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No, you're probably just used to GW sculpts that haven't got a neck.

Defiance minis -- like the WGF minis sculpted by the same artist -- have rounded neck stumps that are one part useful since you get position them as needed and one part a pain in the butt because you have to carve them to get them right. With the Germans, it's also useful to shave them a bit since the neck area has a gorget and so the head shouldn't rise too high.

 SkaerKrow wrote:

Shepherd23 wrote:

 SkaerKrow wrote:
Quite the disappointment, compounded by the fact the Dreamforge is releasing a very similar kit that is exponentially better than this one.

I don't really see the similarity with these minis and the dream forge stuff. Other than gas masked helmet heads. Yes they are both German inspired, but that really is were the similarity ends.

That said, I like these and will probably use them. I love the Dreamforge minis and will most definitely use them. I will just not be able to use them together probably, Between these guys being on the short side and the Dreamforge stuff running on the tall side, I am thinking that it will be to apparent on the table top.

You don't see the similarity between two German inspired kits of Sci-Fi soldiers in full combat armor with enclosed, masked helmets? The premise is damned near identical, the difference is mainly chalked up to quality and execution. I'm glad that you like them, but they are objectively of lower sculpting quality than the very similar kit from Dreamforge.

Except one looks like german starwars stormtroopers, and the other looks like near future soldiers but with iconic german helmets (though possibly badly executed it's true).

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 SkaerKrow wrote:

Shepherd23 wrote:

 SkaerKrow wrote:
Quite the disappointment, compounded by the fact the Dreamforge is releasing a very similar kit that is exponentially better than this one.

I don't really see the similarity with these minis and the dream forge stuff. Other than gas masked helmet heads. Yes they are both German inspired, but that really is were the similarity ends.

That said, I like these and will probably use them. I love the Dreamforge minis and will most definitely use them. I will just not be able to use them together probably, Between these guys being on the short side and the Dreamforge stuff running on the tall side, I am thinking that it will be to apparent on the table top.

You don't see the similarity between two German inspired kits of Sci-Fi soldiers in full combat armor with enclosed, masked helmets? The premise is damned near identical, the difference is mainly chalked up to quality and execution. I'm glad that you like them, but they are objectively of lower sculpting quality than the very similar kit from Dreamforge.

Except one looks like german starwars stormtroopers, and the other looks like near future soldiers but with iconic german helmets (though possibly badly executed it's true).

This is what I mean. They are similarly inspired, but they most definitely do not look the same. Dreamforge is wearing full body plate armor like a stormtrooper or medieval knight, DF Germans have clothing with some armor plate to protect vital areas. If usable together you could maybe use Dreamforge for GW Storm troops or elites and the DF for regular guard, I thought about this as a way to get back into playing 40K affordably, but with the DF Germans being kinda short and the Dreamforge Guys being taller than average, it would look way off. Saying these guys look the same is like saying cadians and stormtroopers look the same.

 SkaerKrow wrote:
Quite the disappointment, compounded by the fact the Dreamforge is releasing a very similar kit that is exponentially better than this one.

"Exponentially" overstates it IMO, but I do think Defiance was late to the market here. While the Defiance Panzergrenadiers' concept and general armor design is much better than Dreamforge's Eisenkern Stormtroopers, which are rather stale Jin-Roh: Wolf Brigade knockoffs, Dreamforge has done a much better job in terms of sculpt quality and level of posability. Dreamforge is close to reaching GW's level of detail (though they are still far behind in terms of sprue design) and has actually surpassed some of the older GW kits, while Defiance, like WGF, continues to produce sculpts that suffer from soft detail in many places. This is especially damaging because Defiance's superior designs require good detail in many positions:



Unfortunately much of the straps and little detail pieces on the armor shown in this (excellent) concept piece don't seem to come out in the finished model. Further, as with their USMC (or whatever they changed the name to), Defiance has not been successful in their helmet design. They have again come out with excellent alternate cap heads which mitigate this to a large degree, but the "default" helmets look extremely goofy and out of scale.

On the plus side, Defiance's Panzergrenadiers are much better scaled for use with WH40k miniatures (which, let's be real, is the primary market for these products) than Dreamforge's Eisenkern Stormtroopers. The Panzergrenadiers are also cheaper, at 30 USD for 20 instead of 20 USD for 10 figures. However, their sculpting quality and posability seems inferior (weapons aside). Since these models are very similar it will be interesting to see which does better. Had Defiance successfully released their models in keeping with the initial schedule (and had since released multiple compatible kits to expand their line), I think they would be very well-positioned against Dreamforge. As it stands, not so much.

Defiance has cheaper, more original, and better-scaled miniatures, but Dreamforge's sculpt quality is much better (weapons aside) and they don't seem to be experiencing the same production and logistical issues that Defiance is. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, but I anticipate Dreamforge will likely be more successful in this arena.

Both Defiance and Dreamforge of course blow Wargames Factory out of the water, but that was pretty much a given at this point.

I disagree with the last line there; Wargames Factory's War of Spanish Succession kits are absolutely fantastic, with a gajillion options to basically allow you to make any country's troops for dirt cheap.

I agree with Kingsley statement about the comparisons between these two sets. One thing I have to add regarding the quality of the Dreamforge set...it is easier to get a crisp model when the entire thing is smooth armor plates vs a model that has detail over every square mm. It is much easier to make poses as well. Everything that Dreamforge did with this kit makes it easier to produce a decent looking model as long as you like the smooth appearance.

The defiance models are just the opposite. Both of their sets (marines and Germans) have detail everywhere. Said detail may be soft, but it exists none the less. They tried to make a model that had significant visual interest before paint was even applied that would enhance the total model after painting.

Dreamforge made a model that will be visually interesting after a skilled painter has applied his talents, much like a GW space marine. Both may be solid kits, but really lack visual stimulation without a great paint job. An average paint job won't make these kits pop due to the lack of details.

Of course, all of this is just my opinion, but I do believe that there is truth in it. I am not trying to downgrade the digital artists ability when referring to the Dreamforge stuff. He/she/it/them/hive are very talented and deserve the pat on the back with these kits. When they are released, I want a mule so bad it hurts. I am curious to see what they can do with more detailed models than these kits and the giant robot they have as well. If they can produce a more detailed range of kits with the quality that they seem to have, they will
Be a major contender in this market.

 Kingsley wrote:

Unfortunately much of the straps and little detail pieces on the armor shown in this (excellent) concept piece don't seem to come out in the finished model.

Because they weren't there in the sculpt. That concept art was never translated with any faithfulness to a 3D sculpt.
All Defiance has proven so far is that they can hire a talented illustrator. They don't seem capable of acknowledging their limitations at any level of their business.

I will admit, I am still making the Marines I got. they showed up last Summer, just over 100 of them, plus the Restic Gunny mini.

I was feeling good things for the Defiance band, but of late, the forums are down, no products updates, no updates of late I have see of the issues for the materials, (They should have stayed with the plastic) I do worry as they really needed to get themselves going off the ground, and selling more of the UAMC minis that were proven, and heck, once you make therm, the details is still not that bad, I just have to paint them now. I still have 24 left to build. I felt the possibilities would have been good.

Sadly, it looks grim for Defiance Games. Based on another post, it seems they are beset with many issues, too many experiments with materials before they got truly off the ground. Too many plans for making core forces before these issues are settled, too many over hopeful projections without hard figures to back said projections. Plenty of hurdles to overcome for sure, but they should stop, look at the most critical issues, and work on them instead of running around trying to do new things before they hammer out the problems.

Get back to p0lastic, sure it means sprues, but product sold will generate the revenue needed for future materials side projects li8ke restic as we saw so many issues. detailed minis worked out but most important, getting those minis out to those that ordered, else they will be bled dry if they have not been already by paypal etc disputes for money back.

From my perspective, it seemed that Defiance tried to take on too much too soon. Smaller steps so that problems could have been spotted and corrected faster would also have helped teethe them better so that they could have kept the Marines and gunny orders filled. THEN the bugs, and Germans could have been easier to get out as plastics and made folks less cranky. Many are upset that they have apparently not gotten the teething issues worked out, so miscasts, malforms exist, Germans so much shorter than their UAMC contemporaries, etc. Hardsuits had folks fired up, now not so much.

The problems, delays, drawbacks, and jumping ahead with announcements before product is truly ready for distribution has made folks edgy. I was there when they lost control of WGF way back, I got my 100 or so great coats before the similar problems of lack of distribution. Got e-mails from Tony himself, so I know the guy really does care, and means well, I think he just happens to let excitement override his sensibilities, and he should allow input from the team and customers help temper that enthusiasm so that a more realistic approach is taken by Defiance to avoid them going belly up

I seem to manage to get stuff before the troubles hit,,,well except the Bucky Balls fiasco.I am having to get my money back or the order filled for that.

But I truly hope that the Defiance Games team gets things ironed out and back on track so that they can get back in the "Game" of minis making and selling.

 plastictrees wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Unfortunately much of the straps and little detail pieces on the armor shown in this (excellent) concept piece don't seem to come out in the finished model.

Because they weren't there in the sculpt. That concept art was never translated with any faithfulness to a 3D sculpt.
All Defiance has proven so far is that they can hire a talented illustrator. They don't seem capable of acknowledging their limitations at any level of their business.

Actually, earlier Defiance Games renders seem to indicate that much of that detail was there:



Similarly, this test model posted earlier in the preproduction phase looks to have much better detail than the finished products people have been receiving:

 shasolenzabi wrote:
(They should have stayed with the plastic)

I think the problem was that they claimed "hard plastic takes too long!" so they tried to go for restic or trollcast or whatever we're calling it these days to get their products out

Turns out though their boneheaded business practices made it just as long if not longer to make/distribute these miniatures and also make them once again look silly if the details on their dealings with troll forge are accurate

And then theres the warping problem, and that it is slightly more expensive

 kenshin620 wrote:

 shasolenzabi wrote:
(They should have stayed with the plastic)

I think the problem was that they claimed "hard plastic takes too long!" so they tried to go for restic or trollcast or whatever we're calling it these days to get their products out

Turns out though their boneheaded business practices made it just as long if not longer to make/distribute these miniatures and also make them once again look silly if the details on their dealings with troll forge are accurate

And then theres the warping problem, and that it is slightly more expensive

They wanted to have a faster process, but they forgot the old adage "slow but steady wins the race" and "Haste makes waste" they managed to get the UAMC Out fairly quick considering the issues they had as evinced by my receipt of over 100 of those marines, plus the Gunny. Once they said they were making the new stuff, the bugs and Panzergrenadiers came to a halt. sadly.

To be fair, it took like 8 months of delays to get the UAMC figs out. I have a box of them, and I'm unsure why people think the detail is soft. They're excellent.

I'm just miffed I won't be getting heavy weapons for them (or if they do make them it'll be like 5 years from now). I have complete 28mm forces for near-future militaries for Russians, Germans, French, and was gonna use the UAMC figs for something (maybe some generic UN), but I need some heavy weapons support, mortars, etc.

SO in everyone's opinion, if the company were to endure, and it still might, would you rather they bang out more basic forces, or flesh out the existing three ranges?

Please, don't get me started on the Swamp Worms. They are nice as a scenario beast, but a full force of limp male parts isn't a majority of people's cup of tea, I would imagine.

I would love to get a UAMC set with mortars, 50cal/12.7mm machine gun on bipod/tripod, man-portable anti-tank rocket or missile launchers, and bits for the existing kit (radios, medipacks, laptops, etc).

But, but, but what about the projected Papal forces?

Yes, In the 23rd century, Paypal has now become a military force to be reckoned with!

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
SO in everyone's opinion, if the company were to endure, and it still might, would you rather they bang out more basic forces, or flesh out the existing three ranges?

Please, don't get me started on the Swamp Worms. They are nice as a scenario beast, but a full force of limp male parts isn't a majority of people's cup of tea, I would imagine.

I would just like it if all the models on the hilariously optimistic roadmap actually came out (so their hardsuits, females, and heavy weapons)

reposting it for the 100th time just because




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
But, but, but what about the projected Papal forces?

Yes, In the 23rd century, Papal has now become a military force to be reckoned with!

Didnt Infinity already sort of did that with some of the Pan Oceania miniatures?

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
But, but, but what about the projected Papal forces?

Yes, In the 23rd century, Paypal has now become a military force to be reckoned with!

Please tell me you're joking.

Kenshin, to be fair, they never posted a year on that roadmap...

 King Pariah wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
But, but, but what about the projected Papal forces?

Yes, In the 23rd century, Paypal has now become a military force to be reckoned with!

Please tell me you're joking.

It's not like it would be worse than the catholic nun army that is SoB. Besides, the pope has used swiss mercenaries for the last 500 years, so it's possible that they would just be some sort of Merc type faction.

July, when I got my Marines

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
SO in everyone's opinion, if the company were to endure, and it still might, would you rather they bang out more basic forces, or flesh out the existing three ranges?

Please, don't get me started on the Swamp Worms. They are nice as a scenario beast, but a full force of limp male parts isn't a majority of people's cup of tea, I would imagine.

I would prefer to see a wider selection of basic forces to see what sticks, and then go back. I like the marines, and still plan to buy the bugs and Germans...when they're available from the War Store. I've converted my uamc to have support weapons, and plan to use treaded drones for HW and so on, so deepness in the range is less of an issue for me. But then, I'm using them as near-future SGC forces...

Oh and my gunny just arrived today! I saw the package and thought Mongoose had finally gotten me my Troggie, but it was a blast from even farther in the past. I had given up all hope on him. Now, I'm somewhat optimistic that Tony Reidy's replacement is getting the company back on track.


Oh, and I would have loved to have bought some swamp worms, which is why I went in on the Assimilation Host KS.

ok so what is the part I missed with the Tony Reidy "replacement" thing. Did he get removed or did they get rid of Howard?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
ok so what is the part I missed with the Tony Reidy "replacement" thing. Did he get removed or did they get rid of Howard?

Nah, it's just a joke. But seeing what getting rid of Tony did for Wargames Factory...

And considering dreamforge is going to be selling their models through WGF....

There's no reason to stick with Defiance unless you like disappointment..

 agnosto wrote:
And considering dreamforge is going to be selling their models through WGF....

There's no reason to stick with Defiance unless you like disappointment..

Or you would like something that doesn't look like they would say "mein Herr, these are not the droids we are looking for". That said, Defiance isn't managing to bring forth much other than disappointment.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
And considering dreamforge is going to be selling their models through WGF....

There's no reason to stick with Defiance unless you like disappointment..

Or you would like something that doesn't look like they would say "mein Herr, these are not the droids we are looking for". That said, Defiance isn't managing to bring forth much other than disappointment.

lol

Bob, I didn't say they couldn't serve their purpose, but from a fledgling company to put out such a specialized kit at the same time as disucssing all the options entertained on the road map, plus a chinese kit, papal kit, some scouting bike units, fleshing out the bugs, the norwegian lady-mechs... gah!

I think they could have kept that as a lower priority and, say, bang out more bugs with the time they spent on that.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Bob, I didn't say they couldn't serve their purpose, but from a fledgling company to put out such a specialized kit at the same time as disucssing all the options entertained on the road map, plus a chinese kit, papal kit, some scouting bike units, fleshing out the bugs, the norwegian lady-mechs... gah!

I think they could have kept that as a lower priority and, say, bang out more bugs with the time they spent on that.

To be honest, I got the impression that the swamp worms were more of an act of desperation than anything else.

Tony: Ed, you gotta help me! This plastic thing isn't working at all. At this rate, we won't even get the Germans out until 2013! You gotta sell me your Trollcast machines.

Ed: Ok, but there's a steep lear--

Tony: I'm really overwhelmed, Ed. My boys are caught in a vice here! Do you have any finished sculpts that you could sell me? Anything at all?

Ed: Well, I was working on some grubs for my--

Tony: I'll take them! They look alien, right?

Ed: Yes, but about that Trollcast, it might be faster to--

Tony: No time to chat! I'm sending a cheque!

I still say that once the issues with the marine sprues were worked, as evidenced by my marine order being fulfilled in a fairly timely manner. Once they had that down, they should have gone and stayed with it, as it had proven effective.

Sadly, for those waiting for bugs and german troops saw, instead a jump to other materials/tech that had more teething issues which has delayed the production/output past the projection till 2013 if that.

had they simply stayed with the plastics, bugs and possibly germans orders would have been filled by no later than say, October 2012.

they simply needed to stick with what was finally working, not jump at new shiny toys quality unknown.

Defiance needs to get back on track, and stay there, establish a new and good reputation in making minis as well as being able to deliver their goods. new materials can be tried once they have enough income to establish a r-n-d dept to try and test new materials before ditching established materials and methods.