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This character has been picked from the fluff of my Chapter, the Instigators - proud 3rd Founding descendant of Dorn:
CAPTAIN RYGAN LEONARDUS...............................................200 Points
Captain of the Instigators 3rd Company
WS6 | BS5 | S4 | T4 | W3 | I5 | A3 | Ld10 | Sv2+
Unit Composition: • 1 (Unique)
Unit Type: • Infantry
WARGEAR: • Artificer armour
• Frag and krak grenades
• Master-crafted plasma pistol
• Power sword
• Iron halo
SPECIAL RULES: • And They Shall Know No Fear
• Combat Tactics
• Independent Character
• Company Tactics
• Eternal Warrior
SPECIAL RULES:
Company Tactics: Under the command of Captain Leonardus, the third company of Instigators has an honourable history of successful campaigns that has not escaped the attention of their Chapter Master. Leonardus has always stood as a stalwart and resourceful leader to inspire all.
If your army includes Rygan Leonardus, then up to two units in your army will exchange their Combat Tactics into Heroic Intervention. Company Tactics is an equivalent to Chapter Tactics special rule, thus if more than one unit in your army has Chapter Tactics rule, you must choose which version will apply.
WARGEAR:
Options: • Leonardus may replace his plasma pistol and power sword with Judgement of Galileias for +30 pts. The Judgement of Galileias is a master-crafted thunder hammer. It grants the wielder Preferred enemy (Chaos Space Marines) special rule, and all hits from it are resolved at Strength 9.
This character has been used a few times on the table, and none of the opponents have said it's overpowered... at least yet FYI: he will be the only Eternal Warrior of my characters, I tend to keep that special rule scarce, otherwise it'd look ridiculous to have 'em plenty.
...Except with Eldar... I've heard they've got EIGHT of them... <___<
No offense, but when the Chapter Masters and leaders of major chapters (ex. Azrael) do not have Eternal Warrior, why does Joe 3rd Company have it? Without even any explanation for it other than 'I want my special snowflake to be more special'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/29 20:20:44
No offense, but when the Chapter Masters and leaders of major chapters (ex. Azrael) do not have Eternal Warrior, why does Joe 3rd Company have it?
Since when the Chapters' character details had to follow such an obvious pattern?
Besides, for example, Dante doesn't have Eternal Warrior, neither does Pedro Kantor... NOR Vulkan He'stan.
The explanation is in the fluff of my Chapter. I may publish it here, should someone be interested of reading it and giving a review.
Exactly my point. Dante, Kantor and Vulkan are all way more experienced, way more powerful and way more advanced guys than, let me be frank, some 3rd Company Captain. Why exactly does he have it? Don't give me this cop-out excuse of "oh it is in my fluff which I might put out later" that's dodging the question. I don't need the whole backstory, but just a simple explanation as to why this one guy who, is pretty unremarkable as Space Marine Captains go, gets something that most Chapter Masters do not have.
curran12 wrote: Exactly my point. Dante, Kantor and Vulkan are all way more experienced, way more powerful and way more advanced guys than, let me be frank, some 3rd Company Captain. Why exactly does he have it? Don't give me this cop-out excuse of "oh it is in my fluff which I might put out later" that's dodging the question. I don't need the whole backstory, but just a simple explanation as to why this one guy who, is pretty unremarkable as Space Marine Captains go, gets something that most Chapter Masters do not have.
I fail to comprehend your logic to discard fluff in order to explain the character's equipment. But as simple as I can tell it you, is this:
The Chapter's veterans, gear, and specialists are decentralised - thus every company is responsible for their recruits, veteran wargear, and so on, so all of the companies are on the same level. There is no such thing as "veteran company", "scout company" nor "reserve company", they're all active companies - self-sufficient meta-armies. The third company has happened to partake the most decisive campaigns and gained experience beyond the other ones. In combat experience, the 1st and 4th companies come right behind the 3rd one.
But if that doesn't satisfy you as a legitimate answer... well, I can't tell it any better. And I just can't slap a post-it sticker to your forehead, in which reads: "I just made that up", for I'd be lying... and uncreative.
How did equipment enter into this? Did I miss something where he has a piece of gear giving him Eternal Warrior? All I see is just a note for Eternal Warrior, with no explanation given.
And no, that doesn't satisfy me. Space Marines are always self-sufficient, I don't see how a variation on chapter organization and doing a lot of missions suddenly makes your character immune to being obliterated by a lascannon. I guarantee you that guys like Dante have more experience than your guy, and they don't get EW.
So I'll ask again, and hopefully you can be a little more precise. What part of your fluff makes your character an eternal warrior?
curran12 wrote: I don't see how a variation on chapter organization and doing a lot of missions suddenly makes your character immune to being obliterated by a lascannon. I guarantee you that guys like Dante have more experience than your guy, and they don't get EW.
Boy, you are looking this situation with a black-and-white lens, mate.
First of all, we can agree that all Astartes are unique. Even though Cassius has become adamantine hard during the battles against Tyranids, and Lysander laughs at lascannon shots, not all highly experienced people get high toughness, Eternal Warrior, or similar that'd make him tough as steel - like Dante or Kantor. It's a chance, for which also affects the mentality and willpower of the character. Some men lose the power to live easier when mortally wounded, while some are too stubborn to die.
But even though I'd give you the answer right our from my fluff, I am having a feeling that you'd return it back too. But I stand as a patient man, and tell this to you - nice and simple:
Extensive bionics, mate, look into it. After taking enough blows and had enough bones broken and limbs torn off, they get replaced with metallic counterparts. Most of his skull and chest have been replaced with adamantine-plasteel alloy plating. You think those implants just happened to pop onto his body by rolling eyes and whistling in the Reclusiam all day long?
...And what comes to "doing a lot of missions", which "suddenly" makes characters stronger... yeah, I've yet to meet an Astartes with notably high resilience, who has only fought in practice battles and seen little to zero days of real warfare.
No offence intended - I only return fire.
I hope we're finally done here.
Tigramans, curran12's point is that your first answer to his query had nothing to do with the question. I agree with him.
He asked why your character has eternal warrior, and you answered with something unrelated about the organization of your chapter. It was quite confusing and didn't make a lot of sense.
Had you answered originally that he had extensive bionics, it would have made sense.
However, I must point out that a very healthy portion of fan-made marine characters have EW. Every person who makes such a character justifies with something like bionics/he's super tough!/he almost died but lived!/I don't want him to die in CC.
Sure, maybe the fluff for your character has him as being super tough, or extensively bionic. The argument I would make though is from a purely table-top/rules perspective. Why give him EW? The honest answer in most cases is simply that people don't want their character to die to the first power fist. Sadly, this isn't a good reason to include EW as a rule for a character. The precedence for EW is set kinda weird, but its generally limited to 1-2 marine character for codices.
I mean, Calgar, who is almost all bionic and a God of War, is T4 with no EW. Dante, who's also likely significantly replaced by machine, is still lacking EW. The overwhelming vast majority of every marine character to have every graced a 40k codex has done so without EW.
And so many of us who frequent this board to help with proposed rules often find the same mistakes repeated over and over again. EW is one of them. Your character would be fine (and cheaper) without EW, and your opponents would be more welcoming to a character that is less durable.
Every custom rule you make should be done while keeping in mind that you'll be playing it against someone, and they should find it as fun as you do. Dropping EW will help your opponent warm up to a new special character, as it can be one shotted by a missile or power fist.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Chapter Master Franco 'El Sanchez of the Southern Dynasty marines chapter
Standard chapter master profile/w artificer armor, power fist, and the Emulcifier.
Precision strike: Replace combat tactics with the following. All units that deep strike only scatter 1d6 inch's when they enter from reserves. All shooting for the first turn when they enter play counts as twin linked.
The Emulcifier is a lightning claw with a special Combi-plasma effect to it. Once per game you fire a flamer template that hits with Str7 AP2 "gets hot".
200pts
JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG
I love how people get condescending when people question their homemade character. I get it. It is your character and you don't want some jerk like me criticizing it, but when you put it up here, that's asking for criticism. And now you're getting it.
At least this time you at least gave something closer to an actual explanation. Extensive bionics is at least a reason. It isn't a terribly -good- reason, but it is a reason. It's a quick, cheap explanation as to you not wanting your special character to get chunked by the first failed invul save. Well...sorry, but I think that whole line is pretty silly. I could go into the fluff and explain how extensive bionics don't really matter all that much (as Blacksails has said, Calgar and Dante), and really, if 'extensive bionics' were really solid, then every single Warpsmith, Iron Warrior and possibly Techmarine would fall under that umbrella. So it just doesn't hold as much water as you'd like it to.
But this is a pointless back-and-forth. You're not really open to criticism or getting his rules right, and you're more interested in posting it to show how awesome your guy is, not get him balanced.
curran12 wrote: I don't see how a variation on chapter organization and doing a lot of missions suddenly makes your character immune to being obliterated by a lascannon. I guarantee you that guys like Dante have more experience than your guy, and they don't get EW.
Boy, you are looking this situation with a black-and-white lens, mate.
First of all, we can agree that all Astartes are unique. Even though Cassius has become adamantine hard during the battles against Tyranids, and Lysander laughs at lascannon shots, not all highly experienced people get high toughness, Eternal Warrior, or similar that'd make him tough as steel - like Dante or Kantor. It's a chance, for which also affects the mentality and willpower of the character. Some men lose the power to live easier when mortally wounded, while some are too stubborn to die.
But even though I'd give you the answer right our from my fluff, I am having a feeling that you'd return it back too. But I stand as a patient man, and tell this to you - nice and simple:
Extensive bionics, mate, look into it. After taking enough blows and had enough bones broken and limbs torn off, they get replaced with metallic counterparts. Most of his skull and chest have been replaced with adamantine-plasteel alloy plating. You think those implants just happened to pop onto his body by rolling eyes and whistling in the Reclusiam all day long?
...And what comes to "doing a lot of missions", which "suddenly" makes characters stronger... yeah, I've yet to meet an Astartes with notably high resilience, who has only fought in practice battles and seen little to zero days of real warfare.
No offence intended - I only return fire.
I hope we're finally done here.
Wow. You do know that if you had said "he has an insane amount of bionic augmentations, many of which perform redundant tasks so if his torso gets removed via Railgun he can still function sans torso" you wouldn't have needed to type out two essay posts.
Oh, and by the way, no Necron character has Eternal Warrior. And they are 100% bionic.
They manage to get up off the floor after that Railgun removes their torso, bear that in mind
Experience is something you get just after you need it The Narkos Dynasty - 15k Iron Hands - 12k The Shadewatch - 3k Cadmus Outriders - 4k Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k
In regards to the above point - I agree, people asked why it has Eternal Warrior, and your response was 'Oh, there's a fluff justification.. but I won't tell you, so because I said so', when so, so many things don't have it.
Then you get defensive when people call you on it.
Anyway, lets do a review of this.
Tigramans wrote:This character has been picked from the fluff of my Chapter, the Instigators - proud 3rd Founding descendant of Dorn:
Spoiler:
CAPTAIN RYGAN LEONARDUS...............................................200 Points Captain of the Instigators 3rd Company
WS6 | BS5 | S4 | T4 | W3 | I5 | A3 | Ld10 | Sv2+
Unit Composition: • 1 (Unique)
Unit Type: • Infantry
WARGEAR: • Artificer armour • Frag and krak grenades • Master-crafted plasma pistol • Power sword • Iron halo
SPECIAL RULES: • And They Shall Know No Fear • Combat Tactics • Independent Character • Company Tactics • Eternal Warrior
SPECIAL RULES:
Company Tactics: Under the command of Captain Leonardus, the third company of Instigators has an honourable history of successful campaigns that has not escaped the attention of their Chapter Master. Leonardus has always stood as a stalwart and resourceful leader to inspire all. If your army includes Rygan Leonardus, then up to two units in your army will exchange their Combat Tactics into Heroic Intervention. Company Tactics is an equivalent to Chapter Tactics special rule, thus if more than one unit in your army has Chapter Tactics rule, you must choose which version will apply.
WARGEAR:
Options: • Leonardus may replace his plasma pistol and power sword with Judgement of Galileias for +30 pts. The Judgement of Galileias is a master-crafted thunder hammer. It grants the wielder Preferred enemy (Chaos Space Marines) special rule, and all hits from it are resolved at Strength 9.
This character has been used a few times on the table, and none of the opponents have said it's overpowered... at least yet FYI: he will be the only Eternal Warrior of my characters, I tend to keep that special rule scarce, otherwise it'd look ridiculous to have 'em plenty.
...Except with Eldar... I've heard they've got EIGHT of them... <___<
For the Thunder Hammer upgrade, Thunder Hammers are 25pts, +10 for Master Crafted, +5 for Preferend Enemy, +10 for +1Str, making it a 50pt weapon, replacing 30pts of gear, so should be a 20pt upgrade instead of 30.
Furthermore, as far as I can tell, this is a Codex: Space Marines character, while the Heroic Intervention rule is from Codex: Blood Angels. Therefore it would need to be listed in the characters Special Rules as it's from another book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/29 22:50:27
curran12 wrote: I don't see how a variation on chapter organization and doing a lot of missions suddenly makes your character immune to being obliterated by a lascannon. I guarantee you that guys like Dante have more experience than your guy, and they don't get EW.
Boy, you are looking this situation with a black-and-white lens, mate.
First of all, we can agree that all Astartes are unique. Even though Cassius has become adamantine hard during the battles against Tyranids, and Lysander laughs at lascannon shots, not all highly experienced people get high toughness, Eternal Warrior, or similar that'd make him tough as steel - like Dante or Kantor. It's a chance, for which also affects the mentality and willpower of the character. Some men lose the power to live easier when mortally wounded, while some are too stubborn to die.
But even though I'd give you the answer right our from my fluff, I am having a feeling that you'd return it back too. But I stand as a patient man, and tell this to you - nice and simple:
Extensive bionics, mate, look into it. After taking enough blows and had enough bones broken and limbs torn off, they get replaced with metallic counterparts. Most of his skull and chest have been replaced with adamantine-plasteel alloy plating. You think those implants just happened to pop onto his body by rolling eyes and whistling in the Reclusiam all day long?
...And what comes to "doing a lot of missions", which "suddenly" makes characters stronger... yeah, I've yet to meet an Astartes with notably high resilience, who has only fought in practice battles and seen little to zero days of real warfare.
No offence intended - I only return fire.
I hope we're finally done here.
Put this in context. You are talking about the background of a fictional, homemade character in a fictional game in a non-existent universe. Please put it in perspective!
Ovion wrote: In regards to the above point - I agree, people asked why it has Eternal Warrior, and your response was 'Oh, there's a fluff justification.. but I won't tell you, so because I said so', when so, so many things don't have it.
Then you get defensive when people call you on it.
Anyway, lets do a review of this.
Tigramans wrote:This character has been picked from the fluff of my Chapter, the Instigators - proud 3rd Founding descendant of Dorn:
Spoiler:
CAPTAIN RYGAN LEONARDUS...............................................200 Points
Captain of the Instigators 3rd Company
WS6 | BS5 | S4 | T4 | W3 | I5 | A3 | Ld10 | Sv2+
Unit Composition: • 1 (Unique)
Unit Type: • Infantry
WARGEAR: • Artificer armour
• Frag and krak grenades
• Master-crafted plasma pistol
• Power sword
• Iron halo
SPECIAL RULES: • And They Shall Know No Fear
• Combat Tactics
• Independent Character
• Company Tactics
• Eternal Warrior
SPECIAL RULES:
Company Tactics: Under the command of Captain Leonardus, the third company of Instigators has an honourable history of successful campaigns that has not escaped the attention of their Chapter Master. Leonardus has always stood as a stalwart and resourceful leader to inspire all.
If your army includes Rygan Leonardus, then up to two units in your army will exchange their Combat Tactics into Heroic Intervention. Company Tactics is an equivalent to Chapter Tactics special rule, thus if more than one unit in your army has Chapter Tactics rule, you must choose which version will apply.
WARGEAR:
Options: • Leonardus may replace his plasma pistol and power sword with Judgement of Galileias for +30 pts. The Judgement of Galileias is a master-crafted thunder hammer. It grants the wielder Preferred enemy (Chaos Space Marines) special rule, and all hits from it are resolved at Strength 9.
This character has been used a few times on the table, and none of the opponents have said it's overpowered... at least yet FYI: he will be the only Eternal Warrior of my characters, I tend to keep that special rule scarce, otherwise it'd look ridiculous to have 'em plenty.
...Except with Eldar... I've heard they've got EIGHT of them... <___<
For the Thunder Hammer upgrade, Thunder Hammers are 25pts, +10 for Master Crafted, +5 for Preferend Enemy, +10 for +1Str, making it a 50pt weapon, replacing 30pts of gear, so should be a 20pt upgrade instead of 30.
Furthermore, as far as I can tell, this is a Codex: Space Marines character, while the Heroic Intervention rule is from Codex: Blood Angels. Therefore it would need to be listed in the characters Special Rules as it's from another book.
Forgive me if wrong but I believe Vanguard Veterans Actually have Heroic Intervention as well (or perhaps I am mixing it up?)
Blacksails wrote: Tigramans, curran12's point is that your first answer to his query had nothing to do with the question. I agree with him.
He asked why your character has eternal warrior, and you answered with something unrelated about the organization of your chapter. It was quite confusing and didn't make a lot of sense.
Had you answered originally that he had extensive bionics, it would have made sense.
However, I must point out that a very healthy portion of fan-made marine characters have EW. Every person who makes such a character justifies with something like bionics/he's super tough!/he almost died but lived!/I don't want him to die in CC.
Sure, maybe the fluff for your character has him as being super tough, or extensively bionic. The argument I would make though is from a purely table-top/rules perspective. Why give him EW? The honest answer in most cases is simply that people don't want their character to die to the first power fist. Sadly, this isn't a good reason to include EW as a rule for a character. The precedence for EW is set kinda weird, but its generally limited to 1-2 marine character for codices.
I mean, Calgar, who is almost all bionic and a God of War, is T4 with no EW. Dante, who's also likely significantly replaced by machine, is still lacking EW. The overwhelming vast majority of every marine character to have every graced a 40k codex has done so without EW.
And so many of us who frequent this board to help with proposed rules often find the same mistakes repeated over and over again. EW is one of them. Your character would be fine (and cheaper) without EW, and your opponents would be more welcoming to a character that is less durable.
Every custom rule you make should be done while keeping in mind that you'll be playing it against someone, and they should find it as fun as you do. Dropping EW will help your opponent warm up to a new special character, as it can be one shotted by a missile or power fist.
Maybe I should have also mentioned how it was about balance issues - that character is the only EW of the bunch. Not only from fluff perspective, but also crunch-wise, I wished to create a durable all-rounder character, that doesn't get humiliated by newer codex tricks too easily to even out the situation. It appears that it's an incorrect approach, according to this community.
I have empathy upon your hatred about "a very healthy portion of fan-made marine characters" that have have EW, and understand it. However, I didn't expect such aggressive responses - but that's all about getting accustomed to, since I am still quite new here. My first reaction was, that "gee, people are really butthurt about a single EW, I wonder why."
Now I know why.
And I apologise for running around the real answer; I understood that your questions would lead to responses, such as: "Yeah, that's why it's OP. Get out."
But what comes to Calgar, he DOES have EW.
But now, let me give you a question: What would you replace the EW rule with, or would you simply remove it?
Commander Duskblade
Not every scion of the ferocious Brightsword lineage are given the honor of donning the original battlesuit of their progenitor. Nonetheless, they are all equally belligerent and thirsty for battle. Known for his brutal close-quarter assaults, Duskblade was given one of the few Iridium battlesuit brought to the Enclaves with fellow commander partner Torchstar. It has proven vital in the many combats he has been in with his line's specially commissioned experimental weapons.
Custom Fusion Blades are treated as regular Fusion Blades except they replace the Power Outage rule with Power Shortage. Before rolling for hits with the weapon in melee, roll a d6. On a 1, they count as a normal ccw for that assault phase.
Blacksails wrote: Tigramans, curran12's point is that your first answer to his query had nothing to do with the question. I agree with him.
He asked why your character has eternal warrior, and you answered with something unrelated about the organization of your chapter. It was quite confusing and didn't make a lot of sense.
Had you answered originally that he had extensive bionics, it would have made sense.
However, I must point out that a very healthy portion of fan-made marine characters have EW. Every person who makes such a character justifies with something like bionics/he's super tough!/he almost died but lived!/I don't want him to die in CC.
Sure, maybe the fluff for your character has him as being super tough, or extensively bionic. The argument I would make though is from a purely table-top/rules perspective. Why give him EW? The honest answer in most cases is simply that people don't want their character to die to the first power fist. Sadly, this isn't a good reason to include EW as a rule for a character. The precedence for EW is set kinda weird, but its generally limited to 1-2 marine character for codices.
I mean, Calgar, who is almost all bionic and a God of War, is T4 with no EW. Dante, who's also likely significantly replaced by machine, is still lacking EW. The overwhelming vast majority of every marine character to have every graced a 40k codex has done so without EW.
And so many of us who frequent this board to help with proposed rules often find the same mistakes repeated over and over again. EW is one of them. Your character would be fine (and cheaper) without EW, and your opponents would be more welcoming to a character that is less durable.
Every custom rule you make should be done while keeping in mind that you'll be playing it against someone, and they should find it as fun as you do. Dropping EW will help your opponent warm up to a new special character, as it can be one shotted by a missile or power fist.
Maybe I should have also mentioned how it was about balance issues - that character is the only EW of the bunch. Not only from fluff perspective, but also crunch-wise, I wished to create a durable all-rounder character, that doesn't get humiliated by newer codex tricks too easily to even out the situation. It appears that it's an incorrect approach, according to this community.
I have empathy upon your hatred about "a very healthy portion of fan-made marine characters" that have have EW, and understand it. However, I didn't expect such aggressive responses - but that's all about getting accustomed to, since I am still quite new here. My first reaction was, that "gee, people are really butthurt about a single EW, I wonder why."
Now I know why.
And I apologise for running around the real answer; I understood that your questions would lead to responses, such as: "Yeah, that's why it's OP. Get out."
But what comes to Calgar, he DOES have EW.
But now, let me give you a question: What would you replace the EW rule with, or would you simply remove it?
Perhaps enhanced toughness? Forgive me if wrong but isn't there some form of bionics that increases toughness? Whilst T5 has some drawbacks, still killed by S10, you get a high invuln save and S10 shots tend to either be a one shot (or one blast) or are on MC/mechas that will often have to give up all but 3 attacks to hit you with. WS's wonky 3+ (and a WS of 6 tying with certain MCLoC) meaning some hit on a 4+ likely failing 1-2 and then the (let us assume 2 make it) 2 wounds you roll 2 invulns with a half chance of surviving. Gives you a way to show your guy is a tough dude that even laughs at lasgun fire whilst avoiding the stigma of eternal warrior (drawback being majority toughness but then again challenges help change that up). If this is a bad idea, I apologize. Whilst I've been thinking of making my own unique characters for IG, CSM, and SM as I've made DIY chapters, I haven't been confident in my balancing abilities to actually begin the process and am relatively novice at trying to balance the model.
Perhaps enhanced toughness? Forgive me if wrong but isn't there some form of bionics that increases toughness? Whilst T5 has some drawbacks, still killed by S10, you get a high invuln save and S10 shots tend to either be a one shot (or one blast) or are on MC/mechas that will often have to give up all but 3 attacks to hit you with. WS's wonky 3+ (and a WS of 6 tying with certain MCLoC) meaning some hit on a 4+ likely failing 1-2 and then the (let us assume 2 make it) 2 wounds you roll 2 invulns with a half chance of surviving. Gives you a way to show your guy is a tough dude that even laughs at lasgun fire whilst avoiding the stigma of eternal warrior (drawback being majority toughness but then again challenges help change that up). If this is a bad idea, I apologize. Whilst I've been thinking of making my own unique characters for IG, CSM, and SM as I've made DIY chapters, I haven't been confident in my balancing abilities to actually begin the process and am relatively novice at trying to balance the model.
This sounds an interesting concept. But that raises another question to my mind: would Toughness 6 be too much? If yes, then have a look at Chaplain Cassius, for example. That HQ has a combi-weapon with hellfire rounds, and Feel No Pain. AND he costs ONLY 125 points? WTF? I'd have paid at least 175-200 points for such an insane beast! MEQ's will wound him on 6+, and he's not impressed by the lascannon fire, as he can easily work as a damage sponge for the blender squad that's following him. Point taken, he hits like any other chaplain, and wounds like any other chaplain, but TOUGHNESS 6 makes him nigh-invulnerable, and his only weakness is anything bearing the Instant Death special rule, which is a scarce sight on the table. This Toughness 6 is like the poor man's EW.
Toughness 5 sounds reasonable. I have to remember that.
And what comes to creating your own characters, I also struggle with balancing issues, but I'd also like to keep the characters survivable enough to keep on with the brand new "ahead of their time" codices, like Tau or Eldar, which power level is WAY higher than the Vanilla Marines'...
I have confidence to show my ideas and see what people think of them. Deserved or not, I received answers. Yours, by far, sounds the friendliest. I wished for a civilised, mature, non-insulting discussion - but looks like it's too much to demand from the community.
I thank you from your response.
Blacksails wrote: Tigramans, curran12's point is that your first answer to his query had nothing to do with the question. I agree with him.
He asked why your character has eternal warrior, and you answered with something unrelated about the organization of your chapter. It was quite confusing and didn't make a lot of sense.
Had you answered originally that he had extensive bionics, it would have made sense.
However, I must point out that a very healthy portion of fan-made marine characters have EW. Every person who makes such a character justifies with something like bionics/he's super tough!/he almost died but lived!/I don't want him to die in CC.
Sure, maybe the fluff for your character has him as being super tough, or extensively bionic. The argument I would make though is from a purely table-top/rules perspective. Why give him EW? The honest answer in most cases is simply that people don't want their character to die to the first power fist. Sadly, this isn't a good reason to include EW as a rule for a character. The precedence for EW is set kinda weird, but its generally limited to 1-2 marine character for codices.
I mean, Calgar, who is almost all bionic and a God of War, is T4 with no EW. Dante, who's also likely significantly replaced by machine, is still lacking EW. The overwhelming vast majority of every marine character to have every graced a 40k codex has done so without EW.
And so many of us who frequent this board to help with proposed rules often find the same mistakes repeated over and over again. EW is one of them. Your character would be fine (and cheaper) without EW, and your opponents would be more welcoming to a character that is less durable.
Every custom rule you make should be done while keeping in mind that you'll be playing it against someone, and they should find it as fun as you do. Dropping EW will help your opponent warm up to a new special character, as it can be one shotted by a missile or power fist.
Maybe I should have also mentioned how it was about balance issues - that character is the only EW of the bunch. Not only from fluff perspective, but also crunch-wise, I wished to create a durable all-rounder character, that doesn't get humiliated by newer codex tricks too easily to even out the situation. It appears that it's an incorrect approach, according to this community.
I have empathy upon your hatred about "a very healthy portion of fan-made marine characters" that have have EW, and understand it. However, I didn't expect such aggressive responses - but that's all about getting accustomed to, since I am still quite new here. My first reaction was, that "gee, people are really butthurt about a single EW, I wonder why."
Now I know why.
And I apologise for running around the real answer; I understood that your questions would lead to responses, such as: "Yeah, that's why it's OP. Get out."
But what comes to Calgar, he DOES have EW.
But now, let me give you a question: What would you replace the EW rule with, or would you simply remove it?
You're right, people like myself and curran12 are just 'butthurt', 'overly aggressive' and want you to simply 'get out'.
Please, my response to you was beyond civil, and I'm trying to help you understand how to create fun and balanced characters that don't involve slathering EW and a dozen special rules.
This community is filled with a lot of people with a lot of experience that genuinely tries and help people understand how to balance things properly and keep OP units in check. Not for our benefit; we're never gonna play against you or your creations. We do it so you don't roll up to your shop with a laughably OP character and have a terrible game where your opponent is miserable about an OP marine character.
The problem a lot of us face is that the moment we point out someone should drop a rule or piece of wargear or modify something, nearly everyone immediately becomes defensive and starts calling names, or other such nonsense. In your case, its calling us butthurt, overly aggressive, and making yourself out to be the victim.
You're more than welcome to do this, but understand that feedback like mine was polite, well explained and reasoned. If you can't deal with feedback like this in a reasonable manner without using the words 'butthurt' in your response, I suggest maybe this forum isn't for you. The feedback doesn't have to 'positive' (no one has to like it, necessarily), but as long as its constructive and people aren't making an ass of themselves, its welcome on this board.
Also, Calgar does have EW. I must have had him confused with some other Ultra character. My apologies.
Anyways, as for your other reason about balance between your other characters. Remember that your opponents won't care if he's the only guy with EW; as they'll likely only be playing against one your characters at a time. Frankly, EW is one of those rules where only a tiny fraction of characters should ever have it. It should be exceedingly rare for a custom character to have it, as most custom characters should be rather simple variations of the SM Captain with one or two cool rules that fluff out your chapter.
You're certainly free to ignore us, but understand that EW is not a special rule you just slap on because why not. Imagine facing someone's Ork army with an EW Warboss with a few special tricks (think Ghazzy but cheaper and without the 2++ for a turn). It'd probably get old really quick.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
If you switched Eternal Warrior for something like 'Extensive Bionics' that grants +1T bringing him to T5, that'd be fine, give the extra defence stated above (making him only vulnerable to Str10 and Instant Death weapons).
In that case, you could drop the cost from 220 to 195. (or call it 200 like you initially had) Which would make him 215 (220) with the Hammer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/30 14:25:00
Just because it is not feedback you like to see, Tiger, doesn't make it unfriendly. I don't waste time giving "A+ for effort" or meaningless praise where it is not due. It's too bad that you are unwilling to face that without copping such a confrontational attitude. Here's some food for thought; if I was being unfriendly, why am I taking this much time to give you a researched explanation?
I like the constructive process, but I dislike those who see criticism as some kind of personal attack. If all you wanted was your character to be praised, this is not the place for it. Check your ego at the door, and lose the aggressive tactics.
You're right, people like myself and curran12 are just 'butthurt', 'overly aggressive' and want you to simply 'get out'.
Please, my response to you was beyond civil, and I'm trying to help you understand how to create fun and balanced characters that don't involve slathering EW and a dozen special rules.
This community is filled with a lot of people with a lot of experience that genuinely tries and help people understand how to balance things properly and keep OP units in check. Not for our benefit; we're never gonna play against you or your creations. We do it so you don't roll up to your shop with a laughably OP character and have a terrible game where your opponent is miserable about an OP marine character.
The problem a lot of us face is that the moment we point out someone should drop a rule or piece of wargear or modify something, nearly everyone immediately becomes defensive and starts calling names, or other such nonsense. In your case, its calling us butthurt, overly aggressive, and making yourself out to be the victim.
You're more than welcome to do this, but understand that feedback like mine was polite, well explained and reasoned. If you can't deal with feedback like this in a reasonable manner without using the words 'butthurt' in your response, I suggest maybe this forum isn't for you. The feedback doesn't have to 'positive' (no one has to like it, necessarily), but as long as its constructive and people aren't making an ass of themselves, its welcome on this board.
Also, Calgar does have EW. I must have had him confused with some other Ultra character. My apologies.
Anyways, as for your other reason about balance between your other characters. Remember that your opponents won't care if he's the only guy with EW; as they'll likely only be playing against one your characters at a time. Frankly, EW is one of those rules where only a tiny fraction of characters should ever have it. It should be exceedingly rare for a custom character to have it, as most custom characters should be rather simple variations of the SM Captain with one or two cool rules that fluff out your chapter.
You're certainly free to ignore us, but understand that EW is not a special rule you just slap on because why not. Imagine facing someone's Ork army with an EW Warboss with a few special tricks (think Ghazzy but cheaper and without the 2++ for a turn). It'd probably get old really quick.
What I've read other codices (and even the newest ones, like Eldar), writers have recently - contrary to the claims of trying to drop the amount of EW rules off the characters, the Eldar have gained a bunch of them...
Your comment truly was polite, I had no problems with it at all. Curran12 just rushed through my mental barriers beyond expectations (and I lost my Fearless special rule ).
I didn't have in mind to create a cheesy character, our mileage simply varied, as we valued that special rule in a different scale. I shall definetely change it to +1T.
I can't be that heartless that I'd ignore people. It's just a matter of time, when I "blend in" to the crew. It's all about getting used to the local culture, as they vary a lot - especially on the international level.
It is said, that you are allowed to make mistakes, but not repeat them. I've learned from them, and now I am a wiser guy.
On the other hand, I don't want to see complimentary praising NOR discouraging bashing - all I wish is constructively neutral, careful and polite discussion.
curran12 wrote: Just because it is not feedback you like to see, Tiger, doesn't make it unfriendly. I don't waste time giving "A+ for effort" or meaningless praise where it is not due. It's too bad that you are unwilling to face that without copping such a confrontational attitude. Here's some food for thought; if I was being unfriendly, why am I taking this much time to give you a researched explanation?
I like the constructive process, but I dislike those who see criticism as some kind of personal attack. If all you wanted was your character to be praised, this is not the place for it. Check your ego at the door, and lose the aggressive tactics.
It is most possible that your choice of words turned my defences on, and that blame's on me - I have a little trauma on forum experiences around the internet... which has turned me defensive. I'll do my best to get over it.
Your criticism is accepted, but it still has a certain aggressive tone to it. You could have said things nicer - without being rude.
That might also be that I don't know you, and I don't trust you - neither I trust anyone around here. I don't know anyone yet, for the Emperor's sake, that's why these kind of misinterpretations occur.
No hard feelings - honestly.
I can only thank you for opening my eyes a bit - and apologise once again.
...And it's Tigra, not "tiger"
[EDIT: A good example of a constructive response in a neutral tone - and right into the point:]
Ovion wrote: If you switched Eternal Warrior for something like 'Extensive Bionics' that grants +1T bringing him to T5, that'd be fine, give the extra defence stated above (making him only vulnerable to Str10 and Instant Death weapons).
In that case, you could drop the cost from 220 to 195. (or call it 200 like you initially had)
Which would make him 215 (220) with the Hammer.
Thank you, Ovion. I will do that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/30 18:54:15
Phoenix Lord Zandros, The bladed Hurricane. 240pts?
Ws8
Bs8
S4
T4
W3
I8
A4
Ld10
Save 2+
For the record, bump in stats aren't because this phoenix lord is better then the others. Its because I think all phoenix lords should have this stat line. They should be better in combat then a lowly Archon and at least match an assassin.
Wargear. Phoenix armour, plasma grenades,
Remnants of glory
Slicing Orbs of Zandros. Ancient, battered silver orbs are inset into the phoenix lords amour. When battle calls these orbs, beckoned by Zandros's psykic stimuli, begin to orbit Zandros akin to a small moon. Zandros then orders the orbs to fly amongst the seething masses of interlopers and then they explode in a scintillating flash of blades which leaves enemies in bloody chunks.
Range18 Str 5 Ap -assault 2,blast, pinning, rending.
or Range Melee, Strength +1, Ap -, rending, Bladed rotation*
* Zandros inflicts an automatic hit on any enemy model in base contact with him, as well as making his normal attacks.
Warlord traint: Mark of the incomparable hunter
Special Rules:
Ancient doom, battle focus, Eternal warrior, Fearless, Fear, Fleet, Independent character, Psyker (mastery level 2), SoulFire.
SoulFire.Every phoenix lord's armour invariably contains the souls of thousands of powerful exarchs, each spirit coalesced into the greater spirit of the armour much akin to a miniature infinity circuit. This gives the phoenix lord a deep well of psykic power to draw upon with surrounds the Lords warp shadow in blazing soulfire which absorbs and reflects foul Magiks,
The phoenix lord has the Adamantium Will USR and for each successful deny the witch attempted rolled by the phoenix lord the psyker that attempted the power must take a blinding test, as well as any enemy daemons or psykers within 6 inches.
Can only choose powers on the telekinesis table.
Exarch Powers
Fast shot, Course of blades*
Grants a 4+ cover save to Exarch against any weapon blow strength 8, by way of the mystical orbs blocking the blow or obscuring the target.
The Aspect has been mentioned a few times and I think they deserve a phoenix lord. I imagine the aspect to use there psykic powers to levitate bladed spinning orbs to throw at the enemy of use in combat. I figured that 3 small blasts at AP - wont be OP, and his melee is decidedly worse then all the other lords, but the real difference is the level 2 psyker, of a fairly mediocre table, but its still a big difference. I think all phoenix lords should get SoulFire and Fear because of there towering psykic presence. Each eldar soul is a psyker, and a phoenix lord is made up of thousands of them.
Not entirely sure on the price though, maybe someone could help me out?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/30 19:45:44
What I've read other codices (and even the newest ones, like Eldar), writers have recently - contrary to the claims of trying to drop the amount of EW rules off the characters, the Eldar have gained a bunch of them...
Your comment truly was polite, I had no problems with it at all. Curran12 just rushed through my mental barriers beyond expectations (and I lost my Fearless special rule ).
I didn't have in mind to create a cheesy character, our mileage simply varied, as we valued that special rule in a different scale. I shall definetely change it to +1T.
I can't be that heartless that I'd ignore people. It's just a matter of time, when I "blend in" to the crew. It's all about getting used to the local culture, as they vary a lot - especially on the international level.
It is said, that you are allowed to make mistakes, but not repeat them. I've learned from them, and now I am a wiser guy.
On the other hand, I don't want to see complimentary praising NOR discouraging bashing - all I wish is constructively neutral, careful and polite discussion.
Well I appreciate your understanding; people like myself and Curran12 don't post long and reasoned arguments because we want to make you feel like a horrible, worthless individual. We do it because it helps you understand for future characters/units. Granted, not everyone will sugarcoat feedback, and quite often users here will just be blunt about it and state what's wrong, why, and likely how to fix it. Then again, it is the internet, and it is a text format, so emotions and subtle nuances of speech don't translate well sometimes.
No one's asking you to 'blend in' either. All of us who frequent this board have distinct styles and think differently.
Now for the technical part of my poast.
If its of any help, only one character in C:CSM has EW, and he's the big guy; Abaddon. Surprisingly, no one in the DA book have EW. The Eldar have a selection of EW characters, certainly, but they were like that in the last book too. Its been well established fluff that Phoenix Lords can never truly be killed, something like their spirits live on in their armour and lend their experience to the new 'version' of them...or something. Anyways, point is, only the Phoenix Lords have EW, and they used to be represented as a condensed HQ choice in the 4th ed book.
So really, EW is still as rare as its ever been. Now, I'd always rather see something like FnP instead of EW to represent some sort of super durability. I'm always skeptical of T5, but if its just T5 with no other special rules or other stat line changes, it should be reasonable. Makes you more resilient against standard weapons, but an Ork Nob or Boss on the charge still has the chance to krump you real good. Or ID weapons.
List under his special rules something like "More machine than man - Buddy keeps forgetting to wear his helmet and has consequently had his cranium restructured several times, always avoiding death. His extensive bionics grant him an additional point of toughness, included in his profile.
Just to be clear, his heroic intervention rule only applies to jump pack infantry; like ASM or Vanguard vets, correct?
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
Correction: Sammael has! The Adamantine Mantle gives him an EW special rule.
Blacksails wrote: The Eldar have a selection of EW characters, certainly, but they were like that in the last book too. Its been well established fluff that Phoenix Lords can never truly be killed, something like their spirits live on in their armour and lend their experience to the new 'version' of them...or something. Anyways, point is, only the Phoenix Lords have EW, and they used to be represented as a condensed HQ choice in the 4th ed book.
Allright, now I understand why they all have that.
Blacksails wrote: I'm always skeptical of T5, but if its just T5 with no other special rules or other stat line changes, it should be reasonable. Makes you more resilient against standard weapons, but an Ork Nob or Boss on the charge still has the chance to krump you real good. Or ID weapons.
That's my intention. See my earlier post, I'm going to replace his EW with T5... and possibly increase his special hammer cost into 30-40 points.
Blacksails wrote: Just to be clear, his heroic intervention rule only applies to jump pack infantry; like ASM or Vanguard vets, correct?
His Heroic Intervention special rule was meant to apply ANY two units the player chooses - as long as they've got the Combat Tactics rule. Should this also sound ridiculous, I can change it too - like reduce it to a single unit... or revamp the rule completely.
Innocentia Nihil Probat. 
Son of Dorn 
The Narkos Dynasty - 15k
Iron Hands - 12k 
The Shadewatch - 3k 
Cadmus Outriders - 4k 
Alpha Legion Raiders - 3k 
/ 
1690
WIP (1875)
1300
WIP (350)
WIP (150) 
