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Made in gb
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

I'd be ok with a settled status if it's irrevocable to prevent people getting screwed by going back to the EU for a while to look after family. Though I'd much rather see dual nationality.
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
 r_squared wrote:
 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
 r_squared wrote:
When the IRA and other republican groups and members of the community start to cooperate into the investigations of the many murders committed by their members, then I think there will be a sense that justice is being sought in Northern Ireland.


Don't see many security force members coming forward about the crimes they committed? Are you not calling for loyalists to come forward either seeing as they killed more civilians than republicans actually did?

Republicans are being investigated over issues relating to the troubles (despite the lies May is pushing), it's just the army are getting a slightly disproportionate amount of investigations due to no one have been convicted for them at the time unlike those relating to paramilitaries.

http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/northernirelandnews/2018/05/15/news/george-hamilton-psni-chief-constable-says-theresa-may-is-wrong-about-legacy-cases-1329992/content.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44054424


I didn't say come forward, I said co-operate. Republican's have never co-operated in investigations to bring justice to the families of victims such as the Omagh bombing where shoppers and children were murdered in cold blood. When I start to see progress here, then I may change my views on the idea of "justice" in Northern Ireland.

But thanks for bringing political violence and murder into the politics thread.


So republicans should co-operate but no one else? Your idea of justice would appear to be republicans first then everyone else, paramilitaries are seen as criminals so surely the army who were there to protect people should be held to a higher moral standard. My problems with the issue stems from this belief that because these men wore a uniform they should be exempt or put to the end of the queue for inquires.

The Omagh bomb was carried out by a sub sect within a sub sect of republicanism that has cut ties with the main branches, so people are unlikely t come forward because the only ones who know anything are the ones who actually planted the bombs.

It's politically related and affects the UK so why shouldn't it be brought up in the UK politics thread, legacy issues were brought up a few weeks a go on this thread.


I never said that no one else should not co-operate, I just pointed out that republicans are not blameless and that there is a burning desire for justice on the British side too for the murders committed by republicans whatever "sub-sect" they belong too.

It boils my fething piss to see posts like this which are so one sided, so self righteous and so utterly dismissive of the pain that has been caused by this fething gak show. By all means demand justice, but be mindful of the fact that if you only focus on one side, you alienate and inflame the anger and resentment everywhere.

Republicans are just as guilty of atrocities in Northern Ireland, and after painful reflection I reconciled myself to the amnesty afforded by the GFA.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/nov/10/northernireland.northernireland1

We learned from the experience of reconciliation in South Africa how best to go forward, yet it seems British soldiers are not being afforded any amnesty, and are being hung out to dry by these sort of proceedings.

It fething pisses me off more than I can reasonably express, me and every single serviceman and woman I know. It's fething bollocks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote:
Everyone should be held to account for any wrong-doings on both sides.


Absolutely, however, the GFA took the path shown by Nelson Mandela in South Africa and pursued a "Truth and reconcilliation" policy which allowed us to move forward.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_(South_Africa)

I remember very clearly that this was a chance for us to move past the horrors and violence of the past, and genuinely hoped that it would be lead to a long lasting peace. It seems that some people just want to drag us back into that quagmire.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/21 22:57:58


"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Everybody involved in The Troubles should have been held accountable for their crimes, but we supposedly chose to forgive and forget in the GFA in the interests of peace. Now we appear to be reneging on that agreement, but we're only holding one side accountable. What is just and equitable about that?

I fully agree that any British Army or loyalist paramilitary veterans suspected of murder should be investigated, prosecuted and convicted.
But can we please pursue the IRA with the same zeal?

Otherwise, it just looks to me like you're taking revenge, not seeking justice.

And feth me, I'm in agreement with R_squared. This has been a strange week for me.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/22 00:51:13


 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Everybody involved in The Troubles should have been held accountable for their crimes, but we supposedly chose to forgive and forget in the GFA in the interests of peace. Now we appear to be reneging on that agreement, but we're only holding one side accountable. What is just and equitable about that?

I fully agree that any British Army or loyalist paramilitary veterans suspected of murder should be investigated, prosecuted and convicted.
But can we please pursue the IRA with the same zeal?

Otherwise, it just looks to me like you're taking revenge.

And feth me, I'm in agreement with R_squared. This has been a strange week for me.


We very rarely agree on anything, but in this instance I'm in full agreement with you.

"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




octarius.Lets krump da bugs!

The IRA got prison sentences in the troubles. Soldiers got medals.

Kote!
Kandosii sa ka'rte, vode an.
Coruscanta a'den mhi, vode an.
Bal kote,Darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad vode an.
Bal...
Motir ca'tra nau tracinya.
Gra'tua cuun hett su dralshy'a.
Aruetyc talyc runi'la trattok'a.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, vode an! 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

 Da krimson barun wrote:
The IRA got prison sentences in the troubles. Soldiers got medals.


That is a gross oversimplification and does no justice to the argument at all.

"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Da krimson barun wrote:
The IRA got prison sentences in the troubles. Soldiers got medals.


If soldiers and loyalists are suspected of murder or war crimes, I WANT them to be prosecuted.
I also want the IRA to be prosecuted too. Many of them were released early due to the GFA, I think that was wrong. Many more escaped justice. Some of them may even be in Government.

I have met you halfway and conceded that my "side" of the Troubles should be held accountable.
Will you also meet me halfway and accept that the Republicans should also be held accountable?

Or will you confirm my characterisation of your bias and motivations?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/22 00:52:29


 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Airbus plans UK job cuts amid fears of hard Brexit impact

Here we go again.

The UK has reached the point where companies are making strategic decisions based on the worst case scenario because there still is no clarity on the post-Brexit set-up and it's too late for them -- they can't wait any longer.

How did we manage to get ourselves into this mess?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Kilkrazy wrote:
How did we manage to get ourselves into this mess?


By voting yes for brexit. It was inevitable from that moment onward. Nothing anybody could do to prevent it as long as voting result would be taken as inviolable requirement. Now if goverment would have ignored it UK wouldn't be mess heading for self destruct but since they didn't...Well have fun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 06:31:45


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





A bizarre double think combination of the Tories hard core leavers believing there own hype about how easy things would be and at the same time being terrified that people would change there minds once they realized the truth. Leading them to invoke article 50 way to early and without any kind of plan.
   
Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator





Derry

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Everybody involved in The Troubles should have been held accountable for their crimes, but we supposedly chose to forgive and forget in the GFA in the interests of peace. Now we appear to be reneging on that agreement, but we're only holding one side accountable. What is just and equitable about that?

I fully agree that any British Army or loyalist paramilitary veterans suspected of murder should be investigated, prosecuted and convicted.
But can we please pursue the IRA with the same zeal?

Otherwise, it just looks to me like you're taking revenge, not seeking justice.

And feth me, I'm in agreement with R_squared. This has been a strange week for me.

r_squared wrote:
I never said that no one else should not co-operate, I just pointed out that republicans are not blameless and that there is a burning desire for justice on the British side too for the murders committed by republicans whatever "sub-sect" they belong too.

It boils my fething piss to see posts like this which are so one sided, so self righteous and so utterly dismissive of the pain that has been caused by this fething gak show. By all means demand justice, but be mindful of the fact that if you only focus on one side, you alienate and inflame the anger and resentment everywhere.

Republicans are just as guilty of atrocities in Northern Ireland, and after painful reflection I reconciled myself to the amnesty afforded by the GFA.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/nov/10/northernireland.northernireland1

We learned from the experience of reconciliation in South Africa how best to go forward, yet it seems British soldiers are not being afforded any amnesty, and are being hung out to dry by these sort of proceedings.

It fething pisses me off more than I can reasonably express, me and every single serviceman and woman I know. It's fething bollocks.


But republicans are being investigated, and there's more investigations concerning republican crimes during the troubles than security forces. The main reason the security forces cases are so high profile is that the nationalist and loyalist community accept that their people will be investigated and are in fact glad their actually being investigated instead of just lifting ransomers from the street and beating them to get some confessions, whereas the security forces either believe they shouldn't be investigated or have decided they're being victimised.

And the OTR letters received by republicans is not a get out of jail free card as so many like to push, it simply said that unless new evidence comes forward they won't be prosecuted as in many cases there is very little actual evidence.

If republicans have this so called amnesty, why was Gerry Adams arrested in 2014 relating to an event from 1972?

My Space Marine Blog

My CSM Blog
 Psienesis wrote:
That is because Calgar is a pimp. Not all SM heroes moonlight as pimps. Thus, their mastery of Pimp Hand is found wanting.

TemplarsCrusade01 Beasts Of War Spud Tate Chuffy1976
OPN Tristan Malone elstonation Hazard Syndome Vulkans Champion


 
   
Made in es
Inspiring Icon Bearer




 Kilkrazy wrote:
Airbus plans UK job cuts amid fears of hard Brexit impact

Here we go again.

The UK has reached the point where companies are making strategic decisions based on the worst case scenario because there still is no clarity on the post-Brexit set-up and it's too late for them -- they can't wait any longer.



It's curious on how many ways the UK-Airbus relationship mimics the wider UK-EU history.

The UK didn't really commit to Airbus until it was already off the ground, with Hawker-Siddeley doing some work, but not a full member. Much in the same way the UK formed EFTA instead of joining the EC.

Only with the A300 already a technical success (and a relatively commercial success as well) they joined as a full member.... to jump ship again with the A380 development problems and uncertainty over the A350.

   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The UK took decades to come to terms with the fact it is no longer a first class Great Power.

In fact the problem actually is that there are a lot of people who never made that mental transition, or else think it can be changed back.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




octarius.Lets krump da bugs!

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Da krimson barun wrote:
The IRA got prison sentences in the troubles. Soldiers got medals.


If soldiers and loyalists are suspected of murder or war crimes, I WANT them to be prosecuted.
I also want the IRA to be prosecuted too. Many of them were released early due to the GFA, I think that was wrong. Many more escaped justice. Some of them may even be in Government.

I have met you halfway and conceded that my "side" of the Troubles should be held accountable.
Will you also meet me halfway and accept that the Republicans should also be held accountable?

Or will you confirm my characterisation of your bias and motivations?
Indeed I firmly believe that people who intentionally killed civilians on both sides should serve time. I have no interest in British soldiers being dragged into the dock for stuff like getting Joe McCann: as Spence put it, he was a soldier of the Irish Republic and he died. It's the ones who did stuff like Enniskillen and kingsmills who I want in. The GFA gives only two years for a troubles conviction. I don't particularly care if the soldier gets his two years: I just want the judge to pronounce what he did as murder. I want the truth. I want the people who colluded to be called colluders. I want the people who threw bombs into pubs to be known as pub bombers.
That's the key thing many families have asked for. The truth. We can all jail eachother but nobody is coming back to life from it. We can at least give closure.

Kote!
Kandosii sa ka'rte, vode an.
Coruscanta a'den mhi, vode an.
Bal kote,Darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad vode an.
Bal...
Motir ca'tra nau tracinya.
Gra'tua cuun hett su dralshy'a.
Aruetyc talyc runi'la trattok'a.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, vode an! 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

 r_squared wrote:
 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
 r_squared wrote:
 gianlucafiorentini123 wrote:
 r_squared wrote:
When the IRA and other republican groups and members of the community start to cooperate into the investigations of the many murders committed by their members, then I think there will be a sense that justice is being sought in Northern Ireland.


Don't see many security force members coming forward about the crimes they committed? Are you not calling for loyalists to come forward either seeing as they killed more civilians than republicans actually did?

Republicans are being investigated over issues relating to the troubles (despite the lies May is pushing), it's just the army are getting a slightly disproportionate amount of investigations due to no one have been convicted for them at the time unlike those relating to paramilitaries.

http://www.irishnews.com/paywall/tsb/irishnews/irishnews/irishnews//news/northernirelandnews/2018/05/15/news/george-hamilton-psni-chief-constable-says-theresa-may-is-wrong-about-legacy-cases-1329992/content.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44054424


I didn't say come forward, I said co-operate. Republican's have never co-operated in investigations to bring justice to the families of victims such as the Omagh bombing where shoppers and children were murdered in cold blood. When I start to see progress here, then I may change my views on the idea of "justice" in Northern Ireland.

But thanks for bringing political violence and murder into the politics thread.


So republicans should co-operate but no one else? Your idea of justice would appear to be republicans first then everyone else, paramilitaries are seen as criminals so surely the army who were there to protect people should be held to a higher moral standard. My problems with the issue stems from this belief that because these men wore a uniform they should be exempt or put to the end of the queue for inquires.

The Omagh bomb was carried out by a sub sect within a sub sect of republicanism that has cut ties with the main branches, so people are unlikely t come forward because the only ones who know anything are the ones who actually planted the bombs.

It's politically related and affects the UK so why shouldn't it be brought up in the UK politics thread, legacy issues were brought up a few weeks a go on this thread.


I never said that no one else should not co-operate, I just pointed out that republicans are not blameless and that there is a burning desire for justice on the British side too for the murders committed by republicans whatever "sub-sect" they belong too.

It boils my fething piss to see posts like this which are so one sided, so self righteous and so utterly dismissive of the pain that has been caused by this fething gak show. By all means demand justice, but be mindful of the fact that if you only focus on one side, you alienate and inflame the anger and resentment everywhere.

Republicans are just as guilty of atrocities in Northern Ireland, and after painful reflection I reconciled myself to the amnesty afforded by the GFA.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/nov/10/northernireland.northernireland1

We learned from the experience of reconciliation in South Africa how best to go forward, yet it seems British soldiers are not being afforded any amnesty, and are being hung out to dry by these sort of proceedings.

It fething pisses me off more than I can reasonably express, me and every single serviceman and woman I know. It's fething bollocks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote:
Everyone should be held to account for any wrong-doings on both sides.


Absolutely, however, the GFA took the path shown by Nelson Mandela in South Africa and pursued a "Truth and reconcilliation" policy which allowed us to move forward.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconciliation_Commission_(South_Africa)

I remember very clearly that this was a chance for us to move past the horrors and violence of the past, and genuinely hoped that it would be lead to a long lasting peace. It seems that some people just want to drag us back into that quagmire.


Gerry Adams was questioned by the police pretty recently about this stuff. To say they are not pursuing Republicans or are only pursuing one side is blatantly untrue. We have known cases of British soldiers illegally massacring unarmed civillians which were in the first instance covered up and then when later uncovered no one is prosecuted. So I think it is frankly bs to say that there is a pro-republican bias. There are cases of serial killers walking free because they were informants in Unionist terrorist groups, unionist terrorist groups being armed by security forces and the whole lot.

I personally think it would be much healther to have a proper truth and reconcilliation process, but it is blocked by both sides for various reasons. I absolutely object to the idea that there is an unfair witch hunt of British service personnel though, as it is just not a realistic complaint. Cases are pursued on both sides, but it is inarguable that the British army has gotten off very lightly for it's terrible behaviour in Northern Ireland.

The real problem is the situation that created the Troubles (systematic oppression of Catholics aided and abetted by the police and militias) and the decision to send in the Army in the first place. Nationalists were British citizens too, but they have and are always treated like a foreign group inside the country and it really sticks in my craw to see the double standards applied to NI and the rest of the UK in terms of what was allowed to go on there.

I am not pro-IRA btw, would never in my fething life vote Sinn Fein. My dad is a Garda and one of his colleagues was shot by the bastards. He had to worry about being shot by them often enough, himself.

   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Da krimson barun wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Da krimson barun wrote:
The IRA got prison sentences in the troubles. Soldiers got medals.


If soldiers and loyalists are suspected of murder or war crimes, I WANT them to be prosecuted.
I also want the IRA to be prosecuted too. Many of them were released early due to the GFA, I think that was wrong. Many more escaped justice. Some of them may even be in Government.

I have met you halfway and conceded that my "side" of the Troubles should be held accountable.
Will you also meet me halfway and accept that the Republicans should also be held accountable?

Or will you confirm my characterisation of your bias and motivations?
Indeed I firmly believe that people who intentionally killed civilians on both sides should serve time. I have no interest in British soldiers being dragged into the dock for stuff like getting Joe McCann: as Spence put it, he was a soldier of the Irish Republic and he died. It's the ones who did stuff like Enniskillen and kingsmills who I want in. The GFA gives only two years for a troubles conviction. I don't particularly care if the soldier gets his two years: I just want the judge to pronounce what he did as murder. I want the truth. I want the people who colluded to be called colluders. I want the people who threw bombs into pubs to be known as pub bombers.
That's the key thing many families have asked for. The truth. We can all jail eachother but nobody is coming back to life from it. We can at least give closure.


Good, then we are both in agreement.
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

..keeps on giving..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44582831?ocid=socialflow_twitter


BMW joins Airbus in Brexit warning

The car giant BMW has followed plane maker Airbus in warning of the adverse consequences of Brexit.

BMW UK boss Ian Robertson told the BBC it needed clarity by the end of the summer. It makes the Mini and Rolls Royce in the UK.

Earlier, Airbus warned it could leave the UK if it exits the European Union single market and customs union without a transition deal.

The UK government says it is confident of getting a good deal for industry.

The customs union brings together the EU's 28 members in a duty-free area, in which they pay the same rate of duty on non-EU goods

Prime Minister Theresa May has ruled out staying in the customs union. The UK is due to leave the EU on 29 March 2019.

Mr Robertson said he needed to know what the government's preferred position is on customs and trade within months or his company - and the UK's - competitive position could be harmed.

"If we don't get clarity in the next couple of months we have to start making those contingency plans - which means investing money in systems that we might not need... which means making the UK less competitive than it is in a very competitive world right now," he said.

He said it was a decisive issue that ultimately could damage his industry.

Airbus, in its Brexit "risk assessment" published on Thursday, said if the UK left the EU next year without a deal - meaning it left both the single market and customs union immediately and without any agreed transition - it would "lead to severe disruption and interruption of UK production"



but remember when we leave the Eu we hold all the cards !

They said so.

They said Germany would fold really quickly as they'll want to keep selling us cars.


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Whatever anyone anti-Brexit says is purely political.

Whatever anyone pro-Brexit says is purely practical.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 reds8n wrote:


but remember when we leave the Eu we hold all the cards !

They said so.

They said Germany would fold really quickly as they'll want to keep selling us cars.



The 6pm news also said something similar. That basically the EU were playing hard ball now but at the last moment will cave and give us a good deal.

This of course being delusional thinking. There is little appetite in the EU countries to give the UK a soft time. I was talking to people from the northern Europe whilst in South Africa and the populace themselves don't want the EU to break their lines on any deal. There is neither the political or public will for this to happen.

And you have to question why they would do this? The high tech companies that rely on global and European supplies will be hit by even a softish Wrexit. Although the high tech companies might not leave immediately, they will be planning to move abroad as it avoids the extra Wrexit costs. The aerospace industry is reliant of both the customs union *and* freedom of movement. Take Rolls Royce - what I hadnt appreciated was that they make a loss on every engine they sell. The profit comes from the engineering support they subsequently provide. They are constantly moving high tech engineers back and forth. Any extra delays here results in extra costs that they can avoid somewhere in the EU.

We may still be able to make our cakes and biscuits but the highly advanced work will just leave.

There's also an interesting discussion on just in time systems here and why Wrexit is such a bad idea *even with* a Norway model.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/22 18:06:07


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Spoiler:






what planet are these people from ?

Why are they incapable of understanding pretty basic concepts ?


Spoiler:






.... well after all what's a mere 10% of your economy eh ?


..one could be nitpicky and point out that the fishing industry is about 1% of our economy -- dwarfed by the pet insurance industry for example IIRC -- and that was worth sailing up the Thames for and --illegally -- dumping dead fish in the river.





The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Luckily, Farage is due a £73,000 a year EU pension from his years of devoted service as an MEP.

He was particularly effective as the UK representative on the Fisheries Committee.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 reds8n wrote:
Spoiler:






what planet are these people from ?

Why are they incapable of understanding pretty basic concepts ?



I think it shows the type of people that got us into this mess and there will be a type of people out there that agree with them. Never going to accept their responsibility in this mess. It will always be someone else's fault. Of course given that we are in a capitalist market I wonder what exact proposals they have in mind to stop them? Guns perhaps?

Spoiler:






.... well after all what's a mere 10% of your economy eh ?


..one could be nitpicky and point out that the fishing industry is about 1% of our economy -- dwarfed by the pet insurance industry for example IIRC -- and that was worth sailing up the Thames for and --illegally -- dumping dead fish in the river.


He also thinks we should ignore the 80% service industry that will get hit. But to hell with the 90% if he gets his disaster Wrexit.

Still at least the Times has a credible answer for all those people put out of a job at Airbus...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs/the_papers

They can retrain as fruit pickers, because that is obviously what highly skilled engineers will want to do. It really is more fun...honest.

"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

As usual, the Remoaners are pointing out the serious problems they see, with facts and figures to back it up, and the Be-Leavers' response is, "You're only saying that because you're political. Everything will be marvellous because we say so."


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





I thought one of the things (wrongly) claimed by anti EU lot and Farage was that we didn’t make anything and leaving the EU would somehow fix this because manufacturing was vital to the UK?

 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob





UK

Interesting....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/22/broughton-the-town-in-fear-after-brexit-warning-by-airbus

A lot of people are brushing it off and saying it won’t happen, it’s just talk, but the reality is companies are folding before Brexit has even happened. I don’t know what is going to happen here,” said Lawless. “We just need to try and stick together and hope that the government will fight for us.”

Lawless voted leave in the EU referendum but said he did not regret his decision.“I was in two minds. I wanted to leave but obviously a lot of people were asking questions before about if we were to leave, how it would affect us,” he said.

“People were saying it would never affect us here because it’s too big a company. I’m still happy I voted for it but I thought we had more of a hold and a footing here in Broughton.”


A number of intellectual leaps here.

1. A vague hope that the Govt will fight for them and protect them from his decision. Good luck with that sunshine.

2. A lack of regret for making a decision that will directly impoverish him, his colleagues, their families and the whole community.

3. Happy to vote for something that will almost certainly destroy his livelihood and that of many thousands of people throughout the country because he believed that he'd be "alright jack". But, even now seeing that it's going to happen, still thinks he made the right decision.

I think I may avoid flying on any aircraft contributed to by this intellectual stunner. What a pillock.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Steve steveson wrote:
I thought one of the things (wrongly) claimed by anti EU lot and Farage was that we didn’t make anything and leaving the EU would somehow fix this because manufacturing was vital to the UK?


I've worked on the basic premise that anything Nigel Farage says, thinks or proposes is utter worthless bollocks, and that any normal, thinking individual should automatically hold the opposite view just to be on the safe side.

Saves time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/23 09:01:59


"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Steve steveson wrote:
I thought one of the things (wrongly) claimed by anti EU lot and Farage was that we didn’t make anything and leaving the EU would somehow fix this because manufacturing was vital to the UK?


This would be called a lie...unfortunately it managed to permeate the argument because too many people just didn't question the basic fact that we are between the 8th - 12th largest manufacturing country in the world with a heavy focus on high tech industries that rely on free movement of people and trade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 r_squared wrote:


3. Happy to vote for something that will almost certainly destroy his livelihood and that of many thousands of people throughout the country because he believed that he'd be "alright jack". But, even now seeing that it's going to happen, still thinks he made the right decision.

I think I may avoid flying on any aircraft contributed to by this intellectual stunner. What a pillock.


Not everyone builds a plane needs to be that bright. In fact I can imagine a lot of the assembly line stuff is likely really boring an tedious (though I would have hoped that might have given people a bit more time to think things over).

In the end it is cogitative dissonance. The change of tact in the conversation is that they are already lining someone else up for the blame and not looking at their own role in the fiasco.

---------------------------------

I see both Boris and Davis are obnoxiouly blazing away again (just happens to be that a large march is happening on Wrexit. Apparently Davis thinks it will be fantastic to leave the EU. Probably for him. Of course those people who will be losing their jobs well he doesn't care about.

Also the Scum is talking about Boris's comment on bog rolls. For once they are correct....
.
.
.
Boris does indeed talk sh*t!





This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/23 09:36:08


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

2016 : “Brexit will provide more opportunities for business”

easy and endless trade deals and we'll all be better off.

2018

Spoiler:






https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/19/british-fruit-growers-short-of-pickers-farming?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard


Strawberry and other soft fruit farmers are warning of potential shortages because they are struggling to find enough workers to pick fruit.

The British Summer Fruits (BSF) trade body said its members were 10% to 15% short of labour and expect to be more than 30% short by the autumn as the government drags its feet on a seasonal agricultural workers scheme.

Nick Marston, the BSF chairman, said: “The industry is now threatened by lack of government action with regard to seasonal labour.”

He said more than three-quarters of British berry-growers were already scaling back production and trimming investment plans amid fears that fruit would be left rotting in the fields.

“Any fall in home-grown production not only increases our dependence on imported fruit but will inevitably lead to significant price rises,” Marston said.

Farmers have already raised the pay of pickers to more than £10 an hour to try to attract EU workers after the fall of the pound against the euro reduced the value of their take-home pay.

But they are also suffering labour shortages caused by a fall in the number of Romanian and Bulgarian workers looking for work abroad because they now have better job prospects at home.

Other EU countries, such as Germany, have tackled the problem with visa schemes that enable Ukrainians, Moldovans and other non-EU nationals to do seasonal work.

But Marston said the British government had not fulfilled its promise to do the same in the short term and there was still no clarity on a visa system for EU workers after Brexit.

“While this is not an issue caused directly by Brexit, solutions are being hamstrung by Brexit and the government’s inability to make firm decisions,” he said.

Marston said he believed progress was being blocked by No 10. “We urge the prime minister to do what she knows is the right thing,” he said.



.. well so much for the jam exports that were going to save the country.

I'm sure any minute though those bold patriots who voted for this garbage will roll up their sleeves and go forth and help out here.


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 reds8n wrote:
2016 : “Brexit will provide more opportunities for business”

easy and endless trade deals and we'll all be better off.

2018

Spoiler:







Boris is a gak, talks gak and would gak over his own grandmother if he thought it would give him more power. Hence the reality that he doesn't care about anything other than himself.

Please don't bypass the language filter like this.
This is a good review of who Boris really is.





https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/19/british-fruit-growers-short-of-pickers-farming?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

.. well so much for the jam exports that were going to save the country.

I'm sure any minute though those bold patriots who voted for this garbage will roll up their sleeves and go forth and help out here.



I'm wondering just how long it will now be until the Tories start invoking forced labour on any group that they think can be exploited for their own gains on the basis of making them more 'patriotic'.

People like the MP Victoria Atkins who thinks it is entirely reasonable that a family of criminal; that have committed no crimes themselves should be kicked out of their Council housing.

I repeat she is talking about people that have not committed *any* crime, could be their children, elderly grandparents. People that are already on the lowest income scales because they are in Council Housing should be thrown onto the street for simply being associated as a blood relative to a criminal. No prosecution, no court case, just guilt by association. No wonder the Tories want to get out of the ECJ and ECHR.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jun/23/gangs-families-should-lose-council-homes-urges-minister

and I am sure the EU has taken note of these comments by Rees Mogg. That whatever deal is made there are some (and likely to be next leaders of the Tory party) are happy to throw under a bus.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-no-deal-theresa-amy-tory-conservatives-eu-withdrawal-bill-vote-a8411226.html

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/23 10:51:51


"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V

I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!

"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

What other countries are there that practice guilt and punishment by familial relationship?

Oh that's right... North Korea.

Is a post-Brexit Tory party an oxymoron?

An interesting piece in The Guardina looking at the Tory Party's possible lack of a future.

It has been obvious for years that the referendum and the mess over Brexit was caused by Conservative party leaders trying to avoid their party splitting apart or lose too many votes to UKIP (which turns out largely to have been a right-wing party rather than an anti-EU party with broad support.)

It's still going on now, that's why May has these weekly crises of her own ministers contradicting her and repudiating official policy.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in au
Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Melbourne

https://www.facebook.com/brexitballs/videos/1971887973121202/

The EU trying very hard to politely explain that it’s “sign up to their rules or GTFO”, in case there’s any Brexiters still occupying a space other than reality.

Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch."
Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!" 
   
 
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