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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

evancich wrote:
But it is not.

Are you and your lawyers completely ignorant of how consumer law and contract law works?

It is already settled case law that the contract must be enforcible, whereby either they deliver, or they provide a proper accounting, or they give you your money back. Simple as that.

To claim otherwise is ludicrous.

And were I the lead backer in my group, I absolutely would have built up an evidentiary case to get my money back via small claims.

Agree 1001%

This is exactly what I said earlier... The Kickstarter ToS shouldn't be the deciding factor of any legal firm... The Tos is (very near) fething irrelevant... If you get a consultation and the lawyer is advising you about Kickstarter's ToS, rather than matters of law (which is their profession)... That's bad fething legal advice... It's not even legal advice at all... Though I asked for links, if any of this "legal advice" is true, I don't need to look it up. I've hired lawyers and gone to court. It's bad/wrong advice.

You clearly have no idea about what you are talking about.

The T&C and the fact that PB is "working" on it are all that actually matter.

Or, shut the feth up and go pro se and file your own motion and please post back here with how a company in MI handles your motion

Evancich, your whole argument falls apart when you realize that they did in fact take preorders through their backerkit, outside of kickstarter altogether for wave two.

Many a deal has been made outside of the bounds of kickstarter.

They have even allowed third parties to buy kickstarter pledges from other people, a deal that does not subject the person purchasing the pledge to the kickstarter terms of service.

evancich wrote:
Or, shut the feth up

Excuse me?

You clearly have no idea about what you are talking about.

*plonk*

But it's not really settled caselaw AFAIK. The two cases I know of are both in Washington State (or at least not Michigan), and not at a federal level. While I'm sure that can be relevant, I'm not sure it's the same thing.

And as evanovich alludes to, it's not even a matter of winning. Costs to do so far outstrip costs recouped. And if you get a law oriented judge instead of a justice oriented one, or just one who thinks arguing over toys is dumb, the case can go completely to gak, and you're out more money on top of the money already outlaid.

Look, I don't think the legalities of the situation would protect PB or even Kickstarter from fair judgment. But there's enough there that breaching that bs would be cumbersome enough that it's simply not worth the cost, especially for an out of state backer.

So uh, there's a new robotech game announced
Seems like it's not from Palladium
http://robotechboardgames.com/robotech-attack-on-the-sdf-1/

I wonder what impact this could have

 dreamakuma wrote:
So uh, there's a new robotech game announced
Seems like it's not from Palladium
http://robotechboardgames.com/robotech-attack-on-the-sdf-1/

I wonder what impact this could have

This was announced a while back.

Yeah, I think it was available for demos at Gencon or some other recent event? It was brought up to PB, and their response was basically 'waitwhat?'.

evancich wrote:
You clearly have no idea about what you are talking about.
The T&C and the fact that PB is "working" on it are all that actually matter.
Or, shut the feth up and go pro se and file your own motion and please post back here with how a company in MI handles your motion

For one thing, it is a forum so telling someone to shut up is not really an option and irritates moderators.
It has been established whatever the method, litigation with Palladium Books will be an expense far in excess of what it is worth, no matter what we feel.
If you feel those do not understand what is said and you recommend a course of action: how about you demonstrate your competency and file against PB.

As Forar has pointed out earlier, this group has become something of a support group, a "Palladium Anonymous" where we have made vows to kick the habit of sending money their way.
I hope you are as savvy as you claim, I would hate for you to lose and PB get more money out of you in a countersuit for embellished legal fees.

@Tali,

You've confused people's positions. Evancich was the one who looked into the suit, and explained why it wasn't likely to yield results. Johnny was the one who didn't, and explained why it would.

Either way, I enjoy these discussions that are taking place on a dicsussion forum.

Provided we all stay within the bounds of RULE#1, #2 and #3.

Telling people to 'shut up' is decidedly NOT within the rules here, as previously noted, so let's all please make more of an effort to keep it civil and enjoyable for all.

If that means that some people should ignore (literally or figuratively) certain people in this thread - OR the ENTIRE thread - then so be it!

Pre-orders doesn't apply to me, since I only backed the KS.

When I looked into this, (again) all I wanted was my refund and discovery around the KS $. I don't care about anything after the KS, since I was not part of that and don't have a claim for it.

Being a patent attorney, this isn't my area. And, I'm only licensed in VA, DC, MD, and NY.

I wrote a "real" legal letter to the AG for MI and MD. MI ignored me. MD told me to basically feth off and contact MI.

I asked the scariest real lawyers I know at Patton Boggs to do it. This pre-dates the FTC suit that happens. They told me that: PB is shielded (for the reasons I typed before) and Patton Boggs doesn't want to be the first real firm that goes after KS.

Real firms stayed away and it took the FTC to do that to move the needle.

So, I talk to a lawyer in MI in the district (if you don't know the difference between district and circuit, please don't reply) that PB's address is. His quote to me was $3k and that will get the 1st discovery response.

If PB isn't dumb, their response would be:
Total from the KS: $1.5M (or whatever)

And not provide the break down. Which means I'd have to pay the lawyer for another day in court to get relief and get a judge to maybe (and very maybe not) force PB to respond in kind. This is called enforcement. Enforcement is the only part that matters and it is the most expensive part.

Anybody giving you legal advice if they ignore enforcement, ignore their "legal" advice.

His belief, my (educated) belief, and scary fething lawyers all believe:
1) PB hasn't broken the law.
2) KS T&C protect them.

Therefore, they are in the "right" and would be dumb to settle. A judge (and any lawyer worth their salt will tell you to never, ever go in front of a judge) will ask simple questions like:
1) Prove that PB isn't working on it
2) etc

We (in the USA) do have that whole innocent thing. And as much as we think PB is terrible and stole our $. Anybody that brings this to court, will have to prove that to a judge and/or jury.

All PB has to say is: "These people are vexing litigants and here are quotes from a month ago, see we are working on it".

And nobody on this thread has a response that will carry any legal water to that.

If I was PB's lawyer (shudder) I'd:
1) Ask for fees and damages
2) Say absolutely nothing
3) Make the other side prove every little thing and provide docs against anything that was claimed

This just simply is not a winnable case until PB calls it quits. Admits any wrong doing.

And if you think otherwise, you simply don't know anything about the law.

Morgan Vening wrote:
But it's not really settled caselaw AFAIK. The two cases I know of are both in Washington State (or at least not Michigan), and not at a federal level. While I'm sure that can be relevant, I'm not sure it's the same thing.

And as evanovich alludes to, it's not even a matter of winning. Costs to do so far outstrip costs recouped. And if you get a law oriented judge instead of a justice oriented one, or just one who thinks arguing over toys is dumb, the case can go completely to gak, and you're out more money on top of the money already outlaid.

Look, I don't think the legalities of the situation would protect PB or even Kickstarter from fair judgment. But there's enough there that breaching that bs would be cumbersome enough that it's simply not worth the cost, especially for an out of state backer.

My point, is that those saying they've gotten legal advice, didn't actually get legal advice or if they did -in fact get legal advice; share that advice in a way a lawyer would express. Disinformation is Palladium's tactic as well as is puffing one-self up (I am Palladium Books -Keven)... Costs are certainly relevant for an individual backer... I mean why pour 2K (as one person noted) into something when you've pledge $300-$500 dollars. But Indie GoGo or Go Fund Me are real options aren't they? Now you have 5K backers who if just half wish to pour 3-5 dollars you could easily raise somewhere around $7.5-$10K...

Personally I'd nominate someone like Forar to handle the funds... So who's the best Forar in MI?

I did. Several times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The lowest legal bar (in MD) is a temp peace order. The process is:
1) Goto the cops and claim that your friend said they'd punch you in the face
2) A few days alter go in front of a judge and "prove" that this happened and affriad, etc

that "prove" is 51%. The legal def is it more likely happened than didn't

To win against PB, you are beyond a reasonable doubt (since PB didn't break the law and we want a contract mod), which is 91%

Do you think you can talk a judge (and likely a jury) into believing that PB stole your $XYZ and isn't trying to make it right?

When:
1) PB is sitting there with proof and saying they are "working" on it
2) Nobody cares about your toys
3) They judged you as a basement living 'net dweller
4) You are out of state
5) They don't understand fundstarter

Morgan Vening wrote:
@Tali,
You've confused people's positions. Evancich was the one who looked into the suit, and explained why it wasn't likely to yield results. Johnny was the one who didn't, and explained why it would.

I am glad some information was given that was useful.
I have not confused anything: make your points, demonstrate knowledge, do not get condescending or tell them not to contribute or post.
I appreciate the attempt at trying to mollify matters however.
I really like to save my ire for Palladium Books rather than the folk here.
People are at least trying to hammer out some kind of path or plan on dealing with a situation that we are in no reasonable position to force into compliance.
It is not fair, it sucks, but a narcissist got our money through misrepresentation intentional or otherwise and he feels fully entitled to it.
So unless someone decides this is important enough to "take a hit for the team" we just keep the dialogue alive that Palladium Books is not an ethical publisher and needs to be dogged to the ends of their operating life.

My first ban ever was at Palladium Books and shortly followed on the Kickstarter for RRT.
PB holds a "special place" for me, I have gone through life feeling I have done good and lived well and I run into this gang of fun and get treated like some donkeycave.
So yeah, venting is good, we appear to be able to continue under the patronage of Alpharius so I try to keep his wishes in mind in keeping to some point of this thread.

I think we are due for an "update" today?

At this point... I don't this a potential case being, "winnable..." Matters much.

One thing for certain. If Palladium has to open their books it might be winnable. If they haven't pad their taxes that might be something. If they've simply collected shipping and handling fees (or incorporated them at cost, when the Kickstarter started/concluded) and neither shipped or handled what they collected funds for... That could be a potential issue...

Two out of three of those points are pretty certain. What does winnable even mean? If folks got back 10% of what they backed for that'd be a lot more than 10% of nothing their going get in regards to rewards. If Palladium goes bankrupt, that'd also be fine by a lot of folks.

Court isn't like on TV.

::waves magic wand::

Dakka is in court with Kev.

D: Your honor, they didn't pay taxes on this KS $.
Judge: That isn't part of the motion in front of me, it certainly goes after their characrter
Kev: Object

It just doesn't work like that. And, by the way, it is good that you don't know this. Keep living your life where you never have to intersect with the legal system.


If we want to do this:
$70 fee covers up to $5.5k in MI.

If anybody here lives in MI (you really have to do this in person) and wants to pro se rep 10 of us here or is willing to head there, I'll pay the filing fee and walk them thru how to legal up the paper work over the phone one day.

We will not win. But, it might be satisfying.

It'll be pro se vs pro se and whomever files will have maybe 45 min in front of a judge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, the reason for local is "speedy trial" (lol).

If we filed today, we are talking 4 months later. Here in MD, you are more like 6 to 9 months later.

And you 100% have to show up on the day.

Who wants to sign up to do this in March or July of 2018?

evancich wrote:
I did. Several times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The lowest legal bar (in MD) is a temp peace order. The process is:
1) Goto the cops and claim that your friend said they'd punch you in the face
2) A few days alter go in front of a judge and "prove" that this happened and affriad, etc

that "prove" is 51%. The legal def is it more likely happened than didn't

To win against PB, you are beyond a reasonable doubt (since PB didn't break the law and we want a contract mod), which is 91%

Do you think you can talk a judge (and likely a jury) into believing that PB stole your $XYZ and isn't trying to make it right?

When:
1) PB is sitting there with proof and saying they are "working" on it
2) Nobody cares about your toys
3) They judged you as a basement living 'net dweller
4) You are out of state
5) They don't understand fundstarter

Okay. Link some MI Statutes would you? Us non-lawyers got to keep up.

Yeah...um....

That is just the legal def (our words mean different things).

If you want links...
http://mdcourts.gov/courtforms/joint/ccdcdvpo001br.pdf

I don't know anything about the law in MI. I'd assume it is company friendly since the car companies are there.

evancich wrote:
Yeah...um....

That is just the legal def (our words mean different things).

If you want links...
http://mdcourts.gov/courtforms/joint/ccdcdvpo001br.pdf

I don't know anything about the law in MI. I'd assume it is company friendly since the car companies are there.

What is a peace and protective order from the MD court... Have to do with MI? I mean, if you are a lawyer... lmao!

This is just too rich for me... I got boots on, but apparently I need hip-waiters! I'll just put you on ignore... no worries. If you say something relivant that isn't condescending... like, "Court is not like it is on TV..." And so on, some else can note it.

Don't forget you'll have to explain Robotech, mini war gaming and PB to the judge.

As a grown person.

Yes, your honor, I play with toy soldiers from a cartoon in the 1980s. No I can't play my game with these toys I need toys that look a tiny bit different to REALLY play it.

And, Kev slaps down a quote from China (that nobody can read) and says that is from a week ago and production will maybe start in 2 months. This person is crazy and I don't know why I'm here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was giving an analogy of what the legal bars are.

Lowest in MD is a temp peace order, which is about 51%. The other is 91%, almost twice.

Do you think anybody here in a few hours can talk a judge into that PB isn't "working" on it? When the bar is that much higher?

Given that judges are people like anyone else, yes, I could see some difficulty if they get lost in the minutia, but that argument (as a layperson) has never held water.

"Toys" or models or kitchen appliances or an iphone, it doesn't matter what the item is, simply that a product was in development, we were offered X items in exchange for Y contribution, we followed through on our behalf, they have maybe covered 1/3 to 1/2 or so of their obligations.

Please understand, I'm not challenging that this may well be how it is. I'm trying to comment on how it may well be versus how I'd like to hope it would be.

I'd like to think that it wouldn't matter if I paid up front for a couple grand worth of sex toys or something, at the end of the day, people should be protected whether or not the judge presiding over the case thinks that's dumb or not.

But, again, I respect that this may be an overly idealistic worldview. Especially after watching some of the bits about judges on shows like Last Week Tonight.

I think if I had to sort this bullgak out like my life depended on it, I could give a fairly good crack at things. Without touting my own horn (in public... how embarrassing) I'm kind of a scholar of this gakshow. But I wouldn't be confident enough to pony up a couple of grand to make it happen just to recoup maybe half a grand worth of outstanding items from my group's add ons and pro-rated missing items from the pledged tiers.

Yes, your honor, I play with toy soldiers from a cartoon in the 1980s. No I can't play my game with these toys I need toys that look a tiny bit different to REALLY play it.

Did they take money in exchange for a product?
Did they provide everything they agreed to in the contract?
Did they misuse the money?
Did they provide the product in the timeframe that they indicated?
Did they use the methods that they indicated when they took the money?
Did they provide effective communication as to the cause and reasons of the delay?

Nothing else is relevant.

I am not so insecure in my hobbies to be ashamed of playing with toy soldiers in the first place.
I'm an educated and respected professional, a responsible adult, I own property and pay taxes, I have a family. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of what I do with my free time.
If you took my money in exchange for a product -- any product -- in a legal transaction, then you owe me and the law is not going to judge the merit of that based on if it is for toys, car parts, food or any other product.

So this angle of yours to try to belittle what is owed or to shame those who are owed is nonsense.

And, Kev slaps down a quote from China (that nobody can read) and says that is from a week ago and production will maybe start in 2 months. This person is crazy and I don't know why I'm here.

Another bit of nonsense. In your imagination, you think courts don't require documents to have been interpreted.
In your imagination, years of misleading customers can be wiped away with some piece of paper indicating that things will finally start (possibly) moving.
Read your own posts - court isn't like tv.

I'm glad we have someone that pretends to know anything about law, again. It's been a while. The condescension mixed with ignorance is entertaining.

Well, we get started by going here for small claims:
http://courts.mi.gov/administration/scao/forms/pages/search-for-a-form.aspx
Small claims here (appears form is out of date??):
http://courts.mi.gov/Administration/SCAO/Forms/Pages/Small-Claims.aspx
Actual form:
http://courts.mi.gov/Administration/SCAO/Forms/courtforms/dc84.pdf
It explains things pretty well.
At most, the actual fee (with no lawyer) is $70.
Here is a guide:
https://michiganimmigrant.org/sites/default/files/Small%20Claims%20Court%20Information%20-%20English.pdf

It looks reasonable, I am sure the next strategy is for PB to insist on going to a civil case and hoping the person chickens out.
I read many documents in my day to day (not legal specifically but binding all the same) and find this form actually somewhat humane.

It does question how far would Unca Kev have to open his books to prove he is 'working on it'? He might well get by with throwing a few quotes out there and say that there have been the usual contractual issues that have been consistently ending in irreconcilable differences between Palladium and the potential manufacturers before a contract could be drawn up.
We'd be well within our rights to cry foul on that after three years but what is the legal definition of 'working on it'? It's not impossible to manage to get a court case to invoke some transparency on Palladium's part, but it'll be expensive for sure. If we could get every backer to pitch in $5 there could probably be a start but I imagine we'd get 1% of backers to actually commit and end up with a massive legal fund of $267 unfortunately.
I hate to bet on apathy but I doubt even a 100 backers would really commit to getting the lawyer wheels greased much less the 2,500 it would take to raise the money and not be a burden of throwing good money after bad, you know?
I think Palladium could be cracked but it would take organization and agreement on levels that just don't happen much on the intarwebs.

I'm just full on speculating with what I've read here.

But it's gonna take money
A whole lot of spending money
It's gonna take plenty of money
To do it right child

It's gonna take time
A whole lot of precious time
It's gonna take patience and time, um
To do it, to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it
To do it right child

 n815e wrote:

I'm glad we have someone that pretends to know anything about law, again. It's been a while. The condescension mixed with ignorance is entertaining.

If was rabid pitbull-ing I would assume it was Rick back with an alternate account.

So now I'm going...B_S?

 Talizvar wrote:
Well, we get started by going here for small claims:
http://courts.mi.gov/administration/scao/forms/pages/search-for-a-form.aspx

It looks reasonable, I am sure the next strategy is for PB to insist on going to a civil case and hoping the person chickens out.

In my case, I'd start here:

California Courts wrote:Consumer purchase (claim by seller) — A claim to enforce a debt arising from a consumer purchase can be filed only in the county or area of court location (1) where the consumer signed the contract, (2) where the consumer resided when the contract was signed, (3) where the consumer resided when the action was filed, or (4) where goods purchased on installment credit are installed or permanently kept.
Consumer purchase (claim by buyer) — An action also can be filed in localities (1), (2), or (3) immediately above by the consumer against a business firm that provided the consumer with goods, consumer services, or consumer credit. An action also can be filed by the consumer in any of those locations if the suit is based on a purchase that results from an unsolicited telephone call made by the seller to the buyer (including a situation where a buyer responds by a telephone call or electronic transmission).

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/small_claims/file.shtml

If I were the lead backer for the pledge, I would absolutely have standing and venue to file in California, Service By Mail to Palladium's legal address of record.

For anyone that gives a tinkers' cuss, Scotts' Update #8 is posted. If you were not expecting much, you will not be disappointed.

 Seawolf wrote:
For anyone that gives a tinkers' cuss, Scotts' Update #8 is posted. If you were not expecting much, you will not be disappointed.

And no mention of the Force Orgs. Again.

I'm pretty sure he's forgotten he promised. Because it's the SIMPLEST FETHING THING.

Instead, next to nothing. The renders of the Objective Pack 1 are OK I guess,
EDIT : And it appears not even those are particularly original. n815e posted a picture from Update 111 that clearly shows both the tuna and infiltrator Max as having remained pretty unchanged. It does look like the Minmei has changed. The original appears to be looking off to her right, and the other is looking more straight ahead. But as others have said, if this is done TO SCALE, unlike what I always assumed was just an abstract out of scale objective, it's going to be so small as to be irrelevant. There's zero chance they can get any kind of detail retained, and it looking much different (and no bigger than) a Game of Life person is unlikely. Of course, Scott does couch things in Kevin-esque weasel words. One new model of three is still showing "more renders of game pieces that haven’t been posted in the Kickstarter Updates before". He IS showing a new game piece. And two old ones. Bleh.

And I'm glad he didn't mention quotes if he had nothing to report on that front. But that doesn't change that there's NOTHING TO REPORT ON THAT FRONT.

It really just is amazing how bad PB are at this. Jeff, Wayne and Kevin before him, and now Scott doing the same.

Yeah... But the estimated ship date was December 2013 and we are just a few months away for a 4th year anniversary.
I don't believe anything they post on there...

3 things I will take as truth when it happens..

1. Palladium games goes bankrupt.
2. I get a shipping notice saying my stuff is on the truck to my house.
3. 2021 happens and HG loses the licence, so all product will get pulled.

Some or all might happen.. but I am thinking we are just looking at a pipe dream now...

Emails, pictures of renders and kickstarter postings don't cost anything... we are looking at vapor ware at this point.