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I think you guys voting against it being able to be MSS are perhaps living in 5th edition? Because again, there is now a 'force' special rule, which is something that the WEAPON actually has which says that the psyker can activate (as in the quotes by Neorealist above).

Doing so certainly does expend a Warp Charge, but that it is part of the weapon's rule, which is precisely what MSS allows the controlling player to do.

Everyone keeps saying that MSS can't force a psyker to expend a warp charge, but nobody posts any salient reasons why.

So again:

1) 'Force' is a rule (ability) of the weapon.
2) The controlling MSS player can therefore choose to use that ability.
3) Using that ability means the model expends a warp charge and must take a psychic test.
4) Therefore, if the MSS controlling player chooses to utilize the weapon's 'force' ability then the model must expend a warp charge (if it has one) and take a psychic test to activate the weapon.

Right the Weapon has the force ability, but the Psyker still must spend the warp charge.

Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the force weapon it is an ability of the psyker himself.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the Weapon has the force ability, but the Psyker still must spend the warp charge.

Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the force weapon it is an ability of the psyker himself.

You keep saying that, but it doesn't match what the actual rules for 'force' say.

The full text for 'force' are:

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Pyschic test (see page 67)..."


So again, the special rule that the weapon has specifically grants the model the ability to activate the weapon by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test. This is explicitly granted by the weapon's own special rule.

Any distinction you have made that activating the weapon via a psychic test is somehow separate from the weapon is purely imagination, because as I have pointed out numerous times, the weapon's own rules dictate how this process is done.

Right the Psyker can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge.

Not the opponent.

Been following the thread quite intently as It is something that could come up in our next local tournament. After reading both sides arguments I am leaning on the "yes" side.

Force is now a special rule of a weapon, not an additional psychic power. The bearer of MSS gets to decide to activate or not. Heck it even mentions in the MSS entry it specifically mentions if there is a choice the MSS player can choose.

Yes, Force is now a special property of the weapon, however, you still have 0 permission to use my models Warp Charge.

Being able to use the warp charge isn't implicit when using the force weapon? Seems to me it's just part of the process. I say I want to activate it and to do so I must expend some warp charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't have my rulebook on me but surely the "force" entry explains how to use it right? I mean we are given permission to use this special rule, so it makes sense that to do so we follow the entry. My guess is that the entry then tells us that we refer to the psychic powers section on using warp charge. To the best of my knowledge we have not broken any permissions, we are simply following the rules on how to activate a weapon wih "force".

I would want to have your opinion about models who have force weapon, but is not a psyker(see ordo malleus inquisitor with terminator armour).

I know that the inquisitor is not a psyker and does not have a warp charge, but the argument for allowing the mss to activate the force weapon revolves around the weapon side and not the model.

As a side question: If you allowed mss to activate force rule who would roll for the activation ?

As another side question: For a unit with the brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers , if the justicar is not the target of the mss can he activate the weapon? Since all the tests actually go through the justicar i wonder how this should be resolved.

I'm not convinced by the "abilities" argument. While it says properties of weapons, the weapon has to have a permission from the player controlling the model to fulfill half the requirement to work.

Yes, the force weapon rules exsit as a special rule now but it still requires the psyker's participation to function. You again only control the weapon as far as I can tell. You gain the special rules for the weapon in that you can try to force but you lack the control of the model portion of the rule to actually accomplish it.

It's like you control the arm but not the mind of the model. If you were completely owning the model like it says from puppet master psy power, then I'd say you have full permission to do as you please.

So the argument is that "Force" is both a weapon special rule AND a model special rule? While I can't recall anything that states you can't have a rule like that, I personally am not buying it since it is specifically stated as a weapons special rule.

I'm now sitting here trying to think of other weapon and model special rules...

Aside from the good arguments going both ways here, me and my opponents just made a house rule that when I get them with MSS with a Force Weapon, that I can activate the Force Weapon only on a 5+ to represent the difficulty in stabbing oneself, then using your mind to fry...your mind.

DeathReaper wrote:Right the Psyker can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge.

Not the opponent.

Yes, because all rules for weapons are going to reference the model who has the weapon. Obviously when MSS takes control of a model and gets to use the weapon's abilities, then the player choosing whether to use or not use the weapon's ability gets to choose whether or not to use the ability instead of the player normally controlling the model...that's the whole point!

I mean, where would you draw the line then? So any weapon special rule which happens to involve the (normally) owning player making a choice is suddenly off-limits to a Mindshackle?

I mean, what if there was like a Daemon weapon that you could sacrifice 1 wound from the controlling model in order to boost the Strength of the weapon (or something like that), would you say a weapon ability like that was off limits simply because the normal rules text for the weapon says that the owning player is the one who decides whether to do this or not?

It just doesn't make any sense. This is a weapon ability, and the ability of the weapon is to allow the model to activate the weapon to make all its wounds instant death and this is done by expending a warp charge and passing a Psychic test. That is the 'cost' of activating the weapon. The MSS player gets to choose which abilities to use for the weapon, so if he wants to activate it then he can and the normal 'cost' for doing so would be done as normal.

pizzaguardian wrote:I would want to have your opinion about models who have force weapon, but is not a psyker(see ordo malleus inquisitor with terminator armour).

I know that the inquisitor is not a psyker and does not have a warp charge, but the argument for allowing the mss to activate the force weapon revolves around the weapon side and not the model.

If the model doesn't have a warp charge to use then the weapon cannot be activated. All I'm saying is that the MSS player gets to choose which weapon abilities to use, and if he chooses to activate the weapon then all the normal steps would be taken. So if there's no warp charge to use, then the weapon would not get activated.

As a side question: If you allowed mss to activate force rule who would roll for the activation?

The same person who would be rolling to hit, to wound, etc, with the MSS model...the rules don't really specify and I don't think it much matters which player does.

As another side question: For a unit with the brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers , if the justicar is not the target of the mss can he activate the weapon? Since all the tests actually go through the justicar i wonder how this should be resolved.

This is a tough question and one that does need to be FAQ'd by GW. However, just because this is a tough question doesn't mean that MSS shouldn't be able to utilize all of a force weapon's abilities.

 yakface wrote:

This is a tough question and one that does need to be FAQ'd by GW. However, just because this is a tough question doesn't mean that MSS shouldn't be able to utilize all of a force weapon's abilities.

Use all the weapon's abilities... go ahead. But you can't use my model's abilities too. If somehow the force weapon was given to a non psyker, you couldn't use the ID, its the psyker's ability to spend a warp charge that makes the ID happen. That's not a weapon USR, its a weapon USR that works with the use of a model ability... which you don't have permission to use.

This only seems to matter for paladins or IC silly enough not to see this coming... but I can't see this leap being allowed by the rules, and I really hope the FAQ gets out soon (I'm tired of making rulings without solid rules to go on).

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the Weapon has the force ability, but the Psyker still must spend the warp charge.

Because the 'Force' ability is activated by the MSS controlling player. When you use the Force ability as defined in the BRB (pg.37) you must expend a Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test. Why? Because it's the only way to use the Force USR.

DeathReaper wrote:Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the force weapon it is an ability of the psyker himself.

You're right in the spending a Warp Charge is not an ability of the Weapon. But it is tightly coupled to the Force USR. You can't use the Force ability of the weapon without expending a charge and taking a test. In other words, per the Force rule itself you activate it by spending a charge and taking a test. If the MSS controlling player chooses to use the Force ability of the weapon (i.e., activate) you must spend a charge and test.

-Yad



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 sudojoe wrote:
I'm not convinced by the "abilities" argument. While it says properties of weapons, the weapon has to have a permission from the player controlling the model to fulfill half the requirement to work.

Yes, the force weapon rules exsit as a special rule now but it still requires the psyker's participation to function. You again only control the weapon as far as I can tell. You gain the special rules for the weapon in that you can try to force but you lack the control of the model portion of the rule to actually accomplish it.

It's like you control the arm but not the mind of the model. If you were completely owning the model like it says from puppet master psy power, then I'd say you have full permission to do as you please.

All Force requires is the expenditure of a Warp Charge and a successful Psychic Test. If the MSS controlling player elects to activate the Force ability/property of the weapon then it necessitates the expenditure of a charge and a subsequent test. Otherwise you're not following the rules for the Force USR.

-Yad


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 Lobukia wrote:

 yakface wrote:

This is a tough question and one that does need to be FAQ'd by GW. However, just because this is a tough question doesn't mean that MSS shouldn't be able to utilize all of a force weapon's abilities.

Use all the weapon's abilities... go ahead. But you can't use my model's abilities too. If somehow the force weapon was given to a non psyker, you couldn't use the ID, its the psyker's ability to spend a warp charge that makes the ID happen. That's not a weapon USR, its a weapon USR that works with the use of a model ability... which you don't have permission to use.

This only seems to matter for paladins or IC silly enough not to see this coming... but I can't see this leap being allowed by the rules, and I really hope the FAQ gets out soon (I'm tired of making rulings without solid rules to go on).

Then you can't allow the MSS to activate the Force ability of the weapon. Meaning that if a psyker with a Force Weapon is affected by MSS the Force ability of the weapon is off limits. The reason I say this is because the rule reads that if a psyker inflicts one or more wounds he can immediate choose to activate it (Force) by using a charge and taking a test. If you agree that MSS can activate (i.e. use) the Force ability of the weapon, then the only way it can be activated is by expending a charge and taking a test. This is part of what you guys are missing. You can't say that nothing happens because then you're not following the rules for Force. A charge must be spent and a test must be taken otherwise no activation of Force.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to the Justicar question...assuming that you've accepted that you can activate the Force ability for a Force Weapon I would suggest you have the Justicar take the test. Simply because there are more specific rules governing the actual psychic test in that scenario.

All Force cares about is that to activate you must expend a charge and test. If there are additional rules affecting the psychic test that are driven by the affected unit then you should follow them to complete the Force activation.

-Yad

MSS gives us access to all the weapons Special Rules. If Force is one of them, then we have been given access to use that Special Rule, and all that entails it. If the rule says do 'this'. Then we have been given permission to do so.

You can use the rule "Force", but dont have any access to the parts that require the bearer to do something

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You can use the rule "Force", but dont have any access to the parts that require the bearer to do something

Then you're not 'using' the Force USR. The only way to use it is to spend a charge and take a psychic test. This is the cost to activating the Force ability of a force weapon. You can't de-couple the two. If you ask me to show a rule that makes the psyker expend a charge and take a test, I would quote the activation line from the Force rule itself.

If you accept that the MSS player can choose to use the Force ability of the affected model's force weapon, then you must follow the rules for Force. Can you show me a rule that allows you to avoid paying the activation cost of Force?

-Yad

WoW for a question answered early on theres alot of comments here.

Considering its almost 50/50 yes/no for this question. I don't think it has been "answered"

Again, given the permissive rule set of the game; If your given permission to all rules that apply to an item, by proxy, so too are you given permission to follow those rules.

In this instance though, if the owner of the weapon does not have a Warp Charge point to spend, then you would not be able to turn on that weapon as the rules for Force still require the point.

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You can use the rule "Force", but dont have any access to the parts that require the bearer to do something

Then you're not 'using' the Force USR. The only way to use it is to spend a charge and take a psychic test. This is the cost to activating the Force ability of a force weapon. You can't de-couple the two. If you ask me to show a rule that makes the psyker expend a charge and take a test, I would quote the activation line from the Force rule itself.

If you accept that the MSS player can choose to use the Force ability of the affected model's force weapon, then you must follow the rules for Force. Can you show me a rule that allows you to avoid paying the activation cost of Force?

-Yad

Yes - that the bearer gets to choose whether to spend warp points or not; nothing in the Force activation allows the MSS owner to force the bearer to make the choice to spend or not.

Of course, if they are NFW, and you don't activate them, then you won't get a chance. some exceptions apply.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You can use the rule "Force", but dont have any access to the parts that require the bearer to do something

Then you're not 'using' the Force USR. The only way to use it is to spend a charge and take a psychic test. This is the cost to activating the Force ability of a force weapon. You can't de-couple the two. If you ask me to show a rule that makes the psyker expend a charge and take a test, I would quote the activation line from the Force rule itself.

If you accept that the MSS player can choose to use the Force ability of the affected model's force weapon, then you must follow the rules for Force. Can you show me a rule that allows you to avoid paying the activation cost of Force?

-Yad

Yes - that the bearer gets to choose whether to spend warp points or not; nothing in the Force activation allows the MSS owner to force the bearer to make the choice to spend or not.

That's not actually addressing the concern though. The player isn't choosing to spend a charge and take a psychic test. The player is choosing to use the Force ability of the weapon. It's this choice which (if he choose to use the Force ability) then forces the player to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test.

MSS simply supplants the role the bearer has in choosing to use the Force ability of the force weapon with that of the MSS player.

-Yad

With the NFW, i would like to point out that the owning player may choose to cast Hammer Hand before the effects of MSS goes off. Preventing the models affected by MSS activating the Force rule of their weapons due in part to the unit only having one Warp Charge Point. Though, if its a character thats affected by the MSS and have more than one Warp Charge Point; They might activate their weapon in addition to whatever powers they cast before the start of the combat.

Id like to further point out that if your model failed it Psychic test and suffered a Perils of the Warp, you could then remove the model affected as a casualty, preventing him from hitting and potentially killing more models.

By granting permission to use the force weapon you have to have access to the rules that govern how to it.

Just out of curiosity, who inflicts the wounds, the model with the Force weapon, or the model with MSS?

If it's the MSS model, then you cannot utilise the Force rule, as you are not a psyker. If it's the psyker, her [the psyker] gets to choose whether or not to activate.

Permissive rule set. We have been given access to your weapons Special Rules. If it states "do this", we have been given permission to do so. Assuming we meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule of the weapon, we may.

Xzerios wrote:
Assuming we meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule of the weapon, we may.

Last I checked, Necrons have no Psykers, ergo no Warp Charges. Therefore Necrons do not meet the prerequisites to activate the Force rule.

You are correct. Necrons have no Psykers much like the Tau.

Difference is we must check if the model has the charge. Not the model with MSS. The rules for Force dont state that the Necron model has to have a Warp Charge Point, the model with the Special Rule must have the point.

If your squad of Grey Knights didnt cast Hammer Hand at the start of the turn, you have a Warp Charge Point at the start of the combat and Im about to make you use it to activate your Force Weapons for the whole Squad per the rules for Nemessis Force Weapons and how Grey Knights work as Psykers.


Does it sound cheesy? Sure does. But by the Permissive rule set, I have permission to do so.

It's the GK model using the force weapon. Can you perhaps explain how we are given permission then told we don't have access to parts of the rule. It seems an absurd argument to make since it breaks the rules for MSS. We are specifically told we can use a weapons special rules yet we are told we can't use them?