Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Don't apologise for walls of text. These sorts of conversations are interesting (well, they're interesting to me at least).

 Ehsteve wrote:
Are you telling me that whilst other systems enjoy dedicated vehicle rules that suddenly BC is incapable or unfit for vehicle rules? Seem like more of a cop-out than a valid argument.

I never said BC was “incapable” or “unfit” for vehicle rules, only that I don’t see it as a necessity. Vehicle rules are a “nice to have” for all the RPG systems except for Only War where they are obviously core.

Look at Chaos, they have no many interesting and not to mention living vehicles. Helldrakes, Hellbrutes (stupidly names but nonetheless kinda intriguing to be seen in gameplay) and the fact that daemons live inside of these machines makes them the PERFECT book to do all kinds of weird things with the vehicle rules. Rhinos with bird wings, Land Raiders covered in eyes, a Predator that every now and then lets off a loud fart, the possibilities are endless.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
A single roll should not determine something with so many factors beyond its rarity. Give them even as a suggestion to the GM or as an alternate system. Put in a table of determinants such as planet, economy, size of black market, depth of chaos influence and other factors to make it a bit more involved than the DM tossing the players a roll every now and then which is so very, very binary. Players should be far more involved like adding elements of intimidation or bargaining rather than 'oh hey, I know that guy, here, have a bolter' (simplified, yes and I know you will try to break this example down but it's no more over the top than your usual rhetoric).

Except that a single roll determines this in basically all the other 40K RPGs, so why does BC specifically annoy you here?
Besides, there’s nothing stopping you from using bartering/commerce abilities or other interaction skills.

Except that in RPGs you are supposed to blur that binary line we see so much in tabletop wargames and skirmishes. It breaks things down to their most basic level, still abstracted (as realism kills the game) but this kind of depth would only add to the game, not detract from it. Every chaos agent doesn't pick up a galaxy map, point at a random planet and say "see that? We're so going to invade that". You should be able to class planets and be able to create a complex situation which the players have to find the best way to solve, a basic template for the system involving a table and flowchart should encompass the process.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
It does not mean it cannot be quantified, put in depth or otherwise explained. Give examples of either lone or collaborative Dark Mechanicum systems and the kinds they might encounter, what they might want (see: economy) and create actual interaction beyond another single, utterly bland roll.

But this is GW fluff. It revels in how vague it can be. The only way the Dark Mechanicum would ever be quantified is if GW decided to make an army out of them (ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease!). Now that might sound like a cop-out, but it is the reality of the situation.

There is some truth in this, but we're talking about possible sole traders or the like. You can already play one, so why not simply justify them as essentially a group of PCs working in tandem or alone who are really good at crafting items and have their own connections. Sometimes they work for technology, sometimes for resources, something it's just because you're terrifying. However a single roll is most definitely not the way to represent you going up to a member of the dark mechanicus and them simply popping out a suit of forgotten technology like it was nothing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
I would very much disagree with you here. It will give some players something to work and allow GMs the ability to work in legion/warband relations for a more immersive experience. More options to work with, less work for the GM, more power to the player, more ideas and content. It would at least be a very interesting work through of the process.

Do you want players’ end goals to be “Become a Marine!”? The goal of Black Crusade is to achieve apotheosis and avoid spawndom. Those are pretty lofty goals. I wouldn’t be opposed to a book that shifted the focus to people becoming Chaos Marines, but that’s an expansion, something that’d be cool to have, but I wouldn’t want the game’s main focus to be that.

That is an *example* of what players can aspire to. Give them more avenues, give players aspirations rather than simply reacting to the circumstances. Someone wants to become a marine? Let them look through the trials, get enough infamy, raise through the ranks and prove themselves. What if a you have a techpriest wanting to become a magos in the eyes of terror, does he have to go through a political process, is it backstabbing, is it just resources, does he require allies or can he just set up shop and declare himself king of the friggin universe!?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
The focus upon god-specific abilities and daemons rather than attempting to really define or get even a broad concept of undivided chaos. What it means to be undivided, the reasoning behind this decision rather than going in depth about devotion to the main 4.

I should say that all the books so far contain archetypes (even CSM ones) that begin the game unaligned.

All that means is that the starting pack is in equal amounts of everything so that you're leaning towards no god. Whoopdeedoo. Now you're going to have to carefully manage that through a series of arbitrarily-aligned skills and talents or else suddenly one god likes you, some hate you and your costing changes at the drop of a hat. A devotion should be active, not passive. When I become good in melee suddenly it's impossible to get good dodge-based skills.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
More options, more ideas, less work for the GM and more power to the player in terms of selecting content. Suddenly you have this broad range of choices rather than pigeon-holing all of your starting skills and talents into the main archetypes (which I still to this day begrudge due to their lack of initial starting freedom regardless of how much you can fluff around later).

Ok, there are, what, 8 archetypes in the main book, 4 in ToF, 4 in ToB and 4 in ToE. That’s 20 different archetypes so far. So really they’re already doing what you’re asking here, they just haven’t make the ones that you personally want (corrupt Arbite, etc.).

Hardly, the basic idea of archetypes is ridiculous for humans. I am debating the arbitrary skills and XP spent on the player's behalf. Give them more flexibility at the start and reign it in during the middle and late game because it suddenly goes from tight control to all over the friggin' place. What they should do is get a basic archetype, and apply a certain secondary set of skills on top of it as an optional starting package (like a discount bulk deal) or give you the XP to spend yourself rather than letting it decide for you. More power to the player.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
It would be impossible to throw this in even as a tag-on to a campaign? We need to look at big picture for later on and flow on effect rather than what the player can do to individuals. Let's say there are rules for targeting different sectors (underclass, nobility) how you would go about doing so, establishing secrecy and remaining inconspicuous whilst doing so, how it will grow, what effect it will have, chance of it being discovered, what happens if it is discovered (moles, all out civil war, gang warfare, exterminates etc)

Fair enough, but you also have to remember the scope of the game. The game isn’t about galactic conquest. It’s about building a power base high enough to the point where you can lead a Black Crusade. It’s *tries to think of an example* Smallville! It’s all the stuff that happens before the big events we know about from history. The stuff that shapes the would-be warlord or daemon prince.

I'm not talking about galactic conquest, I'm looking at a hive or at the biggest, a planet, but it's more like how you would execute the manoeuvre and the difficulties encountered. A shrine world vs. a hive world, a forge world vs. a feral world. Population densities, current political alignment towards the Imperium and so forth.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
Chaos Marines and humans do not create a balanced party (it's not a symbiotic relationship, marines fail at interaction, humans fail at combat, and in any case where you have an encounter which focuses on either with any sort of actual challenge then most of the time the humans will wipe leaving the CSM to clean up.

I don’t agree here, and I don’t believe we’ve played enough BC (too much time spent play-testing Deathwatch!) to come to that conclusion. Of course, me being me, I’ve looked for a consensus on this topic to formulate a starting point, and really people seem evenly divided on this matter (Chaos Undivided, even ).
All I can say is that from my experience the minion system helps overcome any perceived or actual imbalance.

I would say when you crunch the numbers and look at the gaping disparities it becomes obvious, even with our experience. You put Marines and some humans against plaguebearers and you watch the marines get diddly-squat done to them while the humans get slaughtered.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
- Chaos I Marines lack so much more depth compared to humans (hence why a human to CSM transition would give them so much more depth).

I disagree vehemently here. It’s just like the arguments that there’s no role-playing in Deathwatch. It’s an RPG, you get out what you put in. If your approach is that CSM’s have no depth then they’ll have no depth.

The journey made is far more interesting than the journey told. If you disagree that the option to become CSM wouldn't add more depth, I would call folly and then folly a thousand times more.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
- Confusion of ambiguity with freedom, give players a goal to obtain in game rather than simply leaving them to wallow in a system which pigeon-holes you initially then expects you to simply go from there.

Two points here:
1. Isn’t the ‘goal’ up the GM?
2. It’s interesting you keep referring to BC characters as being “pigeon holed”, which is weird as BC has the most open character creation system of any of the games (even OC is more restrictive, and it’s an “open plan” style system similar to BC’s). It’s hard to argue that BC characters are pigeon holed into a role when they can pretty much take any advance from the get go. The three games prior were far more restrictive in what you could take (You are an X, you can only take from table A, you are a Y, you can only take from table B, and so on).

You are looking at this from a GMs perspective, meanwhile I'm taking a dual approach from both GM and player. The GM's set goal and the players are entirely different items, though they may at points be close they will rarely be one and the same. The player goal is who he or she wants to be at the end of the game, while the GM's goal is to have a resolution, usually at a climactic moment or after some great deed where they will be happy to tie it up. They affect each other but remain entirely separate. The GM may ask the player to reign in their aspirations or the player may attempt diplomacy with the GM to drag the campaign in a certain direction in order to accomplish he goal.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:
The process of creation in Rogue Trader has far more depth in both creation and an actual end goal (PROFIT!) which is far more to say than Black Crusade.

You want to codify and crunch-i-fy a cahracter’s goals and motivations? Again, isn’t this something that the player should be deciding, not some chart? I’m a fan of the origin path system for Rogue Trader, but that’s the path that fits with that game. I like how every game has a different method of character creation, and BC’s is the most open as it allows you to “come to Chaos”, so to speak, via basically any means. This is why the game doesn’t have “classes” or “careers” but simply archetypes.

It's nothing an archetype should prescribe along that same line of thinking. Why should two people who took the same archetype exactly in the same basket as far as the game is concerned? Why such a pitiful amount of beginning customization? For an open system it seems very much template at the start (these are your choices, good luck finding one which fits your background) which eats up all that xp you could be spend yourself to make the character you want as opposed to the character the system wants you to be. Why should wyrds all be the same? at the beginning, it's common fluff that they have wildly different backgrounds from all over the place. Why not have a 2 stage system instead of a fit-all-sizes approach where you have sizes S-XXL but have a standard cut so even though it's the right size it still doesn't fit (so you modify it yourself to fit).

Takin' dis to PM's as to not clog up the thread any further.

 Ehsteve wrote:

Let's see what this system lacks: an actual fleshed out vehicle system,

I blame HBMC. LOL

 Ehsteve wrote:

...more freedom and depth about the dark mechanicum...

Based on my own experiences and interviews with several writers, this will not happen. Games Workshop automatically vetoes anything they have not addressed in the 'Core' 40k that might effect the 'Core' 40k if FFG writes soemthing (Due to the fact this potentially muddles up the copyrights to it [more so than already]). This is why there is so much 'Calyxis Only' stuff in, for example, The Lathe Worlds and why none of the DkoK regimens were at Vraks, which gets only gets a passing mention in the DKoK info (they were all mysteriously diverted from there to the Spinward Front), despite being, by Imperial standards, right next door.

However, it works both ways: Scarus sector, which boarders Calyxis, is currently in turmoil, according to the fluff for Imperial Armour Volume 5 (most particularly the Seige of Vraks, but other turmoil is broadly mentioned in GW vague fashion), but none of this spills over, despite Scarus being one of the stable routes into and out of the Eye of Terror. (Yes, this means that whatever is going on in the spinward front is more important to the Imperium than securing one of the stable gates into the Eye of Terror.)

So, no, getting more detail on anything that FFG deliberately leaves vague is probably not going to happen, as it's more than likely that the decision wasn't made by them, but as part of the GW approval process.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Ehsteve wrote:

Let's see what this system lacks: an actual fleshed out vehicle system,

I blame HBMC. LOL

 Ehsteve wrote:

...more freedom and depth about the dark mechanicum...

Based on my own experiences and interviews with several writers, this will not happen. Games Workshop automatically vetoes anything they have not addressed in the 'Core' 40k that might effect the 'Core' 40k if FFG writes soemthing (Due to the fact this potentially muddles up the copyrights to it [more so than already]). This is why there is so much 'Calyxis Only' stuff in, for example, The Lathe Worlds and why none of the DkoK regimens were at Vraks, which gets only gets a passing mention in the DKoK info (they were all mysteriously diverted from there to the Spinward Front), despite being, by Imperial standards, right next door.

However, it works both ways: Scarus sector, which boarders Calyxis, is currently in turmoil, according to the fluff for Imperial Armour Volume 5 (most particularly the Seige of Vraks, but other turmoil is broadly mentioned in GW vague fashion), but none of this spills over, despite Scarus being one of the stable routes into and out of the Eye of Terror. (Yes, this means that whatever is going on in the spinward front is more important to the Imperium than securing one of the stable gates into the Eye of Terror.)

So, no, getting more detail on anything that FFG deliberately leaves vague is probably not going to happen, as it's more than likely that the decision wasn't made by them, but as part of the GW approval process.

However some of the themes even in Calixis only things can be carried over to other sectors. The Logicians for example might be used to represent similar progressive movements in other sectors. While the Dark Mechanicum as a whole may never be detailed, individual forge worlds might be.

Unfortunately this also means that unless GW comes out with something more specific and canonical with regards to for example Craftworld Eldar society, then that means FFG cannot really elaborate upon them beyond specific bands of Corsairs or making up their own Craftworlds. Which means chances of seeing Eldar as PCs drops, though if FFG could somehow rationalize a hulking Ork Freebooter being a PC I don't see why they can't do the same for an Eldar.

Incidentally I have always viewed the mention of Ork infestation in Scarus to be a nod to Scarus being overrun by the Green Kroosade during the Eye of Terror campaign.

Just as a general comment, I can certainly understand why GW wants and needs to keep control over the "foundation" IP, and set boundaries around what FFG can and cannot undertake...

But it's a real shame. FFG has been assembling a highly evocative narrative setting, IMO -- wild and weird and well fleshed out. Their stuff feels both arcane and credible, and authentically dystopian: crawling with horrors and occasional opportunities for heroism.

Whereas GW's efforts along these lines have really faltered. The company no longer includes much if anything in the way of narrative background or development in White Dwarf. It no longer sponsors or bothers trying to run campaigns that nurture the sense of meta-narrative in the gaming community. GW does include cool narrative offerings in its codexes, but these have grown prohibitively expensive to buy (at least for me) for armies that I don't play.

Black Library is less and less appealing as a source, what with its fascination with grotesquely priced "limited edition" novellas and the like. I feel as though they are trying to string me along, seeing how much I'll pay. And I'm not interested being strung along.

And Forge World is, similarly, priced at levels I just can't participate in.

Sometimes I kind of wish GW would cede over some genuine authorship to FFG. I'd love to see them sink their teeth into a project such as scheming up a narrative history/ecology/geography for something along the lines Dark Mechanicum, for example.

As it is, FFG is sustaining my narrative participation in the Grim Distance of the Dark Future. And that even though I rarely play FFG's games! (I'm not much of an RPG player.)

*sigh

 tinfoil wrote:
Just as a general comment, I can certainly understand why GW wants and needs to keep control over the "foundation" IP, and set boundaries around what FFG can and cannot undertake...

But it's a real shame. FFG has been assembling a highly evocative narrative setting, IMO -- wild and weird and well fleshed out. Their stuff feels both arcane and credible, and authentically dystopian: crawling with horrors and occasional opportunities for heroism.

Whereas GW's efforts along these lines have really faltered. The company no longer includes much if anything in the way of narrative background or development in White Dwarf. It no longer sponsors or bothers trying to run campaigns that nurture the sense of meta-narrative in the gaming community. GW does include cool narrative offerings in its codexes, but these have grown prohibitively expensive to buy (at least for me) for armies that I don't play.

Black Library is less and less appealing as a source, what with its fascination with grotesquely priced "limited edition" novellas and the like. I feel as though they are trying to string me along, seeing how much I'll pay. And I'm not interested being strung along.

And Forge World is, similarly, priced at levels I just can't participate in.

Sometimes I kind of wish GW would cede over some genuine authorship to FFG. I'd love to see them sink their teeth into a project such as scheming up a narrative history/ecology/geography for something along the lines Dark Mechanicum, for example.

As it is, FFG is sustaining my narrative participation in the Grim Distance of the Dark Future. And that even though I rarely play FFG's games! (I'm not much of an RPG player.)

*sigh

GW and BL have suffered from their increasing focus on Space Marines to the exclusion of other aspects of 40K. Just look at the BL stuff in the pipeline and they are almost all Marine related, with the occasional Imperial Guard. With the dumping of Specialist Games, that also means things like BFG (and all space related stuff) will suffer.

One issue I have with FFG though is they seem to have written themselves into a corner with regards to the Calixis sector. I mean in the sense they have to ensure the status quo so nothing ever changes. Every conspiracy or threat either has to fizzle out or be left dangling and unresolved. This also means there is an increasing number of factions and "secret organizations" out to threaten the sector, but it feels like there is faction bloat. As in, how many more secret organizations or threats with access to secret labs, estates, space stations, and other major assets can there be?

Iracundus wrote:

Incidentally I have always viewed the mention of Ork infestation in Scarus to be a nod to Scarus being overrun by the Green Kroosade during the Eye of Terror campaign.

Eh. I don't like to think about the Eye of Terror Campaign. Like Empire in Flames it got retconned to hard and so frequently that The Doctor must be on staff at GW. IN had it's BFG wins counted two and three times on different pages in the results so that Chaos lost. In reality, Chaos won both in space and on the ground.

Which, for obvious reasons, could not be allowed.

That and while Cadia was supposed to fall, a few months later a new Guard codex with those new plastic Cadians would be released. Not much use promoting the Cadians when their planet has fallen completely to Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the stakes were too high: If the Imperium won Space Marine legions would be reinstated. If Chaos won Terra would be in danger.. :talk2hand:

Iracundus wrote:
As in, how many more secret organizations or threats with access to secret labs, estates, space stations, and other major assets can there be?

Whenever I feel like this, I remind myself that one of the core conceits of 40k is that the galaxy is so damned big that you could fit anything in every published book ever into one sector many times over.

I mean, we're talking about a setting in which fleets and planets can be 'lost' through bureacratic error. The scale is huuuuge.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Incidentally I have always viewed the mention of Ork infestation in Scarus to be a nod to Scarus being overrun by the Green Kroosade during the Eye of Terror campaign.

Eh. I don't like to think about the Eye of Terror Campaign. Like Empire in Flames it got retconned to hard and so frequently that The Doctor must be on staff at GW. IN had it's BFG wins counted two and three times on different pages in the results so that Chaos lost. In reality, Chaos won both in space and on the ground.

Which, for obvious reasons, could not be allowed.

Um, I don't know what you are referring to about the BFG wins. You know that sector level could take 40K reports as well? The BFG results were actually completely swamped as evidenced by the fact that certain zones actually had Chaos leading in BFG victories (as reported by the BFG magazine) but were firmly in Imperial hands in terms of control due to the number of 40K reports. There were a large number of players that never took the time to explore the map further and thought the sectors were all there was to it, and just kept dumping their games on the sector level.

That and while Cadia was supposed to fall, a few months later a new Guard codex with those new plastic Cadians would be released. Not much use promoting the Cadians when their planet has fallen completely to Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the stakes were too high: If the Imperium won Space Marine legions would be reinstated. If Chaos won Terra would be in danger.

They could have easily made a new Cadia (just as there are multiple planets named Macharius) or Nova Cadia and played it as the Cadians are fighting to return to their home. The stakes were (and I have the WD) that an Imperial success would lead to a renaissance of Imperial might and might have led to the High Lords reconsidering the Legions, while a Chaos victory was to have led to more despair as Abaddon would be out of the Eye. Nothing said specifically about Terra being threatened.

Abaddon is out of the Eye even in the later fluff as he was last depicted officially in the Thesus sector in the Apocalypse rulebook. In reality Abaddon being out of the Eye wouldn't have threatened the setting either, and just means there is an explanation for more widespread Chaos attacks.

Tome of Excess is finally out!!!

FFG wrote:Indulge Yourself
The Tome of Excess, a Black Crusade Supplement, Is Now Available



“Find pleasure in every moment, indulge in every whim. Let lesser races feel the burden of their crude lives. We are beyond such concerns or worries. Every power is ours to use, every sensation ours to experience. We are truly masters of the galaxy, and all others exist only to satisfy our curiosities. We have earned our position of power. Let us forever taste the fruits of such achievement. Time itself is ours to command. We are eternal."
–Translated Eldar glyphs found amidst the ruins of the Shrine of Celestial Grandeur

All beings require sensation to know their surroundings, but the truly aware realize that life without sensation is worse than death. For those who exist for sensation, the normal limits of life become meaningless in the pursuit of greater and greater stimuli. As excesses are breached, nothing can sate these heavier appetites for long, however, and soon nothing exists except the quest for further sensation. Lives such as these are bound, either knowingly or unknowingly, in the service of the Chaos God Slaanesh. He offers the limitless bliss of endless passions and insatiable appetites to his legions of depraved followers. Will you give in to your desires and swear allegiance to him?

The Tome of Excess, a sinfully indulgent supplement for Black Crusade, is now available at your local retailer and on our webstore! This powerful tribute to Slaanesh introduces four new Heretic Archetypes, along with cruel weapons, rules for empowering minions, new Daemon Engines, and more to amplify the rapacious hordes of the Dark Prince.



Rules for expanded interactions and social combat allow players of all alignments to seduce their foes into becoming devoted lackeys. Players also gain new ways to use their growing Infamy, plus new dark rituals to curse and entrap enemies. Discover secrets of the Screaming Vortex, such as the Demons of Contrition, the xenos guardians of the Forbidden Portal, Malignia’s deadly jungles, and more. And in the included adventure, Heretics must best a Pirate Prince of the Ragged Helix in their bid to launch their own Black Crusade!


The Personification of Excess

Slaanesh is the personification of excess. In his name, hosts degrade entire worlds with unspeakable rites and warlords seduce systems with honeyed promises of unimaginable essences. His own appearance is beyond limits, existing as both male and female, always the epitome of impossible beauty and desire no matter who gazes upon his form. His followers exist only to seek out new perfections of sensation, and to make themselves perfect to better achieve such sensations. The more perfect the artist, the better he can fully admire unnatural colors that cause eyes to boil and shrivel.

Only the finest of assassins can appreciate the tortured gasps of a betrayed noble as the knife slowly twists. None but a devoted master of the blade knows the bliss as flesh slices apart under his exquisite riposte. All these and more are mere steps along a path that requires more and more with each sensory attainment. To know ultimates is to realize there are no ultimates, only increasing tiers of perception and the search of perfection to fully appreciate them. Their frantic journeys can have no end except for that which lays waiting them within the Warp: Slaanesh.


A Word from the Developer

Lead Developer Tim Huckelbery took a moment to share his insights on The Tome of Excess:

This Tome, our third tome devoted to the Chaos powers, was one we’ve been looking forward to for some time, as Slaanesh offers such wonderfully twisted opportunities for roleplaying. He is the god of pleasure, to be sure, but he is really the god of extremes in all things. As such, this book is devoted to wild excesses in behavior, addictive personalities, obsessive natures, and more. His followers are always dialed to 11 (as Nigel would say) though most also tear off the volume knob as well. Here personal desires are paramount and so we introduce many new paths to selfish power. There are no limits, and even the weapons are wonderfully warped.



As mere violence is so passé, however, many Heretics of Slaanesh prefer cutting with words instead; to that end, the new rules for Social Combat allows players to use their wits as weapons. Words have power, especially using the new Curses you’ll find here. Rules for Seduction can also sway enemies to your side—including fellow players!—to ensure their acquiescence. The new Glorifying Acts are also great fun as players can release their selfish desires for power, ignoring possible consequences to the rest of the group in order to gain greater Infamy!

The art has surpassed expectations in illuminating the words into wonderfully disturbing images filled with disconcerting beauty. Inside you’ll find such excessive insanities such as void bridges made from flayed faces, flesh shaping in action, the spider-ships of Samech, and the degradations of the Hall of Gluttony and the Den of Surrender.

In all, both the writers and artists (especially the art director, Andy Christensen) really came through to create something that I think is as enjoyable to read and look at as it is to use in game play. After all, as Slaanesh would say, satisfaction is everything!

Thanks, Tim! Look for The Tome of Excess on store shelves today!

Plus this means I can finally talk about it - Hellbrutes! Warp Talons! Word Bearer Dark Apostles! Space pirates living in asteroid belts! Drugs! Drugs! So many drugs! Mounted-Combat!

Feels good to finally say those things.

But where are the Tech-Priests, H?



Looks quite nice. You guys are doing a pretty fine job with the RPGs.

I hate to say this, but FFG's forums just went swirly. Looks like a massive database clusterfrag.

Now to wait while all the shops actually get it

A new Rogue Trader supplement: http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4178

"Those who dwell within the grace of the God-Emperor need never fear the dark. His grace and guidance shines a perpetual light upon them.”
Nadine Aleynikov, disciple of St. Cognatius

Fantasy Flight Games is excited to announce Faith and Coin, the latest Rogue Trader supplement! It is a Rogue Trader’s duty to assist in spreading the Imperial Creed across the stars, helping missionaries as they wander from world to forgotten world. In turn, Rogue Traders reap the profits from the seeds that missionaries sow. In this guide, for players and GMs, the complex relationships between missionaries and Rogue Traders come to life, with new Endeavors to complete and new worlds to convert. Find sacred relics, smite vile heretics, or embark on new Alternate Career Paths with the grace of the God-Emperor guiding you every step of the way.

A Word From the Developer
Lead developer Max Brooke gives a taste of what is to come in the upcoming Faith and Coin:

The Koronus Expanse is a realm of unlimited opportunity and incalculable risk. It teems with life, from deadly alien beasts to incomprehensible xenos species to human populations rendered utterly strange by aeons of isolation. To prepare these lost human populations for their return to the dominion of the Imperium, Rogue Traders are required to give passage to missionaries, wandering priests who carry the Emperor's Light into the darkness of the fringes. These representatives of the Imperium work to introduce their faith on these far-flung worlds, subverting local faiths by weaving elements of the Imperial Creed into local religions and mythologies. Of course, different missionaries use extremely different methods. Some bring the Emperor's light with zeal and fire, burning down the old edifices to glorify the Emperor, while others wander alone in the darkness, quietly sowing seed of faith that their successors can reap in centuries or even millennia to come.



The relationship between these representatives of the Imperial Creed and those who carry a Warrant of Trade is one of mutual necessity, punctuated by both conspiracy and conflict. Many Rogue Traders rely on itinerant priests to maintain the spiritual health of their crews and to open inroads upon new worlds they can exploit. Missionaries, for their part, often benefit from the unique resources a Rogue Trader can provide above and beyond transit between the stars. The vast material wealth of a Rogue Trader, the keen mind and expansive knowledge of a seneschal, or the raw might of a warship can all accelerate the conversion of a given world tremendously. Not all Rogue Traders are willing to put piety before profit, however, and such alliances of convenience can shatter at the drop of a coin.

Faith and Coin is a supplement for players and Game Masters that explores the role the Imperial Creed in Rogue Trader through the tales of four different missionaries who set out into the Koronus Expanse and sought an ancient secret—the lost tomb of Saint Cognatius, which is said to contain priceless relics and miraculous archeotechnology alike. The book uses the framework of their stories to delve into the ways the Imperial faith can be a powerful tool for many characters in Rogue Trader. It offers new options not only for Missionaries, but for any Explorers who interact with the Imperial Creed in the Koronus Expanse—or at least turn a profit by it. This volume includes new Endeavours that crews can undertake as they use the Imperial faith to build the fortune of their dynasty, Alternate Career Ranks Explorers can use to gain powerful new knowledge and abilities, and a host of weapons, armour, equipment, and powerful relics of past holy warriors for smiting heretics in the Koronus Expanse. Finally, it contains an adventure, The Sacred Heart, which allows the Explorers to follow in the footsteps of their predecessors in seeking the legendary tomb of Saint Cognatius.



Faith and Coin is full of new options and stories for both players and Game Masters to pursue, and I'm looking forward to hearing how readers use it to expand their characters and campaigns!

Thanks Max! Look for Faith and Coin coming later this year. Meanwhile, keep checking here for more news and previews about the upcoming Faith and Coin supplement for Rogue Trader.

While I understand that Navigators got a book so Missionaries will get one too... We already HAVE a good book for the setting on the Imperial Creed and it's whys and wherefores.

Not to mention that following the Events of Chaos Commandment... well...

I for one am happy because I only collect Rogue Trader books and do not bother with Dark Heresy.

I just avoid Black Crusade and Deathwatch.

Because feth Space Marines. I have enough munchkinism to contain with psykers and power armor and bolters, I don't need ten foot tall psykers in power armor with sacred bolters and force halberds.


(I will however, point out that to get all the vehicle stats, you'll probably have to buy more than just RT. FFG is unlikely to come out with, for example, IG tank stats for RT and OW.)

 BaronIveagh wrote:
FFG is unlikely to come out with, for example, IG tank stats for RT and OW.)

If they did, I imagine you'd post something along the lines of:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
We already HAVE a good book for the setting on the Imperial Creed and it's whys and wherefores.

 Manchu wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
FFG is unlikely to come out with, for example, IG tank stats for RT and OW.)

If they did, I imagine you'd post something along the lines of:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
We already HAVE a good book for the setting on the Imperial Creed and it's whys and wherefores.

It's the FFg paradox: they reprint to waste space enough to be irritating, but never what really needs reprinting. (Seriously, how often with IG grunts have need of the skill Navigation (warp)? Yet that is reprinted in the OW Core Book)

I should probably put it this way: RT does not need a fluff heavy missionary book (which this is looking like) they need a crunch heavy missionary book (with some fluff on missionary activities) and a crunch heavy gear book (with some fluff on manufaturers and ship salvage, maybe). and a massive FAQ to Stars of Inequity. Possibly a 2nd Edition of it, because a team of trained apes could have written that stinker better.

So what are the new archetypes in tome of excess then?

Noise Marine
Dark Apostle
Flesh Shaper
Pirate Prince

 BaronIveagh wrote:
While I understand that Navigators got a book so Missionaries will get one too... We already HAVE a good book for the setting on the Imperial Creed and it's whys and wherefores.

Dark Heresy has a book related to the Ecclesiarchy (and the Sisters) and is geared towards the intrigues that might fuel a Dark Heresy campaign. Rogue Trader has no such book. And yes, they are separate product lines it does matter.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I should probably put it this way: RT does not need a fluff heavy missionary book (which this is looking like)

Says who? You?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
they need a crunch heavy missionary book (with some fluff on missionary activities)...

Says who? You?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
and a crunch heavy gear book (with some fluff on manufaturers and ship salvage, maybe)

Says who? You?

It seems to me that Faith & Coin deals with the Missionary side of things and how the Ecclesiarchy relates to Rogue Traders and vice versa, something not all that much explored in current 40K fluff (and certainly not in Blood of Martyrs). It also seems like it will be a fairly standard expansion book - a bunch of alternate careers, a nice new armoury, a chapter of fluff and probably an adventure. An equal match of fluff and crunch, much like every subject-specific book that's come out for the RT line (and lots of other lines for that matter).

And they have a crunch-heavy gear book. It's called Into the Storm.

As my last desperate purchase before some hardcore belt-tightening, I just ordered Death Watch and First Founding. Really looking forward to reading both. I am a total fluff hoor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I just avoid Black Crusade and Deathwatch.

Because feth Space Marines. I have enough munchkinism to contain with psykers and power armor and bolters, I don't need ten foot tall psykers in power armor with sacred bolters and force halberds.

I am confused, are you aware you are referencing Deathwatch and then describing Grey Knights?

You should get Tome of Excess as well, SickSix. Technically you're in it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Says who? You?

I'd craft a more eloquent response to your post, but I'm limiting my replies in this thread by request of Dakka's management as someone finds it funny to spam 'report' every time I post in this particular thread, regardless of what I say. Hilariously, they also did it on DR (and probably FFG's forums too, but mods there haven't said anything to me), apparently forgetting I own Dark Reign.

I'd agree that a missionary book is good for RT but ... that's what Faith & Coin is, no?

So it just must be cool to hate on anyone that does anything that is officially related to 40k.

I dont have my FFG books yet (first one should be here tomorrow), but it is ironic that in GW hate threads people prop up FFG as doing 40k fluff right. Then I come in here and all I see is walls of text tearing down FFG.

They're great sources of fluff, I'd say so but I think it is better that you see for yourself and above all else, ignore the passionate posts about what is wrong with it all.

I'm here to read news about upcoming releases, not to read about raging biases against upcoming releases or the rules or the company.

I didn't do it for fun by the way.

 SickSix wrote:
So it just must be cool to hate on anyone that does anything that is officially related to 40k.

I dont have my FFG books yet (first one should be here tomorrow), but it is ironic that in GW hate threads people prop up FFG as doing 40k fluff right. Then I come in here and all I see is walls of text tearing down FFG.

Posts like this don't help ...

The thing about FFG fluff is that there seems to be both a connection and a disconnect to what GW is doing. That and consider that RPG people tend to be even fluff-nuttier than wargamers. For myself, I don't need everything to correspond exactly and rationally to every other thing. For the purposes of running a RPG (rather than writing a licensed one), you just need a vivid conception of the setting that your group shares. You don't need to, for example, know what SoB are like always and everywhere.