second. *I* could write better rules, and I suck at rules design.

As to @vonjankmon's comments, I believe in most cases that customers don't have to deal with the manufacturer - a product is presented any you have the option to buy it or leave it. If it's a bad product, you don't get repeat business. If it's good, people will look for future product, but they aren't bound to the manufacturer if nothing further manifests. Unfortunately in our case, we pre-bought this stuff so it's not so easy to walk away from the investment (or at least, it's not for me). We're still waiting for the rest of never-to-be-produced product and we can't get the company to be arsed to admit defeat, even though it would be the moral thing to do because it'd put these morons out of business. And who in their right mind would hire them on somewhere else?

As far as rules and models go, I've mostly given up. A mix of Savage Worlds and X-Wing mash-up would be my go-to for a 2.0 version of the Robotech RPG, and flat-up X-Wing for a tabletop game.

I'm just waiting now for 2021 to roll around, hoping that HG (& PB) losing this license means I can get legal English dubbed versions of Macross Zero, Frontier and the other animes that we've been denied because of this IP farce.

Your comment about those companies not being in business anymore is basically spot on Seawolf. GW is likely the only exception to that and they tend to correct after a while and treat their customers better once things start falling apart for them, they're just big enough to take that temporary hit while companies like Spartan are not. But many of those companies did enjoy success for a little while before the players just got sick of it, I think PB's problem in the case of Robotech is that they treated us like gak right out of the gate.

I very much doubt that Tatsunoko will renew HG's license, since the reason that we know it expires in 2021 was a result of legal documents released after Tatsunoko basically tried to sue HG into giving them more royalties. Tatsunoko lost that arbitration so I doubt the relationship between those two companies is good.

And I am dying for a legal english dub of Macross Frontier Stormonu. Macross Delta also, even though it was not as good as Frontier was.

Merijeek wrote:
Hasn't it been blatantly stated before the ND wrote the rules, and then PB basically threw it "all" out and "redid it from scratch"?

Redone by the fantastic Mr. Carmen?

There is a lot of assumptions on what is really going on with RRT, but with things like this its really sad, we all know there is a lot of truth to it.

How many times have we heard in the past of armature authors thought they would get their names in lights for writing a book for Palladium.
Only to find out that Kevin had rewrote the whole book in to his "own" words. Moving the once author to a supporting role or completely removing
the persons name from it.

The longer this goes on the more of nuggets of truth comes out because it\s impossible to keep everything well hidden.. Someone will
say something not realizing what they are actually saying. Thanks NMI

Where would the game be if they used everything that ND wanted.. We would have got simpler rules (simpler is sometimes better) Zombicide
type models, but we would have not had to deal with waiting on two waves. but this is a pipe dream now.. nothing is going to change it now.

Now we all know that Kevin is happy to have a life time stock of the game in his warehouse also happy to sale 200 copies of a book release.
But I live in a fly over state and just a ruff guess that we have around 40 game stores in my state alone. Multiply that times the number of states.

So we have at least 2000 possible retail outlets in the united states alone and they are not even in the 10% range of getting a single book in each store..
How do you expect to sale any kind of product if you can not convenience retailers to stock your products... Good Job Kevin..

I don't want to come off as completely bashing Palladium (though I will make an exception for Kevin Siembieda), because its likely there are decent people working there. However this has been a space opera of errors that compounds itself as it goes along.

Unfortunately Scott is now the subject of a great deal of wrath from the community. I don't think he deserves all of it, but he is continuing a party line that backers are no longer interested in hearing so he deserves to get a measure of the grief directed at Kevin.

Because of this Kickstarter I am extremely hesitant about backing anything out there of interest. I realize I shouldn't paint other companies with the same brush as I am with Palladium. However a Kickstarter should not be a means for a company to get 'free' financing while screwing their donors in the process.

Man, I can't believe you all are still talking about this.

 Genoside07 wrote:
[
So we have at least 2000 possible retail outlets in the united states alone and they are not even in the 10% range of getting a single book in each store..
How do you expect to sale any kind of product if you can not convenience retailers to stock your products... Good Job Kevin..

Yes, BUT, what you're forgetting is that Palladium Books makes more money on each book sold if it's sold directly by PB - and then they get to tack on some exorbitant shipping!

You just don't understand the genius of Kevin! Why sell a thousand books at a $15 profit each when you can sell 150 at $20 profit each!?!! There's a reason you don't own an RPG business that's the envy of its entire industry!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KTG17 wrote:
Man, I can't believe you all are still talking about this.

Why wouldn't we? We're reliably informed on a bi-weekly basis that this product is still coming. We're just excited about it!

Merijeek wrote:

KTG17 wrote:
Man, I can't believe you all are still talking about this.

Why wouldn't we? We're reliably informed on a bi-weekly basis that this product is still coming. We're just excited about it!

I know, right?

All kidding aside, it's actually harder to believe that someone thought that people wouldn't still be talking about this?

A LOT of people are still owed a LOT of stuff here, and we've got PB Scott telling everyone not to worry, it will be here soon-ish.

Scott even uses the PB "hope": 'hopefully we'll hear something', 'we hope to have this done', 'our hopes are that we'll have this', 'we hoped to have completed', 'here's to hoping you all go away', etc.

A nice way to get people to believe that they are onto something and will have information.

It fits in well with "soon".

 Alpharius wrote:

Merijeek wrote:

KTG17 wrote:
Man, I can't believe you all are still talking about this.

Why wouldn't we? We're reliably informed on a bi-weekly basis that this product is still coming. We're just excited about it!

I know, right?

All kidding aside, it's actually harder to believe that someone thought that people wouldn't still be talking about this?

A LOT of people are still owed a LOT of stuff here, and we've got PB Scott telling everyone not to worry, it will be here soon-ish.

Yea, I spent over $1000 on this KS and it actually stopped me from using KS for a LONG time because of their responses.

They still owe me well over $500 worth of my pledge money.

And I'm just one backer

With this many backers all being denied product, and this much salt in everyone's bloodstream about it, I'm wondering why there hasn't been a class action lawsuit directed at PB to get this mess settled? I mean, yeah, it totally isn't worth it for one or two people to sue PB, but a class action suit would band everyone together into a juggernaut of "Feth You Kevin Siembieda" that could almost certainly overrun whatever pro bono lawyer PB manages to scrape up to put in front of a judge.

I mean, I'm not a part of this KS. I only found out about it after the fact. So you can feel free to ignore my opinions/suggestions, since I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I think it is clear that the only way to get any actual action from PB on this is to hit them with legal action. True, there probably isn't any money to be won here (this is PB we're talking about) but a lawsuit would force Kevin to open the books in a court of law and the contents would be a matter of record. Everyone would know with absolute certainty what the status of RRT is, and Kevin couldn't excuse his way out of it.

Heck, a good lawyer may rope Harmony Gold in on the side of the plaintiffs, on the grounds that PB has done irreparable damage to the Robotech IP through their ham-fisted mismanagement of the license. That could result in some other company getting the Robotech license before it dies in 2021.

Seriously, if anybody knows a lawyer, they might want to ask about the viability of starting a class-action lawsuit.

I reached out to the Michigan AG, BBB and three firms that specialized in class-action suits. Despite the $1.4M associated with the KS, nobody was interested, sadly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and HG is enabling these crooks - they've been asked point blank about PB's shoddy handling and on-camera, they didn't care one whit, even believing PB was doing a great job.

KTG17 wrote:
Man, I can't believe you all are still talking about this.

My ire for someone basically "stealing" a few hundred bucks is not readily let go.
Yes, I am that petty.
I make myself feel better by convincing myself I am doing a public service of warning people off from them.
It is a little correct.

I find it all devolves into just not believing our society can allow this rather transparent "con" to continue or how on god's green earth these turkeys stay in business.

So, there you go.

squidhills wrote:
With this many backers all being denied product, and this much salt in everyone's bloodstream about it, I'm wondering why there hasn't been a class action lawsuit directed at PB to get this mess settled? I mean, yeah, it totally isn't worth it for one or two people to sue PB, but a class action suit would band everyone together into a juggernaut of "Feth You Kevin Siembieda" that could almost certainly overrun whatever pro bono lawyer PB manages to scrape up to put in front of a judge.

I mean, I'm not a part of this KS. I only found out about it after the fact. So you can feel free to ignore my opinions/suggestions, since I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I think it is clear that the only way to get any actual action from PB on this is to hit them with legal action. True, there probably isn't any money to be won here (this is PB we're talking about) but a lawsuit would force Kevin to open the books in a court of law and the contents would be a matter of record. Everyone would know with absolute certainty what the status of RRT is, and Kevin couldn't excuse his way out of it.

Heck, a good lawyer may rope Harmony Gold in on the side of the plaintiffs, on the grounds that PB has done irreparable damage to the Robotech IP through their ham-fisted mismanagement of the license. That could result in some other company getting the Robotech license before it dies in 2021.

Seriously, if anybody knows a lawyer, they might want to ask about the viability of starting a class-action lawsuit.

The problem with a class action suit is that I can't see that PB have the money to pay out on it. It'd mean whoever footed the bill for the backers would lose out massively. There's very much a 'don't throw good money after bad' factor in this not having happened.

 Stormonu wrote:
I reached out to the Michigan AG, BBB and three firms that specialized in class-action suits. Despite the $1.4M associated with the KS, nobody was interested, sadly.

Oh, and HG is enabling these crooks - they've been asked point blank about PB's shoddy handling and on-camera, they didn't care one whit, even believing PB was doing a great job.

Well, that explains that. I didn't realize attempts to put together a class action suit had already been made. I also didn't realize that HG had publicly backed PB. Thanks for responding to my post!

 Stormonu wrote:
I reached out to the Michigan AG, BBB and three firms that specialized in class-action suits. Despite the $1.4M associated with the KS, nobody was interested, sadly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and HG is enabling these crooks - they've been asked point blank about PB's shoddy handling and on-camera, they didn't care one whit, even believing PB was doing a great job.

I don't believe this at all... Like any of it... That's my nature (no offense). And it always gives me a evil chuckle when folks mention the BBB. Like what exactly do folks think is going to happen once you've contacted the BBB?

That said, If you did contact three firms... When? and what were the firms? It might be helpful to the folks organizing on Facebook to know that those parties won't be interested... In order to be serious about this people will have to put up money... Attorneys working pro-bono is the stuff of legends (or in the movies)... Also when did you contact? And how did you approach that contact...?

You offered to hire attorney's and/or sought a free consultation and they refused? I mean I haven't known any firm to refuse anything... (though they can be costly) Though many might be put it on the backburner... Outright refuse? Never. This is probably the biggest reason I don't believe you. Refusal and not being able to afford (or be willing to pay) attorneys is two entirely different things...

And since there is video... Of HG discussing this Kickstarter: Got any links?

I'm sure Stormonu can speak for himself, but as the individual amounts owed are likely less than the amount to hire a lawyer (It's not worth spending $500 on a lawyer if you're only owed $500, and aren't guaranteed getting that), he probably was seeking a firm that'd work on contingency, rather than up front actuals. That's different from pro-bono.

And if they don't think PB have the funds to recover their expenses, well... there's no point in them doing so.

There's also the issue I've mentioned several times before, and is a huge hindrance to any lawsuit. That being, while they MAY arguably be in breach of certain consumer laws, the currently are NOT in breach of the Kickstarter Terms and Conditions. As long as they do the song and dance of "working on it", and Kickstarter continue to say that's acceptable, that's a hell of a barrier that a lawfirm would have to breach before they can do anything further.

Kickstarter is not the arbiter of legal matters and they have already told one backer to seek legal means.

 n815e wrote:
Kickstarter is not the arbiter of legal matters and they have already told one backer to seek legal means.

Agreed.

That doesn't change the fact that arguing that Palladium are in breach of contract (arguably the easiest way to get a ruling), when according to the people that wrote the contract that Palladium aren't in breach of said contract, is a hard ask. And will be the first sticking point for lawyers who might consider taking this up on contingency. Further sticking points might be the questionable nature of PB's solvency. Getting a large judgment isn't worth squat if PB can't pay it.

As long as Kickstarter keep to their stance that as long as PB appears to be "working on it", the project hasn't failed, and that as long as the project hasn't failed, it'll be difficult to convince a lawyer (and then a judge), that the project has failed and therefore a refund is owed, getting someone who is interested in taking the case up, is not going to be easy.

Edit: Nevermind... My apologies. I transposed something said, from something said somewhere else.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 n815e wrote:
Kickstarter is not the arbiter of legal matters and they have already told one backer to seek legal means.

Agreed.


As long as Kickstarter keep to their stance that as long as PB appears to be "working on it", the project hasn't failed, and that as long as the project hasn't failed, it'll be difficult to convince a lawyer (and then a judge), that the project has failed and therefore a refund is owed, getting someone who is interested in taking the case up, is not going to be easy.

Surely 3-4 years of "getting quotes" cant stand up in court as "working on it", there is no other company out there in this hobby at least that takes that long, you have to just look at what games have come and gone in those 3-4 years since this funded to see how easy it is to "get quotes"

 Original Timmy wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

 n815e wrote:
Kickstarter is not the arbiter of legal matters and they have already told one backer to seek legal means.

Agreed.


As long as Kickstarter keep to their stance that as long as PB appears to be "working on it", the project hasn't failed, and that as long as the project hasn't failed, it'll be difficult to convince a lawyer (and then a judge), that the project has failed and therefore a refund is owed, getting someone who is interested in taking the case up, is not going to be easy.

Surely 3-4 years of "getting quotes" cant stand up in court as "working on it", there is no other company out there in this hobby at least that takes that long, you have to just look at what games have come and gone in those 3-4 years since this funded to see how easy it is to "get quotes"

A rational argument absolutely would rule that way. But that's not how the law works. If you sign a contract through an arbitrator that says you only get a refund under certain conditions, and the arbitrator says those conditions aren't yet met, and can show the flimsiest of arguments as to why that is so, I can easily see the chances of winning not being a slam dunk.

It's not a matter of what is right. It's a matter of first convincing a lawyer to take the case, and then having the lawyer they can both win the case, and make enough to be worthwhile, to be worth the risk of putting in time and money in the first place. And I think Kickstarter's stance on this NOT being a breach, is a factor in those calculations.

Yes, I think that liability shield is bs, and would probably collapse if put to the test. But the amount of work needed to do it, is probably more than what most contingency lawyers would be willing to put in. A high priced attourney probably could do it, but that requires a backer putting in significantly more than they would get back. Even the people with large investments (Glovals) would be spending a good percentage of the money they put in, to get any money back. And that assumes that the judge isn't convinced that a motion regarding the liability shield be tested.

I think the circumstances change significantly if Kickstarter acknowledge the RRT Kick has failed. And I think you'll see lawyers more willing to take up the case. That's why I'm personally of the opinion it's the primary sticking point here. But until then, who knows? It's clear that several people have sought out legal recourse, and been met with nothing. And there's only a few reasons why that could be the case. Because as people have pointed out, it's $1.5M, and it's pretty clear that nothing has been done in several years. That SHOULD be a slam dunk. So why else would it not have happened?

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Original Timmy wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

 n815e wrote:
Kickstarter is not the arbiter of legal matters and they have already told one backer to seek legal means.

Agreed.


As long as Kickstarter keep to their stance that as long as PB appears to be "working on it", the project hasn't failed, and that as long as the project hasn't failed, it'll be difficult to convince a lawyer (and then a judge), that the project has failed and therefore a refund is owed, getting someone who is interested in taking the case up, is not going to be easy.

Surely 3-4 years of "getting quotes" cant stand up in court as "working on it", there is no other company out there in this hobby at least that takes that long, you have to just look at what games have come and gone in those 3-4 years since this funded to see how easy it is to "get quotes"

A rational argument absolutely would rule that way. But that's not how the law works. If you sign a contract through an arbitrator that says you only get a refund under certain conditions, and the arbitrator says those conditions aren't yet met, and can show the flimsiest of arguments as to why that is so, I can easily see the chances of winning not being a slam dunk.

It's not a matter of what is right. It's a matter of first convincing a lawyer to take the case, and then having the lawyer they can both win the case, and make enough to be worthwhile, to be worth the risk of putting in time and money in the first place. And I think Kickstarter's stance on this NOT being a breach, is a factor in those calculations.

Yes, I think that liability shield is bs, and would probably collapse if put to the test. But the amount of work needed to do it, is probably more than what most contingency lawyers would be willing to put in. A high priced attourney probably could do it, but that requires a backer putting in significantly more than they would get back. Even the people with large investments (Glovals) would be spending a good percentage of the money they put in, to get any money back. And that assumes that the judge isn't convinced that a motion regarding the liability shield be tested.

I think the circumstances change significantly if Kickstarter acknowledge the RRT Kick has failed. And I think you'll see lawyers more willing to take up the case. That's why I'm personally of the opinion it's the primary sticking point here. But until then, who knows? It's clear that several people have sought out legal recourse, and been met with nothing. And there's only a few reasons why that could be the case. Because as people have pointed out, it's $1.5M, and it's pretty clear that nothing has been done in several years. That SHOULD be a slam dunk. So why else would it not have happened?

Yeah from the outside and not knowing US laws you would have thought it would be an easy slam dunk, it just seems PB are regurgitating the same lines over and over without showing any substance , once reported KS needs to actually look into stuff like this rather than just read the public updates and go by those, is it the fact KS might lose the $150K cut if backers get lawyers involved thats keeping them from saying PB is at fault!