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I thought we had a long discussion on this in the past and somehow remembered that it was agreed back on 5th that you could not activate force weapons via MSS but I've been told that they can by several people. Confused yet once again from 6th changes.

Of the relevant quotes - BRB P37. force weapons - "he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a psychic test"

MSS - "There are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"




So the following question then exists: can you benefit from other abilities from the person swinging the weapon or just the weapon's abilities?

By RAW, it sounds like the MSS gave you abilities from the weapon like rerolls from lightning claws reroll to wound, or thunder hammer concussion, or rerolls from a relic blade

I don't see the MSS giving you abilities from the character swinging the weapon as it just says strength and does not mention his abilities.

Thoughts?

Activating a Force Weapon (spending the warp charge) is a psychic ability, not an aspect of the weapon. Therefore, No, you cannot make someone ID themselves.

You need to expend a warp charge, and that isn't an ability granted from the weapon, but one granted from being a Psyker.
You can use the weapons abilities, but not those of the model carrying it.
So no instant death.

Depends on how you play it. If you play it that the MSS victim also gets to use any abilities that it has (i.e. Preferred Enemy, Furious Charge, Poisoned, Smash, etc.) that is actually a trait of the model and not of its weapon, then yes you get to Force Weapon himself (or his unit) as well.

If you want to play it that the model cannot force weapon himself, then he shouldn't get to use those abilities mentioned above as well.

I am of the opinion that the model can force weapon itself due to Mindshackles.

Also, techinically, force weapon is a benefit of the weapon itself even though it requires the wielder to take a psychic test and thusly, the "controller" of the MSS can choose for it to happen.

 jy2 wrote:
Depends on how you play it. If you play it that the MSS victim also gets to use any abilities that it has (i.e. Preferred Enemy, Furious Charge, Poisoned, Smash, etc.) that is actually a trait of the model and not of its weapon, then yes you get to Force Weapon himself (or his unit) as well.

This is incorrect though. Furious Charge etc are passive effects that are always effecting the model and can't be switched off, whereas a Force Weapon is an ability that the controlling player can choose to use or not; using MSS doesn't make you the controlling player, it just makes the dude hit himself.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Depends on how you play it. If you play it that the MSS victim also gets to use any abilities that it has (i.e. Preferred Enemy, Furious Charge, Poisoned, Smash, etc.) that is actually a trait of the model and not of its weapon, then yes you get to Force Weapon himself (or his unit) as well.

This is incorrect though. Furious Charge etc are passive effects that are always effecting the model and can't be switched off, whereas a Force Weapon is an ability that the controlling player can choose to use or not; using MSS doesn't make you the controlling player, it just makes the dude hit himself.

Actually, MSS lets the controller of the MSS target choose and thus he can choose for the target to activate the force weapon.

"These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). "

- Necron codex, p. 81

However, just like last edition, in order to activate the force weapon you need to press a psychic test, and mss do not give you permission to take the test.

If you agree that MSS let you activate force weapons, then what happens if you MSS a squad's Justicator? Does that mean you then get the choice of activating the entire squads force weapons (or denying their activation)?

I'd agree that MSS do not let you take a psychic test.

Happyjew wrote:
However, just like last edition, in order to activate the force weapon you need to press a psychic test, and mss do not give you permission to take the test.

But that's precisely what it does.

The 'force' special rule is part of the weapon's special rules. The Mindshackle rules say that you can use the abilities of any weapon the model has. So if I choose to use the force ability, I then follow the rules presented for 'force', which allows the model to activate his force weapon by passing a psychic test.

I frankly don't see how a realistic argument can be made that MSS can't be used to activate a force weapon.

It is a special rule (force) that the weapon has, and MSS player can choose to use any ability that the model's weapon has.

Yes they can. They are able to do things like Daemon weapons which have a rule maing them roll D6 attacks, so it serves to reason that they can do it on Force Weapons.

 yakface wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
However, just like last edition, in order to activate the force weapon you need to press a psychic test, and mss do not give you permission to take the test.

But that's precisely what it does.

The 'force' special rule is part of the weapon's special rules. The Mindshackle rules say that you can use the abilities of any weapon the model has. So if I choose to use the force ability, I then follow the rules presented for 'force', which allows the model to activate his force weapon by passing a psychic test.

I frankly don't see how a realistic argument can be made that MSS can't be used to activate a force weapon.

It is a special rule (force) that the weapon has, and MSS player can choose to use any ability that the model's weapon has.

QFT.

 Dunwich wrote:
If you agree that MSS let you activate force weapons, then what happens if you MSS a squad's Justicator? Does that mean you then get the choice of activating the entire squads force weapons (or denying their activation)?

I'd agree that MSS do not let you take a psychic test.

Just because how you resolve MSS against a Grey Knight unit might be unclear does not change the fact that 'force' is a weapon ability and therefore can be utilized by the MSS player if he wants. There's a half dozen (at least) other issues regarding MSS (its timing vs. challenges, Cleansing Flame, etc), but that doesn't mean you simply ignore that the rules do allow you to use any ability that a weapon has.

 Dunwich wrote:
If you agree that MSS let you activate force weapons, then what happens if you MSS a squad's Justicator? Does that mean you then get the choice of activating the entire squads force weapons (or denying their activation)?

I'd agree that MSS do not let you take a psychic test.

In the case of a single-wound model like a justicar, the point is moot because he is already dead. No need to activate force aspect.

As for, say paladins with 2-W each, then yes, you either activate it for all or you don't, depending on the initiative step when MSS occurs.

However, there is a simple work-around to this....just cast Hammerhand in the beginning. Expend your warp charge so when it comes to the MSS attack, there is no more warp charge to use on the force weapon activation.

You could look at it from a narrative point of view, saying that the MSS themselves activated the Psychic Ability IMO anyways

yak, just out of curiosity, who would supply the Warp Charge to activate the Force weapon?

yakface wrote:

Happyjew wrote:However, just like last edition, in order to activate the force weapon you need to press a psychic test, and mss do not give you permission to take the test.

But that's precisely what it does.

The 'force' special rule is part of the weapon's special rules. The Mindshackle rules say that you can use the abilities of any weapon the model has. So if I choose to use the force ability, I then follow the rules presented for 'force', which allows the model to activate his force weapon by passing a psychic test.

I frankly don't see how a realistic argument can be made that MSS can't be used to activate a force weapon.

It is a special rule (force) that the weapon has, and MSS player can choose to use any ability that the model's weapon has.

I agree. Provided, of course, that the Psyker has enough warp charges left to still use the Force Weapon.

You can't steal a car that's out of gas, after all.

the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.

These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). "

In reguards to the above, I read it as the MSS gets to chose which close combat weapons are used if I have 2 weapons. Like say a lightning claw in one hand and a chainsword in the other for an example

The abilities and penalties I read as only those belonging to the weapon and not model abilities as it was seperated by the comma.

While the force weapon entry has the rules for initiating the instant death rule, it also says that the psyker and not the force weapon takes the test so while you control the weapon, you just get the strength portion of the attack as the rule just says strength and does not mention any other abilities the model posesses.

If you were controlling the model itself, I'd imagine it'd be FAQ'ed to read like the puppet master ability from telekinesis tree where it actually says you control the model as if it was yours. I just don't see the model being controlled.

In terms of the narrative, I'd always imagined the MSS like taking control of your arm and making you swing wildly at yourself or others nearby but you are still you.

 IHateNids wrote:
Yes they can. They are able to do things like Daemon weapons which have a rule maing them roll D6 attacks, so it serves to reason that they can do it on Force Weapons.

Not the same, the ability to activate comes from the unit, not the weapon. They aren't a faction wielding psykic weapons, they're psykers wielding weapons

 DeathReaper wrote:
the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.

Exactly. I've faced this scenario before.. the best course of action is to simply cast something before the close combat, so you don't have a warp charge available to activate your force weapon.

Yak - the MSS controller chooses to use the "Force" ability, but the player decides not to expend a warp charge.

Nothing happens.

No permission to make the psyker expend charges, no Force.

Warp Charge points are only available to Psykers, and Grey Knights, not being Psykers, are still able to activate their force weapons. Just as the bearer of MSS can do.

If the model wielding the FW, has no warp charges left, then you cannot activate the force weapon i.e. GK squad charges and activates HH, mss hits a GK, the gk has no warp charges to expend and therefore cannot take the force test.

Not that the psyker can be forced to expend a warp charge and take the Psychic test.

MSS only uses the abilities of the weapon.

Expending a warp charge is not an ability from his close combat weapon.

So Force weapons can not be activated with MSS.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.

 DeathReaper wrote:


"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.

I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Warp Charge points are only available to Psykers, and Grey Knights, not being Psykers, are still able to activate their force weapons. Just as the bearer of MSS can do.

GK have a collective warp charge. The justicar, or random squad model if justicar is dead or non existent, are a mastery lvl 1 psyker, and therefore have 1 warp charge. So if the charge was already spent to give them +1 str, for example, there is no warp charge left for the MSS to expend i.e. no ID shenanigans for the cheese lord to use.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Warp Charge points are only available to Psykers, and Grey Knights, not being Psykers, are still able to activate their force weapons. Just as the bearer of MSS can do.

GK have a collective warp charge. The justicar, or random squad model if justicar is dead or non existent, are a mastery lvl 1 psyker, and therefore have 1 warp charge. So if the charge was already spent to give them +1 str, for example, there is no warp charge left for the MSS to expend i.e. no ID shenanigans for the cheese lord to use.

Not true. Warp Charge points are only available to Psykers. Grey Knights are not subject to rules that effect Psykers, but are simply able to use psychic powers(throughly discussed in other threads.) Therefore not being subject to the rules starting on page 66, they do not genterate Warp Charge points, and can thus never spend them, ever.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge" P. 37

He = Psyker, the Psyker can immediately choose to activate the force ability, so he would never choose to when MSS is affecting him.

I do believe that a MSS'd psyker wouldnt choose to stab himself either, its why hes... mind... shackled...by a scarab

However, I do agree that the weapon has no quality to actually cause ID, unless the psyker has a warp charge to expend. If the psyker DOES indeed have one available, then my ruling is the MSS can cause the psyker to empower the weapon.

Fluff is not rules.

Being "mind... shackled...by a scarab" only produces the effects the rules say it produces and nothing more. this is because this is a permissive ruleset.

The MSS have no ability to expend a warp charge. The Psyker does have the ability, but even if he has been effected by the MSS he still can choose to not use the warp charge.

Does it say he can use a warp charge instead of a Psyker? If not then he can not, it is as simple as that.

Some things are implicit.

If you have a special rule that causes the opponent to suffer a wound, then it is implicit that the opponent can take whatever save is allowable to him (and FNP if he has it).

If you make a shooting attack, then it is implicit that you have range and LOS to the target and that the target is not locked in combat.

If you use a psychic power, then it is implicit that you take a psychic test.

If you choose not to expend a warp charge, then it is implicit that you don't use the psychic power.

If MSS forces you to use a psychic power (i.e. force weapon), then it is implicit that you use whatever warp charge you have and take your psychic test in order to use that power.

You are right that MSS cannot make you expend warp charge, but what it can do is to make you use the force power. And in order to use the power, voluntary or not, you have to use your warp charge and take the psychic test.

I'd like to throw my vote in for 'can' activate the force weapon. I believe the Mindshackle scarabs controlling player can choose to use any of the "...abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons..."

A quick look at the 6th edition 'Force Weapon' Entry shows that "...If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it..." which shows that the 'Force' USR is a ability of the weapon. For further verification of this please note that all force weapons contain the 'Force' USR as part of their weapon stat profile.

While the necron player is not explicitly granted permission to expend one of the psykers' warp charges nor take a psychic test to activate it; I contend that is not a seperate ability of the psyker to do so but a penalty inherent in the use of the 'Force' USR as it is written. Given the necron player explicitly may utilize any abilities and/or penalties of a given close combat weapon, i believe it is covered.