Defiance games. Plastic (resin) SCI FI manufacturer: chinese

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Mathieu Raymond**

For a limited time - we have a pre-release special on the new hard plastic shipping containers! 50 total containers (25 sets) for $499 with free worldwide shipping!

Check them out here!
http://defiancegames.com/index.php/shop#!/~/category/id=5895469&offset=0&sort=normal

If anyone feels lucky...

**Barzam**

*checks calendar* Today isn't April 1st. What is this ridiculousness.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Because their previous releases went so well, why not give them more money sight unseen?

**Dr Mathias**

I have some of those containers a few feet from me, they do exist. I bought them direct from Rust Forge. Buyers can only hope that DG has a bunch of them on hand.

I'm not sure if $499 is worth spending on just shipping containers... I suppose it is if you really do want fifty of the things. It would be pretty cool to see on the table.

Seemed like $12.99 per container was okay at the time. I bought four of them to see how they measure up. I haven't built them yet but my first impression is favorable.

ETA: Based off the store descrip, I don't think DG has a large quantity in hand yet. "Shipping week of July 15". I wonder if Proxie Models is drop shipping them direct or if they have to to go through Rust Forge.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Those are available through Proxie Models too? A known and reliable vendor?

**Dr Mathias**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Those are available through Proxie Models too? A known and reliable vendor?

Proxie Models is the manufacturer- a guy who decided to buy an injection machine and cut his own molds. It's been very interesting following his progress and blog. I have a few of his buildings and barricades- they're not bad, considering his learning curve and the balls it took to start something like plastic injection in his garage. I've only ordered from him once, but it was shipped fast and he answered email questions quickly.

http://proxiemodels.com/

He made the containers for Rust Forge- who apparently sells them themselves, and also sells them through Defiance. Proxie doesn't sell the containers. For what its worth, Rust Forge also shipped my single order out pretty quick.

http://rustforge.com/

Kind of odd, but I've seen similar arrangements in other wargame companies.

**Mathieu Raymond**

I was aware of Proxie Models. Thank you for the link through Rust Forge. Being in the retail business, I find it odd that the product goes through so many hands and ends up being affordable at all. Proxie gets his cut, Rust gets theirs, then Defiance (which I'm sure ain't selling at a loss)

**Eilif**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I was aware of Proxie Models. Thank you for the link through Rust Forge. Being in the retail business, I find it odd that the product goes through so many hands and ends up being affordable at all. Proxie gets his cut, Rust gets theirs, then Defiance (which I'm sure ain't selling at a loss)

Do we know that it goes through all three?

Perhaps Rustforge and Defiance both go strait to Proxie. Not an unusual manufacturer to retailer relationship (though even retailers sometimes have middlemen). Ken (owner of proxie) recently said in his blog post that he's emphasizing a bit more of the manufacturing side of things.
http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-tale-of-2-hobbies-long-talk-sure-to.html

**Xeno**

Eilif wrote:
http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-tale-of-2-hobbies-long-talk-sure-to.html

Ow. That was a pretty scathing (and rather polite) post.

**Eilif**

Yeah, he's pretty good a getting right to the point but not being insulting about it.

Honestly, the prospect of supporting Proxie does make buying the containers at this price more palatable, but I think I'll just keep buying bases instead.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Depending on how much Defiance sells them for... I thin k I'd rather buy from Rust Forge still.

**Eilif**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Depending on how much Defiance sells them for... I thin k I'd rather buy from Rust Forge still.

Good Point. On reflection I think I might also.
Though if it in any way hastens the arrival of the hardsuits I might have to reconsider.

Of course all this assumes the unlikely scenario where I suddenly decide that my 6 AT43 conatainers are somehow inadequate.

**Shepherd23**

Eilif wrote:
Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I was aware of Proxie Models. Thank you for the link through Rust Forge. Being in the retail business, I find it odd that the product goes through so many hands and ends up being affordable at all. Proxie gets his cut, Rust gets theirs, then Defiance (which I'm sure ain't selling at a loss)

Do we know that it goes through all three?

Perhaps Rustforge and Defiance both go strait to Proxie. Not an unusual manufacturer to retailer relationship (though even retailers sometimes have middlemen). Ken (owner of proxie) recently said in his blog post that he's emphasizing a bit more of the manufacturing side of things.
http://proxiemodels.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-tale-of-2-hobbies-long-talk-sure-to.html

No one is selling at a loss. Proxie Models (Ken) is the manufacturer of the shipping containers. Rust Forge (ME!!!!) designed them, and many other yet to be released products, and paid PM to manufacture them, Defiance Games (Tony) is licensed by Rust Forge (Me again) to sell them, just like I do.

This is basic high school level economics. There is not any mystery or obfuscation here. If you look at the DG container packaging, you will see both companies names on it. This product is 100% designed, manufactured and shipped from the USA. China had nothing to do with this kit. Even the steel mold is manufactured in the USA.

**Mathieu Raymond**

The question did not imply obfuscation on your part, but genuine curiosity, believe it or not. If it's all the same though, I'd rather buy through you.

**Shepherd23**

I am fine with that. You send me money and I will send you toys. That is kinda how I imagined this when I started this whole thing.

Sorry for the confusion. It is difficult to tell, at times, if someone is just curious or if there is genuine complaint or concern. I just wanted to make sure that there was no grey area.

Now go buy my stuff so I can make more for you to buy!

**Mathieu Raymond**

Aye aye, sir!

**Mathieu Raymond**

Tony Reidy wrote on his forum:

Hello All! I haven't given any updates in a while because everything has been so hectic and crazed - but I wanted to take a little time to give you an idea of what we're doing and what's to come.

I am gun-shy on making any grand pronouncements as we've always been one step forward and two back every time we've thought we've gotten things under control...but - knock on wood - cross fingers - salt over the shoulder - we seem to be settling into a nice new somewhat stable flow right now.

You'll remember what's come before. We did our first set of the Marines in injection molded plastic - here in the US. It took us a long, long time to find someone to do it. It got done but it took a lot longer and went a lot over budget to get there. We then embarked on the spincast plastic process - but it wasn't quite ready for primetime. It was basically a year of working out the kinks and figuring it all out. Part of that was the process and the materials themselves, but part of it was in understanding the types of parts that could be done effectively with few miscasts and a fast production flow.

The bad part of that last bit was that sets like the Bugs and the Germans were really designed for injection molding on frames - not for spinning. So the labor and waste plastic that went into each of those was time and cost prohibitive. We eventually worked out how to set up the Germans in such a way to mass produce them and start putting them into widespread distribution (i.e. not just for sale on this website).

The spincast plastic process and the final product is just amazing - and that's why we've stuck with it through all this pain to get it right. The ability to have true undercuts, figures with less parts, and the ability to get all the detail of metal figures into plastic ones is just so awesome that we had to make it work. But that took time.

The reality of it all is that we have really been in R&D mode from the beginning of 2011 up to about a couple months ago. Learning continues - as it should! - but the major mysteries and kinks are all worked out and we know how to design the right types of figures for the spincast process. The last mystery - having consistently colored plastic - looks like it's being solved next week too!

Anyway, the reality is that although we have Marines, Germans, Bugs, Worms, Chinese, and now the nifty new Shipping Containers. From January 2011 to July 2013 we really only had 1 1/2 products in true distribution (Marines and Germans) because of our manufacturing teething issues. That - finally - is all about to change.

This week we released our third product (care of Rust Forge) into widespread distribution - the Shipping Containers. These have been VERY popular and now our challenge will be to keep an eye on stock levels and make sure we're keeping up to speed.

The Shipping Containers allowed us to do something that we've been wanting to - which is change our packaging. We've moved away from cardboard boxes and are standardizing with plastic cases (similar to what Mantic and North Star are using). These are a bit more expensive than boxes but much faster to get artwork and printing done for them. And since the outside cover is the only thing that changes - you can use blank ones for any product you need. We think they're a pretty nice added value for the customer too as you can use them to store all sorts of stuff. Heck, you could even print your own covers and use them as figure cases or to hold your I Like Ike button collection!

Anyway, now that the Shipping Containers are out - and manufacturing is moving along nicely - we're going to be using these new cases to bring three more products to widespread distribution over the next couple week: the Aleutian Swamp Worms, the Bugs, and the Imperial Chinese. The Worms and Chinese have not had a box done for them yet - so this will be the first time these sets can get to stores. The Bugs - at 30 a box - were always WAY too time consuming to produce to go into distribution with (and frankly unprofitable) - so we're reducing the # per set and reconfiguring the molds and parts in a way that will make them work going forward.

That's great you say - but how about NEW stuff?

We have a lot in the works right now.

The Female Marines are being sculpted and will include two heavy weapon teams in the set. The beauty of these heavy weapons is that they can be used with the male Marines as well - so this set will really enhance your Marine force.

The Germans are also getting their first heavy weapon set. And it's something that we think you are going to be blown away by. It's also being sculpted right now. This is going to be the start of a revision of the Germans to bring them in line with the Marines and Chinese in detail, sizing, and configuration. We'll explain more as we get farther along. We hope to have the first of them to show off in the next week or so - but don't hold us to that!

The JRAB - you remember we pulled back on this set because an opportunity came up to do something very cool with it. We don't yet know if this is going to pan out - but it's in process and we should know very soon.

The German Mech - is waiting to see the results of the JRAB. We'll know soon.

Hardsuits - we need to make changes to the legs and hands to make them more mold friendly. This is something that the sculptor who is working on the Germans is going to be able to do once he wraps those up.

There's more in the works too - but we're trying to take baby steps to get it all rolling the proper way. Stay tuned. Keep buying stuff! We'll keep making it! And let us know what you want as well!

Interesting to see that the hardsuits are, again, being pushed as the last project out the door. Though if there is a lot of changes to the legs and arms, I don't know... I hope they show us some renders. Or even better, good quality pictures.

**CptJake**

The ability to have true undercuts, figures with less parts, and the ability to get all the detail of metal figures into plastic ones is just so awesome that we had to make it work.

Why do I not feel tempted to hold my breath?

**Mathieu Raymond**

Because you read Xenos' review of the Chinese?

**Mathieu Raymond**

New post by Tony Reidy:

http://defiancegames.com/comms-chatter/german-panzergrenadiers-core-force/11354-leopard-or-marder

We're in the midst of JRAB and the first German Mech - the 3rd vehicle will either be a German Leopard anti-grav tank or a Marder APC. Which one would you like to see?

Stepping outside the ALIEN WAR verse for a moment - which one would be more useful for other game systems?

Let us know!

Some random images for inspiration...

And then he posts a bunch of pictures I don't know if I have the rights to or not.

**CptJake**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
New post by Tony Reidy:

http://defiancegames.com/comms-chatter/german-panzergrenadiers-core-force/11354-leopard-or-marder

We're in the midst of JRAB and the first German Mech - the 3rd vehicle will either be a German Leopard anti-grav tank or a Marder APC. Which one would you like to see?

Stepping outside the ALIEN WAR verse for a moment - which one would be more useful for other game systems?

Let us know!

Some random images for inspiration...

And then he posts a bunch of pictures I don't know if I have the rights to or not.

I doubt he had the rights to those photos either.

**Brother SRM**

He doesn't need the rights to them. They're just for inspiration. He's not making models based directly off any one of those.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Yeah, but I'd rather not have a deserving artist sending me an email that could be translated as: "You thought you'd do the same thing as Tony Reidy because it sounded like a good idea?"

**Eilif**

Another Proxie-produced product joins the Defiance Line-up.
Plastic containment barriers.

http://defiancegames.com/index.php/shop?utm_source=Defiance+Games+List&utm_campaign=fccb2ff729-Transmissions_014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_3b6da26112-fccb2ff729-284749777#!/~/product/category=6106686&id=25968324

A really useful product for modern and sci-fi gaming, 15 barriers for $30 isn't bad as terrain goes...

...but they're still almost twice the price of buying direct from Proxie
http://www.proxiemodels.com/store2/index.php?route=product/product&path=18_45&product_id=75

Despite the price-bump, this seems like a very wise move for Defiance. Basic terrain products that are already being reliably produced can be brought to market immediately without the potential customer backlash from missed deadlines and unmet expectations.

**CptJake**

Eilif wrote:

Despite the price-bump, this seems like a very wise move for Defiance. Basic terrain products that are already being reliably produced can be brought to market immediately without the potential customer backlash from missed deadlines and unmet expectations.

It is an interesting strategy.

1. Have massive trouble producing what you promise to produce
2. Become a joke of a company
3. Sell another company's product in hopes of bringing in revenue and mitigating damage previously done
4. Profit?

I'll buy Proxie products from Proxie if/when I need some (I do have some of their 15mm vehicles and terrain and love 'em)

**Mathieu Raymond**

Yeah, I mean, for someone who doesn't know their past history it looks like they are churning out products reliably, but any kind of digging reveals it's... not theirs.

Oh, and they're starting a podcast. And apparently there's going to be news concerning the JRAB soon.

**AlexHolker**

Eilif wrote:
Despite the price-bump, this seems like a very wise move for Defiance. Basic terrain products that are already being reliably produced can be brought to market immediately without the potential customer backlash from missed deadlines and unmet expectations.

No, it creates entirely new forms of customer backlash, when they find out you were ripping them off by charging 70% above the retail price.

As an aside, their new website does not work properly. Maybe it's because I do not accept their cookies but it keeps refreshing over and over again.

**Brother SRM**

I don't understand selling other peoples' stuff for more than they charge. I really don't. There's no way that can be an effective business strategy if your buyer is willing to do just a tiny bit of research, and finding a relatively obscure company like Defiance in the first place requires some digging of its own already.

**Mathieu Raymond**

No it doesn't. We keep giving them "free" publicity by bumping this thread.

**PresidentOfAsia**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Yeah, but I'd rather not have a deserving artist sending me an email that could be translated as: "You thought you'd do the same thing as Tony Reidy because it sounded like a good idea?"

You seem to have at least 9000 posts about ripping on the company

Seriously is this what miniature wargaming has come down to? A bunch of 40 year olds on the internet finding every excuse to rip on various companies?