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SkyD wrote:I've never come across the interpretation that a scattered blast can't kill things outside of LOS. If a blast scatters, then it moved to that area the blast template ends up, anything under it whether its in LOS or out of it, has been 'hit'. If I was working on multiple units, Marines with bolters firing and a missile launcher, then the bolters are restricted by what they see, the missile launcher hits whatever the blast template ends up on.

If I came across someone saying my scattered blast couldn't kill, then I'd happily concede and call the player a cheat, scratching the game from the record. Its like saying if I threw a frag grenade into a room and shut the door, since I can't see it going off, then it never exploded and can't have killed anything.
Since that scenario wouldn't work, unless the frag was a dud, then even with the door closed, even though I can't see it, if it went off, chances are it killed or wounded.
A scattered blast, if it lands on something or not, has scattered and landed in that area. You don't roll for empty land, but the blast would still occur, it doesn't have a to hit, to wound, or saving throw though. But if the blast landed on a friendly or enemy unit, then they get the surprise of explosion sauce to the face.

Nice, dummy spit when player a new player who is following the new rules for wound allocation plays you. You have your grenade example which isn't even relevant because we're not discussing doors, we're discussing HE howitzer rounds passing through 15 feet of solid rock and hurting troops behind it, explain that?
Very typical NZ attitude though, I'll give you that.

What I'm unsure of though is why smart missiles keep coming up. They don't have a closure statement which says they follow the normal rules for wound allocation, thus it's obvious that the LOS waiver extends to the wound allocation step for them.

And I'll put in that I play the RAW at my LGS, everyone else there does too, and the tournament held there will play it that way. I guess we're Pariahs.

I didn't know putting your troops in a cave was in the game these days?

Ordinance and most blast weapons come in from above so if it scatters in that way, things get hit. If your troops were in a building being shot, then its come through an opening or blasted through the 'solid' wall. Since most 40k games take place in building like terrain, the walls aren't 500feet thick, they're not in a bunker. Its a building. The walls will be less than the thickness of tank armour. So if it can blast through tank armour, its can sure as hell blow through a weaker material, which most buildings are made out of.

And don't bring my country of origin into it. I don't insult you on your origin or intelligence, show me the same respect.

I do think it odd that they moved away from any kind of template, Flame, Blast, Lg Blast wounding models that are actually touched by the template, which would eliminate this entire issue.

helgrenze wrote:I do think it odd that they moved away from any kind of template, Flame, Blast, Lg Blast wounding models that are actually touched by the template, which would eliminate this entire issue.

I think they did it to make the shooting more streamlined. It potentially complicates any shooting that involves both normal guns and blast templates. You would have to keep track of wounds from blast markers and normal guns sepparetly. Otherwise you might have shennanegins involving using blast markers to create opportunity's for normal guns to shoot out of LOS. I know it all seems pretty straight forward when you think of single blast hitting guys out of LOS. But add in a couple more blasts and some normal guns in that unit and you suddenly have a shooting phase that last a lot longer.

I think those that are getting worked up over the loss of blasts hitting out LOS are making a bigger deal of it than it is. Yes, you can get screwed out of some shots but it's something you just plan around, when doing your turn. I think the biggest thing you can take a way from this thread is this. Currently the RAW stipulates you can't take wounds outside of LOS on direct fire blasts. Unless it gets FAQ'd from GW you just have to accept the way it is(for better or worse), at least on the tournament scene and pickup games with strangers. In friendly games, create house rules that both players agree upon.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote: we're discussing HE howitzer rounds passing through 15 feet of solid rock and hurting troops behind it,

No we aren't, we're talking about 40k.

pie zuri wrote:

I think they did it to make the shooting more streamlined. It potentially complicates any shooting that involves both normal guns and blast templates. You would have to keep track of wounds from blast markers and normal guns sepparetly.

You do have to. A squad of 5 marines with bolters shoot and wound as one, 1 wound pool. A squad of 5 bolters, 1 flamer and 1 missile launcher make 3 wound pools. 5 bolters hit and wound what they see, the flamer hits and wounds what he can see and that gets covered by his template only, a missile launcher firing a krak missile hits a single model in sight. If he uses a frag missile, then the template gets centred on a single model, anything under his blast marker gets hit. If it scatters then you resolve where it scatters to, anything under that template now is what takes the hit. The centre hole of the template shows where the krak missile 'hits', it then fragments (into the green) and hits anything under the template. So a small or large blast template is resolved as being from the centre hole, not from the model closest to the firer.

You can't mix up the wounds on a miniature unless its hit by multiple things. So if 1 miniature is hit by bolter shots, is under the flame template and the blast template he takes a possible unsaved wound from all of those 3 pools. If another miniature is directly behind him 2", is not covered by the flame template and the blast template then he takes his wound from the bolter wound pool only, if he is also within LOS of the bolter firer. Thats why when you roll to hit and wound with multiple weapons, you use different dice (different colour normally) or you must roll them in separate groups so that the different weapons wounds aren't mixed up. A flamer can't kill someone that his template hasn't hit, a bolter marine can't fire a shot that goes 6" straight and then makes a 90 degree turn around a piece of terrain, neither can a marine firing a missile launcher firing a krak missile. Just like a group that isn't under the blast template can't be wounded by the template thats hit 6" away.

They did it to avoid sniping with blasts; in 3rd ed ICs and special weapons didnt last long if blasts were about.

Of course if you have barrage and hit, 1/3rd of the time (ish) you can still snipe, to some extent

SkyD wrote:

pie zuri wrote:

I think they did it to make the shooting more streamlined. It potentially complicates any shooting that involves both normal guns and blast templates. You would have to keep track of wounds from blast markers and normal guns sepparetly.

You do have to. A squad of 5 marines with bolters shoot and wound as one, 1 wound pool. A squad of 5 bolters, 1 flamer and 1 missile launcher make 3 wound pools. 5 bolters hit and wound what they see, the flamer hits and wounds what he can see and that gets covered by his template only, a missile launcher firing a krak missile hits a single model in sight. If he uses a frag missile, then the template gets centred on a single model, anything under his blast marker gets hit. If it scatters then you resolve where it scatters to, anything under that template now is what takes the hit. The centre hole of the template shows where the krak missile 'hits', it then fragments (into the green) and hits anything under the template. So a small or large blast template is resolved as being from the centre hole, not from the model closest to the firer.

You can't mix up the wounds on a miniature unless its hit by multiple things. So if 1 miniature is hit by bolter shots, is under the flame template and the blast template he takes a possible unsaved wound from all of those 3 pools. If another miniature is directly behind him 2", is not covered by the flame template and the blast template then he takes his wound from the bolter wound pool only, if he is also within LOS of the bolter firer. Thats why when you roll to hit and wound with multiple weapons, you use different dice (different colour normally) or you must roll them in separate groups so that the different weapons wounds aren't mixed up. A flamer can't kill someone that his template hasn't hit, a bolter marine can't fire a shot that goes 6" straight and then makes a 90 degree turn around a piece of terrain, neither can a marine firing a missile launcher firing a krak missile. Just like a group that isn't under the blast template can't be wounded by the template thats hit 6" away.

Had to read your post a couple of times to figure out exactly what your saying. Not sure if these are your house rules or if this is how you think the rules are supposed to play out. Regardless...

From what I can gather these are the pertinent points your trying to make on how the weapons are used.

-You believe blast markers are used the same way as barrage markers with the only difference being you have to initially target it on a unit in LOS.

- You believe flame template markers only effect those models directly under it. Instead of of just adding to the wound pool.

-You believe it's a straightforward simple process to keep track of multiple blast/template locations in mass of figures, what models were underneath each of them, which pools allocated to which template along with any potential saving throws that might arise.

My thoughts on this.

First of all this process sounds really complicated compared to how RAW is actually stated. In your space marine example the RAW way to play it would be as follows.

Roll to hit with the three bolters. Place your blast marker on a model in LOS roll for potential scatter on blast and count up the models under it. and finally place the template and count up models underneath. Place the flame template, and count up the models underneath.

In this particular example all the weapons have the same strength and around the same AP value. You will only need to segregate the hit pools if the enemy could possibly be wanting to use cover because the AP will go through the armor (or the cover is better)or if the weapon causes instant death (and the target unit has a model with multiple wounds). That being said, if someones a new to 40k it's perfectly acceptable to have these hit piles segregated as it can be a headache to know exactly what does what.

Moving on. You now roll all those hit dice versus the majority. Using the strength of the weapon versus the majority toughness of the unit.

You now have a wound pool that you can start allocating to the enemy unit starting with the closest model. You stop when you run out of wound pool or models in in LOS of the firing unit.

This is how you suggested playing it.

Roll to hit with the three bolters. Place the blast marker down on a model in LOS, count up the models under and make sure to keep track of which models were under the blast and the spot where blast originates. Place the flame template and count the models underneath it, making sure to keep track of which models were underneath the template.

You should have three hit pools at this time. Make sure you keep them segregated as the blasts and templates only affect those models underneath them.

Roll wound on the bolters making sure to keep this wound pile separate. I can only assume this is against a majority toughness, as these are your special rules. Roll to wound the blasts. And finally roll to wound the models that were under the flame template

At this point you will hopefully have three wound piles. First start with the bolters. Wait, In your version is there a "right order"? Seeing as the "order" can make subtle changes too wound allocation. With this bolter wound pile start with the closest model until you run out of wounds or models in LOS. Next allocate blasts starting with models in the center of the blast, stopping only when out of wounds or models that were originally under the blast. Finally allocate flame template wounds to models that were originally under the template starting with what I assume is closest first (fingers crossed the bolters didn't kill them).

My question for you is. Do you really think that was a better system. In this example there weren't necessarily models out of LOS. You complicated it, just in case you come into a situation were a model was out of LOS. Remember you got to apply the rule evenly across the entire game.

This brings me to my second question. What happens when the shooting involves multiple blasts and multiple templates? Will you being taking detailed notes on where each of those blasts ends up, the models under them and it's center. Perhaps you could diagram it on a photo or just sketch it out. It all seems kinda complicated to me just so I can have the opportunity to wound models out of LOS.

In addition to making shooting take longer, Now that were treating blasts like barrages we'll now have to deal with blast sniping, granted it's a small price to pay if I can hit models out of LOS (just like in real life).

Sorry if I seem like I'm being hard on you, but you did address me directly, and I get the distinct impression you didn't bother reading any of the previous pages of the topic. Otherwise You wouldn't have come strolling in, late to the party, bringing up points that have already been discussed.

In short yes, I can see how you could possibly interpret the rules as you did (at least at first). But I think you'll find if you go over the BRB with a critical eye instead of just looking for ways to support the way you want to play the answer to what is RAW will jump out at you.

P.S. I think NZ is a beautiful country and quite jealous you live there (at least I think you were the NZ guy)

Page 15- Mixed Wounds

"If, after rolling To Wound, the wound pool contains groups of wounds with different strengths, ap values or special rules, then each of these groups is resolved separately, using the relevant method described above. You as the shooting player get to choose the order in which these groups are resolved. This allows you to place your shots where they'll do the most damage. once one group of wounds is resolved, simply move on to the next until the wound pool is empty."

Page 33- Multiple Blasts- "Roll each shot one at a time, etc"

This is how we play it and as how we have read it from the book;

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/40kexplanation.png/

I will admit I skipped posts because they seemed to be the same "I say", "You say" but the examples given always seem to be based off a normal shot like a krak or bolter shot. Which goes from point A to point B in one line, like a flamer goes from the base of the firing model to whatever it is firing at but can't hit anything beyond its template just the same as a bolter round can't go beyond its maximum distance. But a blast template has a special rule meaning it may go above its maximum distance, below it, etc due to the scatter and it can hit anything friendly or enemy. The only time the shot is discounted and does no damage is if it doesn't hit anything but bare ground or scatters off the table. Otherwise it hits a unit. Scattering blasts can affect a 2nd unit or your own if they happen to be where the shot lands.

SkyD wrote:Page 15- Mixed Wounds

"If, after rolling To Wound, the wound pool contains groups of wounds with different strengths, ap values or special rules, then each of these groups is resolved separately, using the relevant method described above. You as the shooting player get to choose the order in which these groups are resolved. This allows you to place your shots where they'll do the most damage. once one group of wounds is resolved, simply move on to the next until the wound pool is empty."

Page 33- Multiple Blasts- "Roll each shot one at a time, etc"

This is how we play it and as how we have read it from the book;

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/40kexplanation.png/

I will admit I skipped posts because they seemed to be the same "I say", "You say" but the examples given always seem to be based off a normal shot like a krak or bolter shot. Which goes from point A to point B in one line, like a flamer goes from the base of the firing model to whatever it is firing at but can't hit anything beyond its template just the same as a bolter round can't go beyond its maximum distance. But a blast template has a special rule meaning it may go above its maximum distance, below it, etc due to the scatter and it can hit anything friendly or enemy. The only time the shot is discounted and does no damage is if it doesn't hit anything but bare ground or scatters off the table. Otherwise it hits a unit. Scattering blasts can affect a 2nd unit or your own if they happen to be where the shot lands.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume the thing that is hanging you up is the line in the blast paragraph that says "hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and out of LOS"

This is of course the cornerstone to the whole debate on this topic.

Things to note in the statement.
-The term "units" is used and not "models". The book uses "unit" to reference a total group.
-You do hits and wounds before before allocating models to kill.
-Latter in the blast description they tell you to allocate as normal. Not allocate as normal excluding LOS restriction.


I know the sentence reads like blasts should hurt the models it touches(at first glance). Though that is more of a RAI thing. Read it carefully using 40k word definitions. This is generaly a case of people putting real life expectations on a fantasy weapon.

One of peoples other arguments has been why would they put a useless rule in the blast. Surly they meant for me to kill models out of LOS.

The answer of course is that the rule isn't worthless. Without it, if your blast scattered your opponent could look at the board at tell you your blast didn't have effect because it was out of LOS or range. Guaranteed we would be dealing with those topics right now.
In the end you got to some hits and rolls to wound. If luck would have it no models could be seen by the firing unit, the shot is a wiff. Most likely you'll see some model in the unit, even if your blast didn't hit them they're eligible for wound allocation. Also remember the person who fired the doesn't have to see the model. LOS is done on a unit by unit basis.

The next part of my argument is what happens if you apply wounding out of LOS. Does it integrate itself well? The answer of course is in the description I wrote in the previous post. If at the end of the day applying wounds smoothly integrated themselves into how the rules were written you would probably see me house ruling that way. But since they don't(way to much potential record keeping)I firmly put myself in the RAW camp. Not cause I'm a rules lawyer. I just like things to go without a lot of fiddlyness. I don't know about you but keeping track of multiple blasts and templates(where it hit, models underneath, which pool is which) would drive me insane.

Everything I said apply's to flame template as well. with the exception, it don't scatter.

Regarding your nicely done sketch
The resolution to the combat would be. take the 10 unsaved (I assume there was a roll to wound) and start applying them to the guys in red, closest first). Giving them any applicable saving throws. The guys in white are safe. You would also get to resolve a side hit on the vehicle. If the flamer could have potentially damaged the vehicle you could have tried hitting it also as you only need to get as many models in the target unit as possible (it couldn't have been more than one model)

Regarding mixed wounds
I've never mentioned anything against this. Certainly, nothing I've ever wrote contradicts this rule. If you have special wounds, you can save them in allocation till when you get to a model you feel it would be good on.

Multiple Blasts
Oh course you roll them one at a time. have you ever tried balancing three templates simultaneously rolling the three dice and then apply the result.

I read it as if they are out of LOS with a blast weapon post scatter, you treat them as normal, the scattered blast marker makes them come under 'normal', they were out of sight before the scatter, but being hit by a scattering blast makes them "in sight" for the duration of that attack. For those models or 'units' under the blast marker.

Otherwise you can't use wounds taken from a scattered blast that hits out of sight models on models that are within LOS. As you are no longer hitting an "in sight" part of the unit, something you can't do with a normal shooting attack. With a bolter, flamer and krak you may only hit and wound what you see. In my pic you'll see what I've meant with the scatter, its gone from that green circle on (A) and scattered to (C), only 3 models and the tank are 'hit' by that, those hits don't contribute to the reds, as only the bolters and the flamer 'hit' that area. As it scattered and 'hit' the (C) area, those models, are now treated as "in sight" for wounding and are then 'hit' and 'wounded' as per normal shooting attacks.

Just the same, if that scatter went 9" and hit a different unit or one of mine, they are then forced to take hits, wounds and saves, as per a normal attack. But if that happened and I followed the above you have given, then if I struck my unit, then I can use those wounds on my own units, to force you to 'wound' your own models. Ones I didn't hit, is that fair? No. That would be ripping you off in the game. Being my units, hit by an indiscriminate weapon after firing, I lose my unit.

From what I played in 5th, if too many models were outside of cover, then the whole unit was fair game. In 6th the rules changed, if I can't see a unit with LOS, then they are not part of the units that can be rolled "to hit" for. The blast marker works in the same way, the firing model must see what he is firing at initially, but once its fired, then events can conspire to make that shot scatter, if it scatters to an out of sight part of the unit, that part of the unit counts as "in sight" for the attacks resolution, the wounds from it will not affect people outside of the blast area, in game.

So in my example, the flamer affects one mini in red, the bolters affect the other mini's in red (Flamer goes first, he takes down 1, the bolters then come through and can hit models directly behind the mini marked A, who would have previously been out of LOS, the blast was meant to hit A but scattered to C, instead of hitting anything red like it should have, its now gone into 'hidden' units and the tank which are affected by the blast. Unit C and the 2 units by him which are also under the blast template have all died).

At the end of the shooting phase the example now appears as;

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4180/40kexplanation2.png

Ok during the whole procedure we have different steps:

1 step: to hit
2. step: to wound
3. step: allocate wounds+saving throws+removing casualties (its one thing because these 3 parts of step 3 are made model based now)

I can see step 1 and step 2 replaced by blast rule, but it says wound allocation follows the normal rules which necessarily leads to the general rules on step 3.
That would mean models out of LOS can't be allocated a wound to. Yep their unit can be wounded, but no models will suffer any unsaved wounds.
Yes that would mean the same for Hiveguards unless written otherwise in the codex (I don't have the rule present) as well as Astral aim.

stupid but it needs FAQ clarification to remove that mistake.

And I refuse to accept that GW wrote a rule that doesn't work. They made sure to include it, so it must have a purpose. Wounding is a 2 step process. You check to see if you cause a wound, then you apply that wound to a model. If you cannot do one of the two you cannot wound. Wounding and allocating are not two separate processes that don't overlap or rely on each other.

Captain Antivas wrote:And I refuse to accept that GW wrote a rule that doesn't work. They made sure to include it, so it must have a purpose. Wounding is a 2 step process. You check to see if you cause a wound, then you apply that wound to a model. If you cannot do one of the two you cannot wound. Wounding and allocating are not two separate processes that don't overlap or rely on each other.

They absolutely are separate. Rolling to wound populates the wound pool which you allocate from. They're different steps in the process.

And you're surprised that GW wrote unclear/useless rules? Do you think it's never happened before?

P. 33 BRB "Note that it is possible,
and absolutely fine, for a shot to scatter
beyond the weapon's maximum or
minimum range and line of sight.

This represents the chance of ricochets,
the missile blasdng through cover and
other random events. In these cases, hits
are worked out as normal and can hit
and wound units out of range and line ol
sight (or even your own units, or models
locked in combat)."


Two things this rule addresses:

1. Maximum Range
2. Line of sight.

It tells you two things about these:

1. Disregard maximum range - "it's fine"
2. Disregard LOS - "it's fine"


Let's not be obtuse and try to follow ALL the normal rules for shooting. IF IT FOLLOWED ALL THE NORMAL SHOOTING RULES, YOU WOULDN'T BE USING A BLAST TEMPLATE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Obviously this RAW means to use the remaining normal rules for shooting ignoring the two mentioned exceptions.

You allocate wounds based on distance from the firer. Out of range? That's OK. Out of LOS That's OK. In other words do everything as if the whole unit is in range and in LOS to the firer.

Cover saves are taken based on the intervening terrain(p.18). Sorry, but you lose the requirement to be 25% obscured, because it is "possible, and absolutely fine" to hit such models.

@Nemesor Dave

The problem is, the process of "to wound" and the process of "to allocate wounds+to remove casualties" are two different things.
If not, you had to remove models under the blast template because only those were hit and wounded. (Like it is done with barrage weapons)

But this is obviously not the case. Yes you can hit and wound models out of LOS but you can't remove models out of LOS because it is neither part of the wounding process (which is described in the blast weapons rule) nor is it possible using the general rules for allocating wounds and remove casualties.

I need something after that little sentence "Any unsaved wonds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack" like "with the exception that models out of LOS can be removed as well".

If this is not given then I must assume that the wounds are treated as if they had come from a normal shooting attack for all purposes. Which clearly means that models out of LOS are safe.

-Naz-

So you think if something scatters on top of units OUT of LOS, the wounds don't matter?

Based on rules, wouldn't the wounds just transfer to the the closest LOS units?

Remember we're not here to make the game "Unfun" by trying to use the rules against our enemy.

Thanks
Dan

No because the closest unit in sight does not have any Wound pools to allocate to it.

Remember Stormbreed, while some of us are arguing that you cannot allocate the wounds to a unit completely out of sight, most (if not all) of us don;t play that way.

Happyjew wrote:No because the closest unit in sight does not have any Wound pools to allocate to it.

Remember Stormbreed, while some of us are arguing that you cannot allocate the wounds to a unit completely out of sight, most (if not all) of us don;t play that way.

I see your point about scattering onto a whole new "Unit" out of LOS. That would throw me for a loop for sure!

Thanks
Dan

Has everyone gone mental? these rules are pretty clear and are no different from 5th ed. you scatter. if it lands on anything else, it hits them instead, even out of LOS. wounds go on that unit instead.

its really pretty cut and dry. I dont even think its written all that different from previous editions.

I think the intent of GW was to add a bit of real-world to the rules.
A Tiger fires at a Sherman but hits only a glancing blow, the delayed fuse ignites the shell a split second later taking out the grunts using the Sherman for cover.
I see the rules as matching this in the GW world as perfectly FINE.
Solid shot ammo would not do this, a miss is a miss.
It seems to me that in GW rules you can't fire blindly so blasting at a hillside hoping to get a good ricochet is ruled out.
This makes sense to me and will be our house rule.

-Nazdreg- wrote:@Nemesor Dave

The problem is, the process of "to wound" and the process of "to allocate wounds+to remove casualties" are two different things.
If not, you had to remove models under the blast template because only those were hit and wounded. (Like it is done with barrage weapons)

But this is obviously not the case. Yes you can hit and wound models out of LOS but you can't remove models out of LOS because it is neither part of the wounding process (which is described in the blast weapons rule) nor is it possible using the general rules for allocating wounds and remove casualties.

I need something after that little sentence "Any unsaved wonds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack" like "with the exception that models out of LOS can be removed as well".

If this is not given then I must assume that the wounds are treated as if they had come from a normal shooting attack for all purposes. Which clearly means that models out of LOS are safe.

If you understand LOS is not an issue, then allocating wounds is trivial. You still measure the closest model from the firer, you still get cover saves for intervening terrain and there is no confusion about what models in the unit are eligible to have wounds allocated to them.

The RAW says work out the shot as normal. Logically you exclude the parts of resolving the shot that have already been told how to perform - LOS as if the firer can see the enemy unit.

Play it out, if you take that one thing - the firer can see the unit (still allowing cover saves), then there is nothing complicated about resolving these wounds is there?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:No because the closest unit in sight does not have any Wound pools to allocate to it.

Remember Stormbreed, while some of us are arguing that you cannot allocate the wounds to a unit completely out of sight, most (if not all) of us don;t play that way.

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends."

Happy, the rule section that says a scattered shot "can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight" means the unit is considered to be in Line of Sight. You already have an exception made for LOS.

It's unrealistic to expect a repeat of the stages of resolving wounds. Like - you can hit and wound and allocate wounds and cause unsaved wounds and remove as casualties units out of range and out of LOS. If you can't allocate wounds then you can't really wound a unit that is out of range and LOS can you?

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:No because the closest unit in sight does not have any Wound pools to allocate to it.

Remember Stormbreed, while some of us are arguing that you cannot allocate the wounds to a unit completely out of sight, most (if not all) of us don;t play that way.

"If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends."

Happy, the rule section that says a scattered shot "can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight" means the unit is considered to be in Line of Sight. You already have an exception made for LOS.

Except that's not what the rules actually say. I'm sure it's what's intended though.

It's unrealistic to expect a repeat of the stages of resolving wounds. Like - you can hit and wound and allocate wounds and cause unsaved wounds and remove as casualties units out of range and out of LOS. If you can't allocate wounds then you can't really wound a unit that is out of range and LOS can you?

Yes, you can. Filling the wound pool is wounding the unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:It's unrealistic to expect a repeat of the stages of resolving wounds. Like - you can hit and wound and allocate wounds and cause unsaved wounds and remove as casualties units out of range and out of LOS. If you can't allocate wounds then you can't really wound a unit that is out of range and LOS can you?

Yes, you can. Filling the wound pool is wounding the unit.

Sometimes I think that Dakka loses sight of what is actually RAW by looking for ways to misunderstand a rule that is perfectly clear to someone who just reads carefully.

In this case though the rule plainly says if the entire unit X is out of range AND LOS you can hit and wound it. Only Dakka would think that means you can apply a wound, but can't allocate the wound as if the unit was in LOS and therefore still can't harm the unit.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:It's unrealistic to expect a repeat of the stages of resolving wounds. Like - you can hit and wound and allocate wounds and cause unsaved wounds and remove as casualties units out of range and out of LOS. If you can't allocate wounds then you can't really wound a unit that is out of range and LOS can you?

Yes, you can. Filling the wound pool is wounding the unit.

Sometimes I think that Dakka loses sight of what is actually RAW by looking for ways to misunderstand a rule that is perfectly clear to someone who just reads carefully.

In this case though the rule plainly says if the entire unit X is out of range AND LOS you can hit and wound it. Only Dakka would think that means you can apply a wound, but can't allocate the wound as if the unit was in LOS and therefore still can't harm the unit.

That's a really subtle insult - well done.

In reality, it's exactly what the rules actually say.

BRB 14 wrote:THE WOUND POOL
Finally, total up the number of Wounds you have caused. ... If all the Wounds are the same, the Wound pool will consist of only one group.

BRB 33 wrote:Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal.

Wound pool is populated.

BRB 33 wrote:Any unsaved Wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack.

BRB 16 wrote:If there are no visible models in the target unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends.

Wound pool is emptied.

I get the intent. I really do, and I've said as much.
It. Is. Not. What. The. Rules. Say.

It. Is. Not. What. The. Rules. Say.

Only if you take the "as normal" out of context.

Fragile wrote:

It. Is. Not. What. The. Rules. Say.

Only if you take the "as normal" out of context.

Rolling to wound and save as normal is fine - it's how the wound pool is populated.

You then have the second sentence that directs you to allocate "as for a normal shooting attack."
"as normal" for the wound pool has no bearing on allocation. They're completely separate rules.

Ok, thinking on this. Rigeld, your argument is that the permission "to wound out of LOS" just populates the wound pool, but then during allocation, those wounds are discarded because no model is in LOS ?

Fragile wrote:Ok, thinking on this. Rigeld, your argument is that the permission "to wound out of LOS" just populates the wound pool, but then during allocation, those wounds are discarded because no model is in LOS ?

Yes. I've said as much multiple times in the thread. That's what the rules say.

It's obvious that's not what was intended however, and not how I play it.

The rule book makes this extremely clear. It is clear for one reason.

The blast weapon being fired includes the exception saying that it can hurt models out of line of sight on scatter.

What people are basically saying is this exception doesn't count because the shooting rules say you can't hurt people out of line of sight. This doesn't make sense otherwise why have the exception????


So the simple and only conclusion is that the exception stands and that blast weapons can hit and wound things out of line of sight.