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Some of this stuff looks interesting, but for my alternate/scifi WWII stuff I'd rather go for DUST...

I was hoping to use them for sudo-Command and Conquer factions (Dust would work nicely for Red Alert though). I'd say they would have a pretty good market for what they are making, if they could actually make it...

It's sort of sad Defiance is still skirting the edges of miniature vapourware. They've gotten some things out but they keep talking about the future without dealing with the present.

And for them to be going on two years with exactly that many kits to speak of... man I wish this company would just make it. Yeah, I like the marines, call me crazy.

Now it's three sets in two years. Guess what finally arrived on Friday?

Yup, the Germans. I assembled a few, took some pictures, and now here are my thoughts.

The kit turned out pretty well, all things considered. Others have have mentioned getting pieces with lots of air bubbles, guns with snapped off barrels, irreversible warping, etc, but mine turned out pretty well. One of the carbines was missing its barrel (and just the very tip of the barrel), the bonus figure had an air bubbled on the underside of his machinegun, and another on his knee, and there were air bubbles on the underside of the torsos and the figures' feet but the last aren't much of a problem since those will be glued to other things anyway so won't normally be visible. The detail was good and they were better than the pre-production figures I got with my Bugs months ago.

The biggest problem with the minis themselves is flash -- there was a lot of it on the arms, though it cleaned up very well; Troll Forge plastic carves easily so cleaned up the figures is a snap. One of the missile launchers -- the one I picked when assembling my gruppe -- had enough flash to cause problems with the detail on the weapon sight. Several of the weapon barrels were warped, but I was able to straighten them out with some hot water and about a minute of work.

However, I should mention that these guys are small -- smaller than the DG Marines, enough so that you'll notice with a casual glance. I'm not especially happy about this; the Germans are supposed to be wearing heavy armor but instead they look like slight teenagers next to the more lightly-armored Marines. I'm going to mix-and-match pieces from the two sets to see how well they work together, but a side-by-side comparison scale-wise leaves me disappointed. Apparently, mold-shrinkage is an issue DG didn't compensate for when designing these guys.

So, anywho, have some pictures:




Loose weapons. The kit comes with two sets of these -- a carbine, grenade launcher, rifle, machinegun, and missile launcher (the latter two I'd already detached).



Weapon arms. The flash looks ugly, but cleans up very well.



The kit comes with three casualty figures.



The prone machinegunner looks good, but mine came missing his right arm! I've already contacted Defiance Games and they should be sending my a replacement.



Bases - the set comes with enough for all figures. They have a deck-plate texture and are very slightly smaller than the ones that came with the Marines. Unlike the Bug bases, these had no real flaws aside from a very slightly, barely noticeable concavity in the center.




A before and after of a warped machinegun barrel. Hot water and a minute's effort straightened it out. A Defiance rep admitted to be that they aren't really happy with the machineguns -- the barrels are far too thin. Every machinegun barrle in the set was similarly warped.



Male and female heads. The group on the top looks like a reject that was accidentally packed. The detail on them is pretty good, though not fantastic. The set also includes 20 helmeted heads -- more than enough for all the troops.



The first three of the seven figures I assembled. They go together fairly well with super glue, but, since the plastic is NOT polystyrene, polystyrene glue will not work with these.
For the record, the squad leader's arm came off while i was transporting these home and I didn't notice it until I started taking pictures.



The second group.


And, to finish this up, a few size comparisons:



A Defiance German and a Warlord Games Nazi. There is something rather ironic about this picture, I think.



With a Mantic Orc and an EM-4 Trooper



With a Wargames Factory Shock Trooper.



With one of the pre-production figures (on the right). Also, a cat in the background being annoying.



And, side-by-side with a UAMC Marine.

Much better detail than the UAMC marines, but it's probably too little too late at this point. I know I wouldn't order a set unless I saw it in my shop in person. Unless these guys came with a free coupon for a sexy stripper and a couple of bars of gold, I'd imagine there's no way they're turning around the negative reputation they've built over these past few months.

After getting burned on shipping time 3 out of 3 times, I would imagine most customers are EXTREMELY gunshy about ordering right now, if they even do so at all.

On an unrelated not, if you hadn't had the shipping delays, would you have considered this kit "worth" the money? Like if you had bought this in your local store right off the shelf, would you be happy or angry? The kits seem to have a fair amount of detail apart from the odd miscasts here and there. The last pic is probably the best example of that. Aside from the scale difference, the quality on the germans is a pretty big step up from the UAMC.

Still wouldn't mind a box just to get access to the guns. Really do like the rifles and carbines they made, as well as the GL. The heads aren't bad either.

Just wished they would have got their act together sooner. I am only likely to buy some through a 3rd party, not directly from them.

Am I satisfied . . .

Honestly, kinda.

They are a perfectly serviceable set with enough options, but that's it. Their poses are static; aside from a couple pairs of crouching legs (I would have preferred more) all of their stances are some variation on "standing." There aren't any grievous errors in casting, but I don't really know if that's because earlier problems were just learning issues or because every good piece rests upon a dozen miscasts (which might explain why the shipping is so slow). It means that, if I bought a second box, I don't know what I'd be getting. Further, the finished minis just don't do the concept art justice. They're not bad, but not amazing, either. Just kinda disappointing.


Then again, honestly I think they're about the same as most other human sci-fi troopers I've seen, none of which especially excite me these days. I keep look at them and comparing them to my Warlord Germans which, despite having some flaws, remain some of the most interesting, dynamic minis I've every assembled. They look like real soldiers -- all in movement, keeping their heads down, firing off snap shots, etc. The price is good, too -- for the same price as the Defiance Germans you get more minis, and they look more appealing. If I assembled a couple dozen of these guys they'd basically look the same -- static. Worst of all, they wouldn't look anything like real soldiers in combat.

But that's more of a personal taste thing.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Much better detail than the UAMC marines, but it's probably too little too late at this point.

I do not think so. The only people they may have pissed off are ones who preordered. However, these people also probably knew that the company did not release stuff on time.

 spaceelf wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Much better detail than the UAMC marines, but it's probably too little too late at this point.

I do not think so. The only people they may have pissed off are ones who preordered. However, these people also probably knew that the company did not release stuff on time.

So moral of the story is that wait 6-8 months when a product goes on pre order, and then buy it? I do enjoy business integrity

At least Avatars of War told you immediately you wouldn't get your product until a few months have past

If Defiance Games can actually manage to get themselves in gear and ship stuff, they should be fine and, in a years' time, I doubt anyone will even care about all the delays. If.

I'll put up $50 that says they have similar problems with their next releases.

If I see the Germans in my FLGS, I'll almost certainly pick them up. However, with all the problems people have been having, I don't know if I'd run out and order them online any time soon.

Really, I'd love to see Defiance follow up on their promise of Heavy Weapons for the USMC and the Marines. I think that will add a lot of versatility to the range, and provide the 40k-compatibility that might boost sales.

What the heck is up with the super thin waists?




A bad design choice that makes no sense, doesn't contribute to "realism" and only draws attention to the massive crotch codpiece armor that imbalances the look of the figure. I would consider cutting the waist out and dropping the figure 2mm, but they're already shorter than the troops they are supposed to accompany! Not that many folks are necessarily looking to play the Defiance rules/universe, but consistency should be maintained so that bits can be swapped across a range.

Sorry, but it just isn't good enough. The detail is better than the Marines and the weapons are better, but with the waists, style, size and warped barrels, this doesn't really seem to be much of an improvement. Defiance should thank their lucky stars that these are coming out before the Dreamforge troopers, because those figs set a new standard for indie company plastic figs, and if these are the two choices for pseudo-germans in sci-fi body armor, it's pretty clear who comes out ahead.

I consider it a bad sign when someone can't get the scale consistent inside of a single product line. I don't know what to say about them not matching their marines.

Tiny = sucks when you already have a collection 28mm that the marines fit with and these won't.

Thanks to Xeno for the unboxing. Unfortunately, it was the last nail in the coffin for me. With such serious casting issues, incorrect proportions, inconsistent scale, and soft details, I can't reasonably buy in. It's a shame, because six months ago, I was really looking forward to these.

Defiance could've tapped a big market. "hard" sci fi troops are hard to find (good ones at least) in plastic. Had this line taken off, it would have been awesome. And while the Dreamforge stormtroopers are awesome, they're not hard sci fi. These guys are panzergrenadiers in space. Dreamforge is stormtroopers with a german twist in space. I love the dreamforge figures, but I still think the panzergrenadiers fil an untapped niche. Thats why everyone was so hyped, becaus they WEREN'T just WWII germans in space.

The problem is, even if only the people who preordered are angry, thats still bad press. Doubly so considering they were supposed to be the first to get it, before stores, and the product is STILL months late. When some guy who's never heard of these before pops up and says "hey these are cool, why haven't I heard of these?" a lot of people will pop in and voice their disapproval of the line. Heck, we've been getting that already before some kits have even arrived on people's doorsteps. If they recover from this, I will be very surprised.

I still want to see this line get realized and I definitely hope Defiance games can get itself back on track. Unfortunately, what I hope will happen and what I believe will happen are two very different things.

Eh, I could care less about lateness, delivery dates, etc. Unfortuntately it's to the point now where I expect that from indie wargame companies. I look at the product, price, and use and make my judgement based on that.

"The problem is" that the figures are sub-par.

I can't tell from the pictures, but are there identifiably female heads thrown in the mix? It must be the mold release, but they look either shiny or bumpy, the heads.

I guess Black Widows it will be...

It looks like the cheap brittle resin that Ramshackle and old Warzone, correct?

 Kroothawk wrote:
It looks like the cheap brittle resin that Ramshackle and old Warzone, correct?

It looks similar, but I don't think they are the same. Ratner, IIRC, they are actually supposed to be a resin with similarities to Mantic restic. A bit more plasticy. I'd like to hear more from those who have used it though.

Also. which Warzone figs are you referring too? I don't recall any Warzone figs in resin.

Man, those look terrible. Glad I didn't buy into them.

Warzone had the restic troops that came with the 2nd edition box. Also, their larger vehicles and creatures were made of a more traditional resin.

 Gitkikka wrote:
Man, those look terrible. Glad I didn't buy into them.

Warzone had the restic troops that came with the 2nd edition box. Also, their larger vehicles and creatures were made of a more traditional resin.

The Warzone troops weren't restic or resin. They were just a harder plastic than normal, (not polystyrene) Not hard to assemble, you just needed super glue.

I do remember the vehicles, but as you say they were a traditional resin.

Warzone's plastics was ABS, I believe. High end plastic cement would work on them.

It's Troll Forged plastic, so I am thinking superglue is the way to go.

Those look terrible. With all the problems they've been having with their material why don't they use resin or metal? I'd prefer that over stuff that looks melty.

Also what is up with the scale? Not a good start if they are supposed ot be in the same line.

It's not the material, it's the (lack of) skill of the casters, and an unwillingness to reject failed castings (presumably as they are getting insufficient good ones)

If you look at the images on the Red Box Games thread you'll see what this stuff can look like when used as intended

I also suspect they've sculpted a lot of the guns barrels etc too thin for whatever the material they use (trollcast will look bendy, resin or metal will end up snapping)

Or they're taking them out of the mold too quickly without letting them cool (and getting the bendiness).

 judgedoug wrote:
Or they're taking them out of the mold too quickly without letting them cool (and getting the bendiness).

Looks like the Part A and Part B of the resin were not completely mixed. I have had that happen a few times. It usually happens if Part A hits the side of the mixing cup near the pouring spout. These should never have left the shop... ever.

 Xeno wrote:
Am I satisfied . . .

And that's from Defiance Defence Force #1, ooof!