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Even if we could get Kick starter to say RRT is a dead project;
Where is Palladium going to get the money for refunds??

I really don't think there is money for anyone.. My thoughts are why
we don't see any work on it, even if they were finished with it, I don't think
there is any money to pay for even the molds.. Why?? because they
over promised and over spent..

Here we are again were Palladium games is standing at the door of bankruptcy.
They been there a few times before but by some miracle was able to level back off.
That's why no Lawyer would go after them, Its like going after a dead beat father
in jail for back child support. You know there is no money there and almost impossible
to get anything from them.

That is why Ninja Division was a major reason I backed the project. They had a decent track
record at the time and was to be doing all the heavy lifting... Then Kevin saw $$$$

 Genoside07 wrote:
Even if we could get Kick starter to say RRT is a dead project;
Where is Palladium going to get the money for refunds??

I really don't think there is money for anyone.. My thoughts are why
we don't see any work on it, even if they were finished with it, I don't think
there is any money to pay for even the molds.. Why?? because they
over promised and over spent..

Here we are again were Palladium games is standing at the door of bankruptcy.
They been there a few times before but by some miracle was able to level back off.
That's why no Lawyer would go after them, Its like going after a dead beat father
in jail for back child support. You know there is no money there and almost impossible
to get anything from them.

That is why Ninja Division was a major reason I backed the project. They had a decent track
record at the time and was to be doing all the heavy lifting... Then Kevin saw $$$$

This is why I simply said forget it and moved on. No sense stressing on something I cannot change.

How much money would they have gotten from the savage worlds stuff? I mean like enough to keep the lights on for 6 months? 12 months?

Believe or not as you wish. For a while I kept all my correspondence in case I needed it later, but most of it I've gotten rid of now, so I have little physical proof.

I e-mailed PB for a refund (didn't save the e-mail), they denied it.

I contacted KS, they punted to PB.

I contacted the BBB, that was a joke as I learned that not only do they not have any teeth to do anything, companies can simply pay to retain a good rating through them (not that I think PB has any money to stave off the negative reviews I think they still may have).

I sent a complaint to the Michigan AG on 8/19/2015, about the same time Rick had. That's one of the two documents I still have. I've long tossed the response I got, but it basically said that it was between PB and me to iron out the differences.

I sent a complaint to the FTC (for mail fraud) on 12/12/2015, never heard a response.

I then contacted my personal lawyer in these parts (I think it was after the 2-part rant on the KS), but he did not believe that we'd get anything of substance from PB. Throwing good money after bad.

I then reached out to at least two firms that specialized in class-action lawsuits. Each responded negatively that they didn't believe they could recoup an amount that would be worth the case and the KS stipulation of "Working on it" was unlikely they'd win the case. By that point, I was so frustrated I didn't bother to keep the e-mail chain. I mentioned my attempts on one of the earlier pages if you want to look for it.

At this point, I feel like I have exhausted all my avenues for getting justice out of this farce. Next hope is that 2021 might have an effect, but the way things have been (not) going, I'm not counting on it.

 Genoside07 wrote:
Even if we could get Kick starter to say RRT is a dead project;
Where is Palladium going to get the money for refunds??

The Bad Man in my head tells me I want my money back by any means necessary, even if that means crushing PB into insolvency and forcing anyone that had their hands in the pot to become destitute and homeless.

The Good guy in my head thinks that's a good idea too.

Although he also thinks I should just find something more productive to do.

So I do that.

If I win the Powerball, I will revisit the Bad Man and follow his plan, no matter the loss incurred financially.

If I won the Powerball, there's far more constructive things I'd do with it than throw it down the drain after PB's clowns.

PB's had plenty of opportunity to make this right. The state of this KS has gone from a mere annoyance to a grudge match.

However, I am content with the knowledge that PB is a has-been, it's white knight customer base consists of an aging demographic or rose-tinted players from the nineties. When Kevin passes, his company will collapse and it will be a forgotten footnote in the annals of gaming - of how NOT to run a company.

Let them limp along dreaming false dreams of breaking out of their mediocrity as PB slowly slips again into a death spiral. Let Kevin stay awake at nights wondering how on earth he'll keep his crappy company afloat and spend his days hoping no one will call him on his scams to defraud others with his subpar products.

In the meantime, I'll sleep fine with a clear conscious and dream of the dozen games I have to enjoy playing. I'll just drop in here to poke PB in the ribs and watch them squirm.

It's all they deserve.

Yeah if I won the power ball, I have already promised a buddy that I would find a way for him to meet Sara Jean Underwood.
As the way it's going she maybe 84 years old before this happens..but wish me luck every time you buy a ticket...

But as everyone sees the stench outside of the white knight players , most newer gamer I have met recently don't have a clue who Kevin is or what Rifts is..
They do any checking and end up avoiding the game like a plague. On all the trade sites I frequent and Ebay, Rifts books go for about $5 each
with normal retail is usually $15-$25. That should give anyone a hint on how hot hot hot the game is..

Also with RRT, no gamers from X-wing, War-machine or 40k would dare to invest in it.. Most shops either have already clearance
the game out, but a very few keep the box game around as a bad reminder or just filling shelf space.

 Stormonu wrote:
Believe or not as you wish. For a while I kept all my correspondence in case I needed it later, but most of it I've gotten rid of now, so I have little physical proof.

I e-mailed PB for a refund (didn't save the e-mail), they denied it.

I contacted KS, they punted to PB.

I contacted the BBB, that was a joke as I learned that not only do they not have any teeth to do anything, companies can simply pay to retain a good rating through them (not that I think PB has any money to stave off the negative reviews I think they still may have).

I sent a complaint to the Michigan AG on 8/19/2015, about the same time Rick had. That's one of the two documents I still have. I've long tossed the response I got, but it basically said that it was between PB and me to iron out the differences.

I sent a complaint to the FTC (for mail fraud) on 12/12/2015, never heard a response.

I then contacted my personal lawyer in these parts (I think it was after the 2-part rant on the KS), but he did not believe that we'd get anything of substance from PB. Throwing good money after bad.

I then reached out to at least two firms that specialized in class-action lawsuits. Each responded negatively that they didn't believe they could recoup an amount that would be worth the case and the KS stipulation of "Working on it" was unlikely they'd win the case. By that point, I was so frustrated I didn't bother to keep the e-mail chain. I mentioned my attempts on one of the earlier pages if you want to look for it.

At this point, I feel like I have exhausted all my avenues for getting justice out of this farce. Next hope is that 2021 might have an effect, but the way things have been (not) going, I'm not counting on it.

As I mentioned earlier... My brain transposed your statement to mean that the lawyers had refused the case... And I got caught up on that "idea." And then put that word to your statement. My bad.

It's irrelevant... but I still don't believe you... For instance let me get this picture straight... You go to two firms... And did a consultation by email? Or you go meet with one or two firms, both of which are uninterested, yet you have email chain... Doesn't make much sense to me. I'm just some random dude on the internet...

Again, what were the names of the firms?

Now, let's say for a moment that what you're saying is true: What is of interest, would be the reasons each firm refused the case. I'm not a lawyer, but I can tell you that any legal council that gave you legal advice based on Kickstarter's own terms and conditions isn't a very good lawyer... Working on it, would be irrelevant to state/federal law at this point (or at any point). And the law is what lawyers do... In other words they wouldn't concerning themselves with what Kickstarter has to say... Maybe you just got bad legal advice?

 TalonZahn wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
Even if we could get Kick starter to say RRT is a dead project;
Where is Palladium going to get the money for refunds??

The Bad Man in my head tells me I want my money back by any means necessary, even if that means crushing PB into insolvency and forcing anyone that had their hands in the pot to become destitute and homeless.

The Good guy in my head thinks that's a good idea too.

Although he also thinks I should just find something more productive to do.

So I do that.

If I win the Powerball, I will revisit the Bad Man and follow his plan, no matter the loss incurred financially.

That what I would do if I won Mega or Powerball . I would not care about the money but just put Kev and PB out of business . DESTROY ALL PB IP.

Well I can understand all of you being upset that you gave them money for products that haven't been delivered, and may never will be, but based on what little I have seen it looks like you might as well cut your losses and move on to more positive things. PB may have stolen your money, but like any other company that does a crappy job, don't go back.

Yeah, that's all well and good if you didn't pledge here at all, but...

...in the meantime, this might not be the thread for you!

I mean, PB is literally doing NOTHING when it comes to this product, so there is NOTHING else to talk about.

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, that's all well and good if you didn't pledge here at all, but...

...in the meantime, this might not be the thread for you!

I mean, PB is literally doing NOTHING when it comes to this product, so there is NOTHING else to talk about.

Additionally, apathy is Palladium’s biggest friend. If everyone were to go silent, and write off their losses, Palladium wins.

Simply put, I doubt there are more than a handful of backers that would purchase or support any existing/future Palladium projects, at least not until this one delivers. So future sales from backers is mostly relevant. But as it stands, searching for the game mostly brings up negative responses. Meaning it affects their bottom line.

And while that might be seen as self defeating, there's a kind of vigilantism at play. A substantial amount of backers don't believe PB can complete the project. PB have not shown any evidence they can, wither from a financial or just general competency manner. So for some, it's a case of "If I'm screwed, then screw PB".

That might not be the most mature way to handle things, but given how much PB have dicked backers over for three years and counting, it's definitely not unfair to PB. Letting them get away with stiffing backers would not be justice. Even if the response is more schoolyard justice than moral high ground justice.

Cause feth PB and their gakky attitude.

EDIT : And just to be clear, most of the issue is not about the delay. It's about Kevin's attitude and response. The passing of the buck, the throwing under the bus, that Kevin is a genius and his only fault is trusting the wrong people, that backers have already got their value (several people got official responses to that effect), etc etc.

There are many other Kickstarters that have been heavily delayed. But most either communicate well, provide exceptional product, and/or offer refunds. PB are 0 for 3, and treat their backers like morons. It's an insult, and people respond in kind.

Morgan Vening wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, that's all well and good if you didn't pledge here at all, but...

...in the meantime, this might not be the thread for you!

I mean, PB is literally doing NOTHING when it comes to this product, so there is NOTHING else to talk about.

Additionally, apathy is Palladium’s biggest friend. If everyone were to go silent, and write off their losses, Palladium wins.

Simply put, I doubt there are more than a handful of backers that would purchase or support any existing/future Palladium projects, at least not until this one delivers. So future sales from backers is mostly relevant. But as it stands, searching for the game mostly brings up negative responses. Meaning it affects their bottom line.

And while that might be seen as self defeating, there's a kind of vigilantism at play. A substantial amount of backers don't believe PB can complete the project. PB have not shown any evidence they can, wither from a financial or just general competency manner. So for some, it's a case of "If I'm screwed, then screw PB".

That might not be the most mature way to handle things, but given how much PB have dicked backers over for three years and counting, it's definitely not unfair to PB. Letting them get away with stiffing backers would not be justice. Even if the response is more schoolyard justice than moral high ground justice.

Cause feth PB and their gakky attitude.

EDIT : And just to be clear, most of the issue is not about the delay. It's about Kevin's attitude and response. The passing of the buck, the throwing under the bus, that Kevin is a genius and his only fault is trusting the wrong people, that backers have already got their value (several people got official responses to that effect), etc etc.

There are many other Kickstarters that have been heavily delayed. But most either communicate well, provide exceptional product, and/or offer refunds. PB are 0 for 3, and treat their backers like morons. It's an insult, and people respond in kind.

While I understand the sentiment.....what does the opposite of apathy accomplish? Either way this game is sunk. PB, HG and ND crushed things and have all moved on. Nothing we do will get product into hand. Nothing we do will get our money back.?

Screaming and yelling = Personal feeling of accomplishment but no results. Maybe just maybe get those last few people you say are highly unlikely to support more stuff to go away. I find it highly doubtful this is going to honestly help anyone new at this point and make them think twice.

Just going elsewhere = Spending $ and time on other pursuits and letting PB drag itself down. Not giving Kevin any attention, to him is worse than bad attention. He has nobody to blame then or point fingers to or to try to compare himself too. Hence why Trump often just can't keep his mouth shut at time. That is simply one of the traits of a narcissist.

I don't really see much difference here......

@Mike, agreed that this shouldn't be the only outlet. And for most it's not. Forar and I have Shadows of Brimstone. Jaymz has his Battletech/Alphastrike. Others I've seen in other forums. If this is your only outlet, then yes, you need to find something that brings you joy. But having an outlet for disdain isn't an unreasonable thing. Especially if you can have fun with it too.

But as to the argument about this game being dead, that's true. But that's not the extent of Kevin's domain. If this Kickstarter was his only business, that'd be one thing. And I could understand people moving on. But his company is more than RRT. And if everyone went dark, he'd ride off into the sunset with that.

And given there's speculation and a reasonable suspicion that PB have used the KS funds to shore up the parent company, and nothing to show that it hasn't (an accounting of where the money has been spent and how much is left isn't an outlandish request, even if it is uncommon), that puts PB in the mix.

Silence benefits Kevin's ability to succeed. And given how he's treated the people who gave him ~$1.5M US, some people object to him being allowed to do that. It might be petty, but it's not unfair.

Morgan Vening wrote:
@Mike, agreed that this shouldn't be the only outlet. And for most it's not. Forar and I have Shadows of Brimstone. Jaymz has his Battletech/Alphastrike. Others I've seen in other forums. If this is your only outlet, then yes, you need to find something that brings you joy. But having an outlet for disdain isn't an unreasonable thing. Especially if you can have fun with it too.

But as to the argument about this game being dead, that's true. But that's not the extent of Kevin's domain. If this Kickstarter was his only business, that'd be one thing. And I could understand people moving on. But his company is more than RRT. And if everyone went dark, he'd ride off into the sunset with that.

And given there's speculation and a reasonable suspicion that PB have used the KS funds to shore up the parent company, and nothing to show that it hasn't (an accounting of where the money has been spent and how much is left isn't an outlandish request, even if it is uncommon), that puts PB in the mix.

Silence benefits Kevin's ability to succeed. And given how he's treated the people who gave him ~$1.5M US, some people object to him being allowed to do that. It might be petty, but it's not unfair.

Assuming he really had money to run off with and didn't just screw it all up buying wave one....

There's really no harm in people venting here and keeping the subject alive, to some extent.

It probably does more good then harm - for most.

If a KS screwed me out of (x), I'd keep the conversation going until it was really The End.

PB themselves have said to not worry - so might as well keep the conversation going.

Personally, I do not believe there is any backer who is still sat in his mum's basement, wringing his hands muttering about when wave 2 will arrive, while pushing a few RTT pieces around a dropzone map.

More likely, is that most already werei nto other systems or simply moved onto new ones, there are simply too many other great games out there.

What keeps us coming back? Morgan calls it exactly, a almost morbid, juvenile desire to make sure that PB does not get write this off and start up another falsely promised genre buster.

Who knows they might just pull it off by 2021, but deep down you know they will not. What is more likley - I suggest first quarter next year - is Kevin will finally admit failure (albeit it was not down to him since he did his best but those others....blah blah). Refunds , oh yes we can have refunds but as a prorata share of what funds are now left in the KS pot, but not in cash but Robotech bucks - at a favourable rate - that can only be spent on other PB merchandise.

This Thursday marks Scotts second quarter (officially ) as Business Manager and so will his update show real progress. One thing I am confident about is that it will not

Walk away? Nah this is like that scab on your knee you know you shouldn't, but you cannot help picking at it

 Alpharius wrote:
There's really no harm in people venting here and keeping the subject alive, to some extent.

It probably does more good then harm - for most.

If a KS screwed me out of (x), I'd keep the conversation going until it was really The End.

PB themselves have said to not worry - so might as well keep the conversation going.

And it's not like other conversation gets shut down. If people want to talk about the latest new thing that PB put out for RRT, or their own experience or ideas, it's not like it gets shut down with "Grr! Hate Palladium!". I've had several discussions with people about various aspects of the game and auxiliary aspects. It's just there's a lack of anything new to actually talk about in a positive light.

But as Alpharius says, this is partly on PB. If they admitted failure (and fault, and explained what happened, and offered restitution, but that's bloody unlikely), a lot of people would move on. But they're the ones "weekend at bernies"ing this debacle. And as long as they keep dragging it along, some backers are going to take their catharsis by entertaining themselves slapping PB around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wilycoyote wrote:
What keeps us coming back? Morgan calls it exactly, a almost morbid, juvenile desire to make sure that PB does not get write this off and start up another falsely promised genre buster.

And we KNOW for a fact that they want to. I don't think anyone has a shadow of a doubt that if they didn't have this elephant around their neck, the Rifts board game would be an in-house production, with Kevin having a very public role.

Instead we have the flimsy farce of what we got last time. But that's my point. PB want to move on from RRT without consequences. And some backers simply aren't going to let them.

PB, HG and ND crushed things and have all moved on. Nothing we do will get product into hand. Nothing we do will get our money back.?

ND have moved on, for sure.

HG have moved on. As we are seeing, they've moved on to providing game licenses to companies other than PB and I am positive that is a result of people complaining about how PB has handled this. PB didn't know that other companies were getting licenses, I'm sure that was an interesting conversation when Kevin called HG to find out what was going on.

PB shouldn't be allowed to move on, even though they have tried. The Not-PB Rifts kickstarter did poorly. For whatever reasons you want to associate to that, personally, it seems obvious to me that PB were banking on people ignoring the "mean Robotech backers", a core of Rifts fans creating a tsunami of excitement and funding, and their own lousy reputation not having any impact.
But that didn't work, in part because those of us who won't let others forget that they stole our money and it's a risk to give them more based on promises.
It's not the only cause, but it's one of the primary ones.

Which is why I think Scott was brought on, to at least give the appearance (if not actual effort) that this was getting resolved and their other issues cleaned up, because it has finally dawned on them that their core base of fans that have managed to keep the lights on are not going to do more than that (and probably aren't even managing that any more) and nobody else is going to give them money with such a terrible reputation.

When Kevin complained that nobody at a trade show knew who they were and to get the word out, that's bad. Now when anyone remotely interested does a search to see what they are about and find they have stiffed backers, who is going to buy their stuff?

We are on schedule tomorrow for another "no information" aka "This is what Kevin told me" update..

Funny thing is I still get the weekly updates from Palladium (even though I unsubscribed numerous times)
And in it Kevin said that he got a phone call from his Business Manager.. Not Scott... not by his name... as if he
is not worth even talking to or even called by his name, just his title.. Shows the state of mind Kevin has about him...

I don't even own my box set anymore.. and would quickly get rid of any RRT that would show up on my door step.
but like most, I am still owed something... Even its the truth on what Kevin squandered the money on instead of the
product I paid for years ago....

Correction...


I have my alpha strike, xwing, armada, attack wing, wh40k, flames of war, team yankee, heroclix, and soon imperial assault followed not long after by legion.

Oddly enough i got into all of these AFTER i gave up on rrt.

Man, the list of things I've delved into since this debacle is too much to list here. It's easily been a few thousand, probably $6-8$K over the last three years or so.

If PB had managed to finish this KS in a timely manner, I would have had no qualms about throwing them money for a New Generation/Mospeada?Sentinels game, even if there had been a scale change. I'm sure more folks than me would have felt the same.

They truly did waste an opportunity to get their company back on track and into the black, and it is truly all on them.

 Stormonu wrote:
Man, the list of things I've delved into since this debacle is too much to list here. It's easily been a few thousand, probably $6-8$K over the last three years or so.
If PB had managed to finish this KS in a timely manner, I would have had no qualms about throwing them money for a New Generation/Mospeada?Sentinels game, even if there had been a scale change. I'm sure more folks than me would have felt the same.
They truly did waste an opportunity to get their company back on track and into the black, and it is truly all on them.

A good sentiment to have that would be rewarding for any "normal" company.
Palladium Books is too focused on "get rich quick" schemes on the backs of others.
Living off the residue of prior "glories" with overpromise and under deliver (or not at all).
What you mention here is not a motivator for them in the least.
Anything amounting to a "donation" is where their focus is or they would not sell so many "trinkets".

It is pretty clear that at the very least Kevin feels entitled to our money and that we should feel rewarded enough to be counted among his "fan-friends".
I wish this was more joke than truth, but it is not.

While I'm sure it's done with good intentions, I don't find it helpful for people to wander in every so often and say 'gee guys, don't you think you should give it up?'

No. Thanks. I'm quite content to discuss the topics that the mods permit, including this one.

And it's not like this topic consumes large portions of my week. 5 or 10 minutes here and there catching up and crafting a little snark of my own isn't a massive sink on my time. I spend more time mucking around in various mobile games on my phone, reading, catching up on shows, slowly assembling/painting Shadows of Brimstone stuff, and watching US politics with dawning horror as it seems y'all are destined to usher in the end times (kidding... mostly...).

This thread is filled with mostly people who were similarly ripped off, thus giving it a measure of camaraderie, and hopefully acts as something of a warning to others who might stumble across it, assuming one look at the KS comments didn't send them screaming from the room.

Not to get too grandiose about what is basically 'gak-posting for lulz', but sure, getting a few laughs and providing a hint of community service for a low investment in time isn't exactly a tall call.

Used to be a lot more to keep up with when this thread was flying through multiple pages a day. The last page started like 3 or 4 days ago. We're not exactly putting out small novels these days.

I talked with my friends at PattonBoggs (google it, I'll wait) and we talked about this case.

They would not touch it, because they believe they won't win. The short version of the story is: PB hasn't actually done anything wrong, the KS T&C cover PB, and nobody of any real value wants to be early case law against KS.

I looked into getting an attorney in MI after I tried to get the great state of MD to go after PB. I told them what I want is:
1) A refund for my whatever (I don't care to look it up) like $300 to 500
2) What the KS funds were spent on via a discovery release (if you don't know what the legal definition of discovery is, please don't reply)

His estimate for the that was:
1) Write a settlement letter (2 hours)
2) Follow-up and get blown off on settlement (4 hours)
3) File a motion (2 hours)
4) Request discovery (1)
I'm at 9 hours at $200/hour and I don't have a single thing.

There is no way I'm throwing $5k at PB for legal fees.

Also, don't forget that PB hasn't broken a single law nor violated a contract. PB can (and should) ask for legal fees back and punitive damages.

I don't know anything about the district court that this would be in. For all I know, the judge could be a fan-friend.

It's a basic consumer law, whereby they took money for preorders and fail to deliver. You can sue them in your local small claims court, because that's where you reside, and that's where PB agreed to deliver to.

But it is not.

They did not take $ for pre-orders. Go read the KS T&C.

They have not failed to deliver. PB is "working" on it.

And no,the small claims stuff is nonsense. Don't believe me, go file it and see how that works for you (assuming you don't live in MI).

If you really believe that, well, you're either being naive or disingenuous.

PB is not, in fact, "working on it", if by "it" you mean the Kickstarter from which they took in 1.4 Millions USD.

A Kickstarter is - by Kickstarter's own admission - a contract.

PB has not fulfilled that contract and doesn't look to be able to do so by any reasonable definition of one.

What we're looking at has long been the crux of the issue; they have ripped off thousands of people for a fairly small amount of money apiece. Of course, ~$270-300 US is not chump change, but in the grand scheme of things, we're not talking about thousands of backers out tens of thousands of dollars apiece. Nobody was tragically injured or died as a cause of this project (that I'm aware of, and now is not the time to point at Carmen's situation in case anyone gets an idea).

They even managed to deliver wave one, which one can have qualms about the quality of, but some portion (pro-rated, whatever) was handed over.

I am not a lawyer, but while I'd like to think "these donkey caves haven't shown more than token progress in 3 years" would be worth something, "they owe me like 1/3 to 1/2 of a $300 pledge" probably isn't going to set the courts alight over the injustice, in my layman's opinion.

So it's enough to be annoyed by, along with the frustration over the lacking quality of the figures/game, along with the ongoing lies/misdirection. But it's not enough to get me to pony up hundreds or thousands of dollars to attempt to recoup even the more substantial amount my friends and I pitched in (3 of us got 8 Battle Cry tiers and another couple hundred bucks in add ons, probably around $1,400-1,500 total, not bragging, simply presenting that my friends and I were not simply splitting a Reckless amongst ourselves).

Oh god, how I wish we'd just stuck with a single Reckless and a few add ons. >.<

What KS is and isn't is a land of pedantry. No, it's not a pre-order, nor is it an investment. It's not a charity or a pledge drive, it is *like* things that many consumers are familiar with, but lacks much of the basic protections inherent to most of those. This was less of a big deal when companies were asking for like 1-10 grand for some little thing, it's another when companies are pulling in millions a couple hundred bucks at a time.

That we don't have other legal recourse is not a strong point of the platform, and I suspect will be addressed some day. Wait for some Congressperson's grandkid to get ripped off for a couple of grand and maybe we'll see someone go light a fire under their butts.

Until then, scorn and mockery are about all that many of us have. Hell, something like 1,400 backers (around 1/4 of us) aren't even located in the US. If the notion of pursuing legal action to attempt to get restitution is unappealing even to those in the US (still likely limited by geography to a degree), imagine trying to do so from afar. Most of us are probably getting nothing further from this gakshow, but folks like Morgan in Australia and my friends here in the frozen wastes to the north? We're *really* not getting anything further.

So if keeping a little entertainment by smearing PB's name now and then is the best I'm gonna do, well then I guess that'll just have to suffice.

I feel that's a fairly realistic assessment of things, others are welcome to disagree and have their own take on the matter, I certainly don't speak for us all.

evancich wrote:
But it is not.

Are you and your lawyers completely ignorant of how consumer law and contract law works?

It is already settled case law that the contract must be enforcible, whereby either they deliver, or they provide a proper accounting, or they give you your money back. Simple as that.

To claim otherwise is ludicrous.

And were I the lead backer in my group, I absolutely would have built up an evidentiary case to get my money back via small claims.