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Tau = Crap army
+ Chance = You will be able to take an objective
+ luck = you will not suffer a embarrising total loss of every last model off the table.


Its not even split its 60% army and 30% skill and 10% luck.
I played enough to know that a crappy army book can never win despite how good the player is and a less experienced and good player can easily beat a better player with more experience just because his codex is broken and he took over powered options that gave him multi shooting large template str 10 ap 1 blasts that go long range and I am sure I am remembering wrong but I think it was also ignoring over lol.

OH! not to mention that they are scouts AND psychers AND can move and still use all their powers....if I remember right. I just remember seeing a tank move as a scout and then move again in the movement phase and shoot 3 super long range str 10 large blasts that wiped much of an army off the table and OH! Each costs less then 500 points and they had 3 of them!

Zogging Zogwat!

I would like to have had an option for "Mostly army and luck"

The dice rolling is all chance and praise to the dice gods. Deployment, movement, picking targerts and the like is all skill based.

There have always been 3 factors

Army
Luck
Skill

Orks vs Dark Eldar? Orks have almost 0% of winning. Outgunned like crazy, Dark eldar can spam an infinite amount of ranged weaponry and clean up the greens in CC.

You might have the biggest guns,.. but if you keep rolling 1's they are useless.

Skill comes with the amount of games you play and your ability of insight.

First option here.

With the possibile addition of "rules knowledge", but that may well reside within the "skills" part.

True, bad rolls may ruin an important volley of fire, whereas a lucky sev... ehm six array may bestow astounding overwatch results and so on...

But a good build, smartly placed, knowing the limits of own and opponent's army may... err.. "cushion" the impact of 'unwishful rolls'

When you first start it's chance. Then if it depends on you're army:
If it's an easy army like IG it's more "I've got more guns than you, I win" and you win with you're army.
If it's a subtle, tactical army you win with skill.
If it's Orks you lose because the entire army forgets why it's there, who it's fighting or where "here" is. They then proceed to dribble, look lazily at the sky and then get massacred.


( no offence Ork players, but my mate loves Orks and is always disappointed when he is destroyed on the board. It can't be him because we all field each others armies and despite different leaders they still haven't won a battle since before Christmas)

 Stoned Monkey wrote:
When you first start it's chance. Then if it depends on you're army:
If it's an easy army like IG it's more "I've got more guns than you, I win" and you win with you're army.
If it's a subtle, tactical army you win with skill.
If it's Orks you lose because the entire army forgets why it's there, who it's fighting or where "here" is. They then proceed to dribble, look lazily at the sky and then get massacred.


( no offence Ork players, but my mate loves Orks and is always disappointed when he is destroyed on the board. It can't be him because we all field each others armies and despite different leaders they still haven't won a battle since before Christmas)

Tell him to go full Bad Moonz and Speed Freekz.
He'll understand

I'd say about 45% chance and skill and 10% army

Bad moonz and speed freekz, ok.
His are blue and rusty orange, but I don't know what clan they are (if they are one, he makes stuff up a lot)

 Sonophos wrote:
I think that GW deliberately power up each new dex to encourage power players to buy a new army.

Things like GK terminators costing the same as SM terminators point for point doesn't look like an obvious one but ion game having them as troop choices is significant.

The Introduction of the stormraven and the valkyrie are two more obvious balance throws along with BAs getting Jump infantry in their troop choices for the same points as a FA from the SM dex.

GW just introduce a couple of game breakers in each dex so you are best off looking for these and including them in your army but beware they will cost you a small fortune to put into practice due to the less than hidden price policy of GW.

Do you even know what their gross profit margin is mate?

1/3 1/3 1/3 for me. Sometimes you can have sure fire things go completely wrong.
Like rolling 13 1s with a squad during a shooting phase! That's just BAD luck, no
Skill involved in that!

Mix between chance and army

 Vasarto wrote:
Tau = Crap army
+ Chance = You will be able to take an objective
+ luck = you will not suffer a embarrising total loss of every last model off the table.


Its not even split its 60% army and 30% skill and 10% luck.
I played enough to know that a crappy army book can never win despite how good the player is and a less experienced and good player can easily beat a better player with more experience just because his codex is broken and he took over powered options that gave him multi shooting large template str 10 ap 1 blasts that go long range and I am sure I am remembering wrong but I think it was also ignoring over lol.

OH! not to mention that they are scouts AND psychers AND can move and still use all their powers....if I remember right. I just remember seeing a tank move as a scout and then move again in the movement phase and shoot 3 super long range str 10 large blasts that wiped much of an army off the table and OH! Each costs less then 500 points and they had 3 of them!

Zogging Zogwat!

I have to agree.

You have to look at this issue from another perspective. I use to play M:TG, and each season there would be a few top tier decks. Because you can construct your own deck, and the secondary market for the cards used in the those tourney winning decks are dictated to be extremely over price due to limited supply even if they print several thousands copies of those cards combined by the insane demand, a novice player can purchase those expensive cards and still win with very little skill. Therefore Deck Build>Skill>Luck in magic the gathering.

Likewise in WH40K, there are top tier armies and cheese lists. I had been told that IG, Necrons, and Grey Knights. Necron have their night scythes flying circus. IG has their squadrons of cost effective 3 TL LC Vendettas. Grey Knights have their Storm Ravens. Each of these flyers are able to fulfill multiple roles as interceptors, transport and provide anti-armor for their army. Its not just the air superiority that they dominate with, its the army specific rules that pushes them over the edge. Re-animation protocol is like a invincible fnp save for every Necron. IG with their doctrines and commands gives them the numerical edge. The Grey Knights are just simply godlike with all the powerful upgrades.

If a child can take a top tier army and fight a 2nd tier army and win then you simply have no argument for skill or chance. What are you going to say? That the 2nd tier army had bad luck? The 2nd Tier Commander made novice mistakes? Those are just excuses for losing to a better army.

Now what if the child loses? Congratulations, you beat a child and took his candy.

source: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/08/40k-editorial-most-powerful-armies-in_7.html

50% Codex Choice
40% List Construction
10% Luck
~Dash of skill.

Chongara wrote:
50% Codex Choice
40% List Construction
10% Luck
~Dash of skill.

I find that sentiment agreeable.

Would you consider the ability to determine what units are the best and knowledge of good hard counters, "Skill"? I mean, it's not luck.

A lot of 40k right now comes from list construction. That alone can make or break your army before models even hit the table. At that point, it's up to your skill to know where to put your units to make the most effect and luck because we're relying on dice to give us good rolls

 washout77 wrote:
Would you consider the ability to determine what units are the best and knowledge of good hard counters, "Skill"? I mean, it's not luck.

A lot of 40k right now comes from list construction. That alone can make or break your army before models even hit the table. At that point, it's up to your skill to know where to put your units to make the most effect and luck because we're relying on dice to give us good rolls

I'd go with luck. Lucky the enemy didn't have the perfect list for killing you,

 Selym wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
Would you consider the ability to determine what units are the best and knowledge of good hard counters, "Skill"? I mean, it's not luck.

A lot of 40k right now comes from list construction. That alone can make or break your army before models even hit the table. At that point, it's up to your skill to know where to put your units to make the most effect and luck because we're relying on dice to give us good rolls

I'd go with luck. Lucky the enemy didn't have the perfect list for killing you,

Well, a true TAC list wouldn't have that problem because you would try to avoid things in your army that can easily be countered. You can invest all your eggs in one basket, and that's when luck comes into play.

 washout77 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
Would you consider the ability to determine what units are the best and knowledge of good hard counters, "Skill"? I mean, it's not luck.

A lot of 40k right now comes from list construction. That alone can make or break your army before models even hit the table. At that point, it's up to your skill to know where to put your units to make the most effect and luck because we're relying on dice to give us good rolls

I'd go with luck. Lucky the enemy didn't have the perfect list for killing you,

Well, a true TAC list wouldn't have that problem because you would try to avoid things in your army that can easily be countered. You can invest all your eggs in one basket, and that's when luck comes into play.

While you are probably right, there is still the fact that you can just use net lists or mathammer or just dozens of games to work out the best possible list, and that really doesn't take much skill.

In fact, knowing that CSM cult troops are better than standard CSM in almost all builds takes no skill at all, and that's part of list building.

Between your point and mine, I'd say it has nothing to do with luck or skill...

While I know that skilled players can make the best of bad situations I'd have to weigh in on the side of army but most importantly your list. Now I know list writing is a skill in its own right but we can all find power lists on the Internet without having to actually come up with the combos on our own. Some books are just poorly written cheese fests and quite frankly GW should be ashamed for producing them, we will see what happens with the supposed release of every book this edition as to what the spread between top and bottom will be.

 Selym wrote:
I would like to have had an option for "Mostly army and luck"

+1

Guess how much skill can override say, a wall of Manticores with first turn? If you guessed "it can't do jack gak" then collect your prize!

Skill 40%
Chance 30%
Army 30%

I say other because I believe army and chance (in my experience) pay the most dividends. With alot of armies I find skill is often not involved, though it can contribute to the game. The only really skill alot of players I verse use is move forward and choose what to shoot at and nothing else (namely marine players)

ALL chance. I have the WORST odds in any and all dice games i play, Why do you ask that i play warhammer? its still fun. Out of 40 dice (Twin linked) with 3+ BS and 3+ W, i did 6 wounds. NOT including the enemy getting saves... and thats not just once. i get that on average. Have i won? no. lol ive played 6 times and yes i do partly agree my skill could help my odds, but doesnt matter if im the master at warhammer 40k, i dont see anyone winning with 6 wounds per 40 shots.

Combination of chance, skill and army.
That being said, chance plays a far higher part of 40k than WHFB.

 Selym wrote:
I would like to have had an option for "Mostly army and luck"

My vote goes in here too.

Anyone who says 40k takes skill to win obviously hasn't played it much.

Its 60% army 40% luck. All you have to do to win is take a cheesy list and hope you don't do something silly like roll all 1's. And thanks to certain writers *cough*Matt Ward*cough* taking an overpowered list is so easy.

Although if your not in a tournament and your not playing a jerk then it really is an equal balance.

If you play with a "strong" army and win most of your games, you're more likely to say skill matters than army.
If you play with a "weak" army or lose most of your games, you're more likely to say army matters than skill.
If you play with Chaos, it's 100% the will of the Gods, and may the Plague Father ever be on your side.

In most cases I'd say a mostly even split. Of course there are occasionally games which pure chance has a massive effect on the game through statistical anomalies.

 Gandohar wrote:
Combination of chance, skill and army.
That being said, chance plays a far higher part of 40k than WHFB.

Until you see someone using law of death and it all go right for them.

I'd say it's 45% chance, 40% skill and 15% army choice.