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PresidentOfAsia wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Yeah, but I'd rather not have a deserving artist sending me an email that could be translated as: "You thought you'd do the same thing as Tony Reidy because it sounded like a good idea?"

You seem to have at least 9000 posts about ripping on the company

Seriously is this what miniature wargaming has come down to? A bunch of 40 year olds on the internet finding every excuse to rip on various companies?

You don't seem to realize the companies history and how they probably deserve a good bit of ripping on.

PresidentOfAsia wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Yeah, but I'd rather not have a deserving artist sending me an email that could be translated as: "You thought you'd do the same thing as Tony Reidy because it sounded like a good idea?"

You seem to have at least 9000 posts about ripping on the company

Seriously is this what miniature wargaming has come down to? A bunch of 40 year olds on the internet finding every excuse to rip on various companies?

Hyperbole much? If I come to what I believe is a reasonable conclusion based on their past behaviour, then I do believe nothing stops me from sharing that opinion with others in the hopes that others will engage in business with them being forewarned. I thought this was part and parcel of this community, and I do believe that I am a level-headed member of it.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:

PresidentOfAsia wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Yeah, but I'd rather not have a deserving artist sending me an email that could be translated as: "You thought you'd do the same thing as Tony Reidy because it sounded like a good idea?"

You seem to have at least 9000 posts about ripping on the company

Seriously is this what miniature wargaming has come down to? A bunch of 40 year olds on the internet finding every excuse to rip on various companies?

Hyperbole much? If I come to what I believe is a reasonable conclusion based on their past behaviour, then I do believe nothing stops me from sharing that opinion with others in the hopes that others will engage in business with them being forewarned. I thought this was part and parcel of this community, and I do believe that I am a level-headed member of it.

And besides, you have less than 2k posts total. No way you could have 9k just slagging defiance.

Exactly my point!

Not that I'm not trying to reach 2K, mind you.

M. Raymond is 40?!? 0.o

No, I'm not. By a few years yet. Can we stop speaking about me and focus on the Battle Eggs?

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Can we stop speaking about me and focus on the Battle Eggs?

Well, you exist and multiple people have seen you in person and in pictures. Can we say the same for the Battle Eggs yet?

Well, you exist and multiple people have seen you in person and in pictures. Can we say the same for the Battle Eggs yet?

Maybe, instead of thinking a company deserves being ripped on because of growing pains and process development, you try to understand that starting a company and developing/growing a product line is difficult enough without having to also worry about people constantly ripping on them every time they attempt to explain the situation or release a new product.

Its actually easier for you to do nothing at all, but as has been pointed out, you chose the low road and decide to make drama.

 Krinsath wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Can we stop speaking about me and focus on the Battle Eggs?

I can say the same regarding the battle eggs. I, however, do not recall ever meeting Mr. Raymond or you, so am I left to believe that you are both just random internet ghosts because I haven't seen or met you?

Defiance has made mistakes and experienced their fair share of delays. The fact that they are still trying to make it work and fight an up hill battle shows their desire to succeed and improve the variety of products available in this market. Constantly harping on them does nothing positive, but improve some, already, over inflated post counts. If its that big a deal for you, go say hi to newbs, they could use the ego boost, I am sure. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/65.page

 rustforge wrote:

Maybe, instead of thinking a company deserves being ripped on because of growing pains and process development, you try to understand that starting a company and developing/growing a product line is difficult enough without having to also worry about people constantly ripping on them every time they attempt to explain the situation or release a new product.

Its actually easier for you to do nothing at all, but as has been pointed out, you chose the low road and decide to make drama.


I can say the same regarding the battle eggs. I, however, do not recall ever meeting Mr. Raymond or you, so am I left to believe that you are both just random internet ghosts because I haven't seen or met you?

Defiance has made mistakes and experienced their fair share of delays. The fact that they are still trying to make it work and fight an up hill battle shows their desire to succeed and improve the variety of products available in this market. Constantly harping on them does nothing positive, but improve some, already, over inflated post counts. If its that big a deal for you, go say hi to newbs, they could use the ego boost, I am sure. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/65.page

You are really not helping yourself by getting into this fray. I understand that you are now one of their business partners, but all you can do here is damage your own reputation.

Defiance has a questionable past, and deserves a lot of the flak they receive. Maybe not all of it, but definitely a lot of it.

~Eric

 rustforge wrote:
Maybe, instead of thinking a company deserves being ripped on because of growing pains and process development, ...

Is 'growing pains' the new name for 'promising huge things, failing to deliver, blaming on everybody else, and then starting the whole cycle all over again' now?


How a company presents itself to the world has a great deal to do with how they are treated in return.

 Taarnak wrote:


You are really not helping yourself by getting into this fray. I understand that you are now one of their business partners, but all you can do here is damage your own reputation.

Defiance has a questionable past, and deserves a lot of the flak they receive. Maybe not all of it, but definitely a lot of it.

There is much wisdom here; I understand that RustForge has a vested interest in people liking their business partner, but for a goodly portion of the market who are familiar with the story, that ship has long since sailed. I was very sympathetic to Defiance in the beginning, as their story sounded like someone who had gotten in over his head and was trying to make another go as a wiser, humbler company. Their actions since then with the many faults that insaniak lays out show that no, they did not learn from the debacle(s) that sank their last company, and people should be aware of that track record.

Also, "publicly mocking competitors without provocation" was left off your list insaniak.

So your saying that if a company makes mistakes, it is ok to ridicule them for it?

If the blame was warranted, is this still unacceptable? The mold makers came online and explained the delay with the marines. Tony explained each time that there was further delay, it WAS the mold makers failing to make their assigned due date, then the mold maker confirmed it.

When DG switched to resin, there was a longer learning curve than anticipated, tony explained that as well.

Now, when he is trying to offer a product that a lot of people may not know about, he is being accused of obfuscating the issues and covering bad history with delivered product. Maybe he is just trying to offer a product.

As the saying goes, sometimes a duck is just a duck. The way your interpreting things, he will be blamed for JFK, Lincoln and fathering hitler. I don't see this amount of animosity for every kickstarter that fails to deliver.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krinsath wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:


You are really not helping yourself by getting into this fray. I understand that you are now one of their business partners, but all you can do here is damage your own reputation.

Defiance has a questionable past, and deserves a lot of the flak they receive. Maybe not all of it, but definitely a lot of it.

There is much wisdom here; I understand that RustForge has a vested interest in people liking their business partner, but for a goodly portion of the market who are familiar with the story, that ship has long since sailed. I was very sympathetic to Defiance in the beginning, as their story sounded like someone who had gotten in over his head and was trying to make another go as a wiser, humbler company. Their actions since then with the many faults that insaniak lays out show that no, they did not learn from the debacle(s) that sank their last company, and people should be aware of that track record.

Also, "publicly mocking competitors without provocation" was left off your list insaniak.

I disagree that they "deserve" the flak. If they purposely were delaying product, then they would deserve flak. At this point, all the crap being said is basically kicking a horse while its down. They made mistakes and they have experienced delays because of it, I am sure the lost and delayed income are painful enough.

My comments have nothing to do with my being vested with DG. I just hate seeing all the crap that constantly gets said by people who assume they know the whole story. And comparing DG games issues to WF issues is a night and day comparission. WF was a calculated takeover by the manufacturer. Blaming tony for not seeing that coming is just messed up. And he did learn quite well from that debacle, that is why there are no Chinese plastic manufacturers involved. After reading everything about that situation, I geniunely feel bad for Dreamforge now that they are locked in with them. Curious how, they also, are experiencing delays with their products.

Shepherd23 wrote:
And he did learn quite well from that debacle, that is why there are no Chinese plastic manufacturers involved. After reading everything about that situation, I geniunely feel bad for Dreamforge now that they are locked in with them. Curious how, they also, are experiencing delays with their products.

Maybe there should be more Chinese manufacturers involved. Since partnering with WGF, Dreamforge has produced some beautiful, highly-detailed kits which rival Games Workshop in quality. Since splitting with WGF, Defiance has put out... a handful of badly cast, poorly-detailed kits, which amount to less than half of what they've announced.

I think the past year has shown that contracting WGF has very little to do with a company's success or failure.

Shepherd23 wrote:
I disagree that they "deserve" the flak. If they purposely were delaying product, then they would deserve flak. At this point, all the crap being said is basically kicking a horse while its down.

You don't kick a horse when it's down, you shoot it. And that seems an appropriate response to a company that doesn't know the meaning of the words "quality control" like Defiance Games.

Poor poor Defiance. The only reason they are not the new Big Thing is because some of us are meanies.

Sorry. ANY company that over a couple of years has repeated mistakes, learned new mistakes, and puts on the public face Defiance has is worthy of derision. In the real world, your customers and potential customers are going to let their feelings about your product and service known. If the business is not happy with those feelings, blaming the customers usually is not the right answer. 'Friends' of the business similarly blaming the customers/potential customers isn't going to build good will either. What builds good will is positive change. Frankly Defiance hasn't gone that route yet.

They have produced 4 kits at this point, only 3 in resin, and your biggest gripe is quality control? This is based off the few negative reviews that have made it here?

Consider that they are working in the hardest to manage medium in this hobby, resin. Then consider that they have only been using this medium for about a year or so. Then look at the tens of thousands of Finecast models that have so many issues that the line has become a punchline for failure jokes. At least DG is trying to produce a better quality set of kits and make it affordable instead of spoon feeding you garbage and calling it gold. They purposely hold back on producing kits for mass production because they realize there was an issue and you believe they have a lack of quality control? That is more insane than Insaniak's name.

They choose to use 'the hardest to manage medium in this hobby', screw it up, and I am supposed to feel bad for them?

Did you happen to see the pictures (in this thread) of product they shipped to paying customers? Did you not see the mis-cast items actually sent out?

Yep, QC is an issue. Those pictures of actual product shipped clearly show this to be the case.

Now I would argue QC isn't their biggest issue. But to attempt to argue it isn't an issue at all would seem silly based on the examples shown. Heck, the QC on their own product pictures is poor. Look at the blurry 'official' product photos they put out.

I never said there wasn't a quality issue. I did say they are aware of it and are attempting to rectify it. That's better than others in the industry, especially the supposed leader for the industry.

I also never told you how to feel. I said that considering what they doing, the massive amount of negativity hurled at them isn't really warranted.

Shepherd23 wrote:
I never said there wasn't a quality issue.

So how should I have taken:

Shepherd23 wrote:


They purposely hold back on producing kits for mass production because they realize there was an issue and you believe they have a lack of quality control? That is more insane than Insaniak's name.

As for unwarranted negativity, again, blaming folks who call it like they see it isn't going to fix any issues they have. The continued negativity is warranted until they prove, by actions, it is not. Frankly, they have had had more than enough chances to do so in my opinion. They continue to

1. ship items that should have failed QC controls
2. Accept money for product they cannot ship
3. fail to make good on promises
4. blame others for their failings
5. (this one is new) charge more for other company's product than what that company charged

You should have taken it as it was intended. The fact that they realized there was an issue and that they held back full release until the issue was resolved, shows a level of QC.

1. They are attempting to resolve the issue as previously stated.
2. I haven't seen them taking any pre orders for product that can't ship recently. Yes, it did happen. Again, it wasn't intended to work out that way.
3. And 4. They never intended the delays. As already stated, QC has caused them to delay products.
5. They attempt to assist companies with bringing product to distribution levels far beyond their capabilities alone and you find fault with this?

Shepherd23 wrote:
You should have taken it as it was intended. The fact that they realized there was an issue and that they held back full release until the issue was resolved, shows a level of QC.

1. They are attempting to resolve the issue as previously stated.
2. I haven't seen them taking any pre orders for product that can't ship recently. Yes, it did happen. Again, it wasn't intended to work out that way.
3. And 4. They never intended the delays. As already stated, QC has caused them to delay products.
5. They attempt to assist companies with bringing product to distribution levels far beyond their capabilities alone and you find fault with this?

Considering that the guy behind Defiance is suppose to have experience from working for another miniatures company and that I've seen far better QC from one man outfits I cannot in all honesty recommend Defiance to anyone.

If Defiance manages to clean up its act and turn things around then I'd probably look at it in a much better light, though from what I've seen so far I feel it currently deserves the negativity its getting.

Rust Forge: Despite what you may feel about me, I still believe your product to be worth it, but make no mistake, I will only be buying from you directly. Defiance will not see a single *non-existent* canadian penny from me for your product. Did you hear the massive upsurge against the quality of your product on this forum? Me neither. That ought to be more than good for all involved, but I refuse to give them credit that is due to you entirely.

Exactly the same can be said about the Proxie Models barriers.

Regarding the few latest posts about quality control and resin, for me it boils down to this. I would be dissapointed to pay for those PZG, or the Chinese. Would I have a right to complain about it publicly? I believe so. That is one of the roles of a community, after all. We're not demonizing those who choose to still buy (at least I don't) after having seen both sides of the product (official company shots and reviews on Dakka). You have to able to be able to accept that some people judge products with different value scales than yours, mine just happens to include feet fully formed on models, but if that's ok with you, then I'm fine with it, I'd even play you, and pay for the libations once you've thoroughly trounced me.

There is a thread concerning Dreamforge, I suggest we take that discussion over there.

And can we give up on my post count already? I didn't know it was such an issue, but I'd be happy if the MODs lowered mine to a number befitting me.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
None of the above should be read in anything else but a light-hearted tone of voice, just so ya'll know.

Remember, DG/Tony only had experience with having plastic model kits manufactured. With resin, he is as new as I am with plastic. As with all new manufacturing techniques, there is a learning curve. It took me 2 years of school to learn the software and then another year of research and design to actually get my container to market. Granted, I have my next 6 months products designed and ready for manufacturing, but there is always the learning curve to consider. Luckily, plastics issues are typically resolved before the public can even see it.

I will be trouncing no one. I suck at playing these games. Now munchkin, I am a devise bastard with that. And play me with lunch money and the beating you get will feel real!

Shepherd23 wrote:
They have produced 4 kits at this point, only 3 in resin, and your biggest gripe is quality control? This is based off the few negative reviews that have made it here?

Consider that they are working in the hardest to manage medium in this hobby, resin. Then consider that they have only been using this medium for about a year or so. Then look at the tens of thousands of Finecast models that have so many issues that the line has become a punchline for failure jokes. At least DG is trying to produce a better quality set of kits and make it affordable instead of spoon feeding you garbage and calling it gold. They purposely hold back on producing kits for mass production because they realize there was an issue and you believe they have a lack of quality control?

They have produced 4 kits so far, and that is more than enough of a track record to berate their quality control. Nothing about DG's sub-par products in any way indicates that delays in production were a matter increasing QC. They aren't any better quality than Finecast, and a bad product is a bad product, even if it is cheap.

Resin may be difficult, but it's not a new technology. The problem here is that in one year DG has released 4 products. If they were learning from their mistakes the products would be getting better, even marginally. They aren't. We see scale issues, breakage prone models, and the kind of repeated casting flaws that clearly show sub-par QC in the moldmaking and production. That's why I and others sometimes come across as being hard on DG. They released one pretty good product (UAMC marines) and the only products that have matched that level of quality have been re-badged terrain from Rusforge and/or Proxie. DG needs to focus on getting out one new product that matches the quality of the plastic marines and stop getting sidetracked.

Also, please understand that most of the derision that DG defenders are seeing from us complainers is disappointment from folks who really wanted DG to do something great, but have been consistently presented with missed deadlines, sub-par products and excuses.

Well, apparently now they're coming in plastic boxes instead of cardboard ones:
http://defiancegames.com/news/item/we-ve-gone-plastic
I don't know why that's a thing, or what the benefits of it are. If anything I'd figure they'd be more expensive to produce. They look like the cases for PC games.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Well, apparently now they're coming in plastic boxes instead of cardboard ones:
http://defiancegames.com/news/item/we-ve-gone-plastic
I don't know why that's a thing, or what the benefits of it are. If anything I'd figure they'd be more expensive to produce. They look like the cases for PC games.

Playing follow the leader with the cases mantic does?

Shepherd23 wrote:
You should have taken it as it was intended. The fact that they realized there was an issue and that they held back full release until the issue was resolved, shows a level of QC.

2. I haven't seen them taking any pre orders for product that can't ship recently. Yes, it did happen. Again, it wasn't intended to work out that way.

Seriously?

They took money for the jeep thing, and have not delivered. Does that count as recent to you? It does to me.

Heck, right now they are allowing folks to preorder the barriers and containers. Is currently doing it recent enough for you? It is for me.

PRE-ORDER SPECIAL! 4 Cargo Containers - 30 Containment Barriers! FREE WORLDWIDE SHIPPING!

http://defiancegames.com/index.php/shop#!/~/product/category=6106686&id=25968337

 Brother SRM wrote:
Well, apparently now they're coming in plastic boxes instead of cardboard ones:
http://defiancegames.com/news/item/we-ve-gone-plastic
I don't know why that's a thing, or what the benefits of it are. If anything I'd figure they'd be more expensive to produce. They look like the cases for PC games.

It's possible that it's cheaper to buy these Video style cases and slip in paper with the product info and artwork. That would be a good move on DG's part. Hard cases might result in less shipping breakages.

From the website:

Going forward everything but the Marines will be in these (too many frames to fit in there for the UAMC!)

This on the other hand makes me sad as it looks like DG is going plasti-resin from here on out. I was really hoping to see some plastic figs (better quality than the plasti-resin) but I guess that's not in the cards now.

I looked into the plastic cases for Blackwater Gulch .. was even going to buy them direct from Mantic .. but the shipping price from the UK was crazy and my publisher decided to just do cardstock, it's cheaper and easier in the end.

I do like the look of the plastic cases for defiance and also mantic, looks good on the shelf. I dunno how many people keep the cases after the fact though. I have a few mantic ones sitting on my shelf that I've never used for anything but for some reason I don't wanna throw them out just in case I need them for something someday...

 CptJake wrote:

Shepherd23 wrote:
You should have taken it as it was intended. The fact that they realized there was an issue and that they held back full release until the issue was resolved, shows a level of QC.

2. I haven't seen them taking any pre orders for product that can't ship recently. Yes, it did happen. Again, it wasn't intended to work out that way.

Seriously?

They took money for the jeep thing, and have not delivered. Does that count as recent to you? It does to me.

Heck, right now they are allowing folks to preorder the barriers and containers. Is currently doing it recent enough for you? It is for me.

PRE-ORDER SPECIAL! 4 Cargo Containers - 30 Containment Barriers! FREE WORLDWIDE SHIPPING!

http://defiancegames.com/index.php/shop#!/~/product/category=6106686&id=25968337

I was with the understanding that they had no outstsnding pre orders remaining. The container pre orders shipped ahead of schedule. The barriers are slated to ship ahead as well. As for the JRAB, I am not 100%, but I believe there are no outstanding orders for them currently either, but I could be mistaken on that product. If I am then I apologize for not being better informed on the subject, but your quoting the containers and barriers as shipping issues is way off the mark. This I do know for a fact.