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 Catyrpelius wrote:
The terrain sets really are awsome, the set comes with alot of other stuff but my phone was giving me odd issues last night.

The THI suit was the only thing that I might be disappointed by, but I'm going to hold off my final judgement until I get it cleaned and assembled which I'm going to try and get done this weekend. I agree that it's smaller then I thought it was going to be but once assembled I'm pretty sure its going to be atleast as tall as a terminator. I did only buy one, so its much less of an issue for me then some I guess.

I didn't really have many problems with the few things I've cleaned so far... A sharp knife and a diamond file works wonders, it's the same process I use for super dungeon explore.

To be honest from what I read about the wave two stuff I was expecting small roughly human shaped lumps of plastic poorly glued together. What I actually got were some pretty nicely detailed models that I belive all fit in size wise. Sure their not Studio McVey LE Resin casts but at the price I never expected them to be and as far as I'm conserned I got great value for my money.

My advice to people is that if some of the stuff you got is really as bad as your describing send CMoN an email and get some replacements. I've never had any problems getting replacements from them for anything.

I'm in the exact same boat as you. I got my stuff yesterday and was wholly pleased. I'll be doing a full review with pictures this weekend, but a few points overall:

1. The shrinkage on the Not-Serenity crew has been pretty well overstated. I'm going to post some comparison photos in my comprehensive, but the only "small" figure is River, and well, she's a 16-year old girl. If we assume the Standard model is about 6'0" an Jayne, who is a bit taller, is about 6'4" then River is around a head and a half shorter, or 5'4". Which is exactly like she should be. The limbs are definitely a bit thinner on the unarmored female models...but they should be. I'm really not seeing it. If anything, the free Vokker model that everyone got may actually be a touch large. While most of the SW stuff is in the same scale as, say, Infinity, Vokker looks like he fits in more with Warmachine or even 40k with his proportions.

2. The mould lines you see in Caty's picture are pretty much the exact same as what I experienced. I know there were some flippant comments about "if Mike McVey took 45 mins to clean Barker, then for the average person it should take around 90" and, having sat next to McVey and watched him clean a model, I can tell you he's pretty slow and meticulous. It took me about 25 mins to clean and assemble Barker. I had a slight bit of warpage on the roll cage which was shockingly fixed in 35 seconds with hot water. Keegan Kor required the most cleanup for me so far, as both of his arms needed some mould line trimming.

3. The terrain pack is fantastic. It really is. It's going to work REALLY well for Infinity terrain and objectives as well, and came packaged in some really great looking packaging. I've got a shot of that that I'll have up too.

4. I guess I sort of wish the THI suits were larger, but I like the models a lot and they went together really easily. I have a sneaking suspicion if SMV had decided to put them on 40mm bases instead of 60mm bases, we'd be seeing a lot less anger over their size. Is $15 a bit high? Maybe. But I don't think grossly so.

5. My only real irritation is that the revised card set they threw in for us only includes what is in the base set. They probably mentioned that somewhere, but I don't have enough cards for all of the models I received with Biohazard.

With that in mind, for those of you that are interested in dumping stuff, here's what I'm looking for:

Another Revised Card Set
1x Bone Crabs Set
1x Vanguard Opticamo Set
30-40x Bases

If your in the UK/EU and have issues with your shipping or mispacks go direct to Battlefoam the contact is Jemma and the email address is jemma@battlefoam.com (apparently CMoN are just issuing this as a response to any UK/EU backers so best to cut out the middle man) I assume it's the same for Zombicide.

Catyr, it sounds like you had the right expectations, and thus were not disappointed. I agree that this is the expectation people should have had... but if Studio McVey / CMON had been honest and upfront about the quality level (if they had known) they likely would not have raised so much from the campaign. They set the expectations really high!

I was sounding off a bit about PVC and all these campaigns claiming they could deliver the moon when it hadn't been proven yet... and I did the same for Kingdom Death when he was leaning towards PVC. But luckily, that campaign raised enough funds to go full-on polystyrene! So, the sharp edges should be maintained, and the samples have looked stellar.

I just think there was too much hype and not enough information about this material that so many campaigns were rushing to produce in (and still are). CMON itself has even learned it's lesson, by planning to have Wrath of Kings made with bodies in PVC (which are more organic) and weapons in polystyrene (which can hold a sharp edge).

But when campaigns in the future are promising amazing detail in PVC, you'll know to expect something more like this.

I believe Privateer Press can get away with it, because their sculpts are more organic and have oversized detail (and are bigger, 32mm from what I can tell). But for small figures needing sharp detail (almost the very definition of Studio McVey's scifi sculpts!) it is a very poor material to use.

But I think it should really be fine for terrain, so I'm glad you are pleased with that part in particular Catyr!

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
As I commented on that thread, the terrain was what was keeping me positive about the project. I have two sets of it (hopefully) on the way. Seeing those pictures has really pissed me off.

I have two sets of the terrain coming to me...

I will say this about the McVey forums. Only a handful of people seem to have received Wave 2 with terrain yet, of those people only one of them has had a really bad experiance with it, and even then with only one peice from the kit. I get the feeling that the actual problem might be alittle overblown.

I'm also suprised by the number of positive comments about the Wave 2 stuff on their forums. It gives me some hope that the models aren't as bad as some people are making them out to be. Maybe if my stuff ever ships I'll get to see for myself.

Don't be surprised. There are people that will take a caramel covered turd and think its great but it's still a turd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:
I hope that this whole debacle hasn't sunk McVey in terms of every getting the things off the ground that we'd hoped he would.

I hope this sinks him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
Catyr, it sounds like you had the right expectations, and thus were not disappointed. I agree that this is the expectation people should have had... but if Studio McVey / CMON had been honest and upfront about the quality level (if they had known) they likely would not have raised so much from the campaign. They set the expectations really high!

I was sounding off a bit about PVC and all these campaigns claiming they could deliver the moon when it hadn't been proven yet... and I did the same for Kingdom Death when he was leaning towards PVC. But luckily, that campaign raised enough funds to go full-on polystyrene! So, the sharp edges should be maintained, and the samples have looked stellar.

I just think there was too much hype and not enough information about this material that so many campaigns were rushing to produce in (and still are). CMON itself has even learned it's lesson, by planning to have Wrath of Kings made with bodies in PVC (which are more organic) and weapons in polystyrene (which can hold a sharp edge).

But when campaigns in the future are promising amazing detail in PVC, you'll know to expect something more like this.

I believe Privateer Press can get away with it, because their sculpts are more organic and have oversized detail (and are bigger, 32mm from what I can tell). But for small figures needing sharp detail (almost the very definition of Studio McVey's scifi sculpts!) it is a very poor material to use.

But I think it should really be fine for terrain, so I'm glad you are pleased with that part in particular Catyr!

Wasn't the terrain and drone made from a different material than the figures? That's why the quality is cleaner I believe.

 Forlorn wrote:

I hope this sinks him.
.

Why?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Forlorn wrote:

I hope this sinks him.
.

Why?

Was about to ask the exact same thing. Being disappointed in the guy's product is a bit different than actively hoping he fails in his industry.

Schadenfreude sucks - seriously!

I hope McVey recovers from this, learns from this, and delivers something awesome next time out.

I just won't be per-ordering it though!

 Alpharius wrote:
Schadenfreude sucks - seriously!

I hope McVey recovers from this, learns from this, and delivers something awesome next time out.

I just won't be per-ordering it though!

I think there's a lot to learn, and that's my hope as well.

Well my shipping email is in, delivery's due Monday

I'll get to see what all the fuss is about

(excited ? calm? afraid? I'm just not sure this gosh darn internet's got me all confused)

 Alpharius wrote:
Schadenfreude sucks - seriously!

I hope McVey recovers from this, learns from this, and delivers something awesome next time out.

I just won't be per-ordering it though!

It is almost lucky that it happened to SMV not some small first time company. McVey will be able to recover from this.

That being said, he will have to learn a few lessons from this. All companies should look at SW and KoW to see what will go wrong and try to eliminate that.

The next few releases will have to be on time and on target as far as molding goes. And don't expect most of the previous backers to put much faith into you until it is PROVEN that it can be good.

Am I mad at SMV? No, more disappointed. I still see the value in what the final product was. I still have tons of models to paint and play with. I still have a game to play (questionable rules, but there are rules at least).

That being said, SW was oversold and under delivered. I would have rather have gotten a product that was undersold and over delivered. Also don't expect me to back another SMV KS (or CMoN, not that they have much I am interested in). Even preorders are going to be a tough sell.

I'm not sure he did learn, at least not completely. I base that off of a note he had on their forums where he acknowledged he was not happy with the second wave stuff. Yet, they produced them and sent them to all of us.

That really bothers me.

He said:

I have to say right off the bat, that I am unhappy with the shrinkage of some of the casts - it is certainly disappointing to me, and I'm sure it is to some of you too. Unfortunately, the ones that are the worst effected are the ones that were the thinnest to start with - the ones with a more chunky design have not suffered in the same way. It seems that the process is not kind to finer designs. I don't think the miniatures are ruined - but they are not quite how I had envisioned them coming out. ... Overall I'm not as happy with Wave 2 as I had hoped to be

Now, at some point someone saw the test casts and approved them for production. That just doesn't sit right with me.

 CptJake wrote:
I'm not sure he did learn, at least not completely. I base that off of a note he had on their forums where he acknowledged he was not happy with the second wave stuff. Yet, they produced them and sent them to all of us.

That really bothers me.

He said:

I have to say right off the bat, that I am unhappy with the shrinkage of some of the casts - it is certainly disappointing to me, and I'm sure it is to some of you too. Unfortunately, the ones that are the worst effected are the ones that were the thinnest to start with - the ones with a more chunky design have not suffered in the same way. It seems that the process is not kind to finer designs. I don't think the miniatures are ruined - but they are not quite how I had envisioned them coming out. ... Overall I'm not as happy with Wave 2 as I had hoped to be

Now, at some point someone saw the test casts and approved them for production. That just doesn't sit right with me.

But you are forgetting that there is a middle man here. There is CMoN as the producer. We don't really know the role they had and Mike had, as that was a business agreement between them, and those details are private.

CMoN may have been the ones approving the casts, not Mike. If that is the case, shame on Mike for having it set up that way, but it is something to learn of. This is the problem when a 3rd party produces. We assume Mike has/had full control, when he doesn't.

Yep, I've mentioned it before, but I've read and heard some horror stories about how much creative control you give up when you get a contract with a publisher.

It might be that Mike said "good enough, the fans can't tell the difference" or he might have decided to pick his fights with the CMoN, or he might have needed to say there isn't time to correct it, or he might have had no control over the casting process whatsoever. Given how high the standards are with his resin line, I'd tend to assume it was not his choice, but don't know any more than the rest of you.

I would wager on he didn't have control over the casting process, and once it was caught, it was probably too late/too expensive to fix.

You're right, we don't know who approved the figures. I do know McVey's name is all over the packaging though.

I do know no one from CMON held a gun to his head and forced him to sign an agreement he really didn't think was in his best interest.

I don't hope he fails, but again, I'm not sure all the appropriate lessons were learned to the level they should have been. Wave 2 being a charlie foxtrot seems to indicate I'm on track,

Wave 2 is not enough time to learn the lessons from wave one though.

To see if the appropriate lessons were learned, we have to wait for what is next.

For all we know, wave 2 was released to cut the losses and just get the project done. The angry people can be dealt with after the fact, but most backers are probably at least okay with what they got.

If you've never accidentally gotten into a bad contract, you've never been in a creative industry...

edit: that was in response to the "gun to his head" comment if that isn't clear.

Contracts work differently in creative industries from the rest of the world? I didn't know that. I guess I learn something new each day.

sparkywtf wrote:


CMoN may have been the ones approving the casts, not Mike. If that is the case, shame on Mike for having it set up that way, but it is something to learn of. This is the problem when a 3rd party produces. We assume Mike has/had full control, when he doesn't.

The first production casts were approved by Studio McVey. "What I envisioned" is often different than what is "aceceptable" given financial restraints.

Well that answers that question...

Well I will eat my words on that one.

Sounds like they didn't have the money to fix the shrinkage. Which for some limited edition models, is understandable.

(I know I am going to catch from flak for that, but looking for a business stand point, you have to be reasonable)

I think the best move forward for them, since any new product would include the firebrand, would be to do whatever is possible to get multip part plastic troops. If the Samaritan armor was in multi part plastic, it would be incredibly popular.

 Gomez wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Forlorn wrote:
I hope this sinks him.
.

Why?

Was about to ask the exact same thing. Being disappointed in the guy's product is a bit different than actively hoping he fails in his industry.

Because we don't want Sedition Wars-style debacles to be a viable business strategy. We want other manufacturers to think, "We better not foist a crappy product on our paying customers or we will burn, just like Studio McVey". We want screwing over your customers by subcontracting to incompetents to hurt.

Aside from the reputational damage it's already done?

Or the customers that definitely won't Kickstart or pre order a new product without seeing it first?

If you think folks haven't already learned a great deal from this project, you're daft.

Besides, no one was saying it is a viable business strategy. Not a single person

Agreed. While I'm really glad I chickened out on this and Mantic's KOW at the last minute, even if I hadn't I wouldn't be screaming to figurately "burn the witch!". I'd reserve that level of rhetoric for a company that repeatedly does something disappointing like this and doesn't learn from their own lessons or if the company simple didn't deliver substantially on their promise ("sorry.. I know we promised you 100 different minis but we only could make 50... oops!").

 cincydooley wrote:
Aside from the reputational damage it's already done?

Or the customers that definitely won't Kickstart or pre order a new product without seeing it first?

If you think folks haven't already learned a great deal from this project, you're daft.

Besides, no one was saying it is a viable business strategy. Not a single person

More than likely I will not be kickstarting another CMON sponsored product. Only way to really retaliate against CMON is by not giving money to them, only one person understand thousands will continue to lineup and give 'em the old "Shut up and take my money" attitude. David Doust won't mind taking it...

And that is a completely reasonable response to being disappointed with this whole KS endeavor. Wishing for the multiple companies involved in it to fail completely is a bit much.

 warboss wrote:
And that is a completely reasonable response to being disappointed with this whole KS endeavor. Wishing for the multiple companies involved in it to fail completely is a bit much.

I wish for no companies to fail.

But I will put my money on a product I like or on a new company with a reputation. Sure I might take a bit of a risk, such as red republic games, but at least I knew what artists they had lined up.Still a risk.

CMON's reputation, to me, is damaged.

Wanting to buy product based on quality and or expectations is different than wanting them to fail. I would think others would follow this formula as well. If not than CMON will think it is ok if they deliver a sub par product. If buyers react to a poor quality product than CMON and crew will change or they will fail because of cutting corner.

MIERCE miniatures is a company I knew delivers a great quality product, but didn't trust them on past events. Since he delivered product promised on KS, I do regret not kick starting. However, that is how kicstarter and any product outside of KS works.

 CptJake wrote:
Contracts work differently in creative industries from the rest of the world? I didn't know that. I guess I learn something new each day.

I have no idea if you're being sarcastic or not.

To elaborate- you will always be giving up a lot of autonomy in a creative field when working with a publisher to make something (vs. sometimes publishers picking up finished products), even if you're a pretty big name. The question is how much you'll need to fight them and how much you're capable of fighting them. The latter is a matter of personality and reputation, the former is something you can't necessarily prepare for, and depending on the mix, you'll give up anywhere from superficial stuff to complete control of a project (to the point where a publisher can take it from you if they don't like what you're doing and you signed a bad contradt).

 Piston Honda wrote:

 warboss wrote:
And that is a completely reasonable response to being disappointed with this whole KS endeavor. Wishing for the multiple companies involved in it to fail completely is a bit much.

I wish for no companies to fail.

But I will put my money on a product I like or on a new company with a reputation. Sure I might take a bit of a risk, such as red republic games, but at least I knew what artists they had lined up.Still a risk.

CMON's reputation, to me, is damaged.

Wanting to buy product based on quality and or expectations is different than wanting them to fail. I would think others would follow this formula as well. If not than CMON will think it is ok if they deliver a sub par product. If buyers react to a poor quality product than CMON and crew will change or they will fail because of cutting corner.

MIERCE miniatures is a company I knew delivers a great quality product, but didn't trust them on past events. Since he delivered product promised on KS, I do regret not kick starting. However, that is how kicstarter and any product outside of KS works.

So what did the on time delivery of Zombicide S1 do for you I terms of CMoNs reputation? Or how about the early delivery of their only 100% in house KS so far, Guilds of Cadwallon? Or the on time delivery of Zombicide S2?

Honestly, I think there needs to be a point where people begin to look objectively at the projects and the fact that CMoN is merely a publisher and not the designer, and realize that if the designers make poor decisions or don't meet deadlines, there's very little the publisher can do if they're unwilling to throw the design teams under the bus.