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Well good sir, you just argued the point that your own model cant activate its own Force weapon. :3

Cynicism aside here, your Force weapon calls for the expenditure of a Warp Charge point, and a Psychic test. If you cant expend the point, you dont have to test. If you have a point, you meet the requirements for the rule.

Again, the Permissive Rule set gave us permission to force this on your unit/model through the wording of the rule. As I would like to point out now, this is the RAW forum, and RAW, the point will be spent if its there, and the test will happen if the point is there. Activating your Force weapon with the rules for Force weapons.

Yes a Psyker may activate the force weapon, because a Psyker is allowed to expend a warp charge and cast a Psychic power.

The Force weapon itself does not have the ability to cast the psychic power, the model wielding it does.

MSS does not let you use my models abilities, just any abilities of my models weapons. (Please note the difference between the two).

You have no permission to use a psychic power my model has.

Permissive rule means finding a rule that forces the psyker to take the test - you can force the "Force" rule to be used, but nothing allows you to force the psyker to make the check as part o the rule, as that isnt an ability of the weapon

Then we have two very different versions of how the Permissive Rule set works in this matter. Thats fine though, go back to RAW and tell me what the rules for Force tell us to do.
Keep in mind:
MSS gave us permission to your weapons rules.
How the rules for Force weapons are written.

I said it earlier in the thread but at this stage I think it bears repeating:

By granting permission to use the force weapon you have to have access to the rules that govern how to use it.

Without this you technically couldn't utilize a lot of special rules. Hit and Run (from Nemesor Zahndrekh as an example) wouldn't work. You have the Hit and Run special rule but without having access to the rules that tell you how to use it you can't actually take an initiative test to break off from combat (taking an initiative test is only referenced under the Hit and Run rules, but are explained fully on page 7).

The Force special rule specifically states how it is activated under it's own heading (expending a Warp charge and taking a psychic test). As Force is indeed a weapon special rule once MSS grants you access to it you have to follow the rules governing how to activate it, otherwise I fail to see how Force has been allowed by the MSS controller.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"...a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

P.67 "Manifesting Psychic Powers"
"Expend Warp Charge" Section:
"When a Psyker wishes to use a psychic power, he must first expend a Warp Charge point."

Psychic test section: "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So passing a Psychic test makes the [psychic] power manifest successfully.

Force refers you to P.67 to resolve how to use the Force ability.

The ability of a Force Weapon is a Psychic power. as they refer you to how to cast a Psychic power when using a Force weapon.

A bird is yellow.
That thing over there is yellow. Is it a bird? No, it's a school bus.

Activating Force is no longer a psychic power. It's just resolved similar to one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Permissive rule means finding a rule that forces the psyker to take the test - you can force the "Force" rule to be used, but nothing allows you to force the psyker to make the check as part o the rule, as that isnt an ability of the weapon

I activate the Force special rule.
This requires a warp charge to be spent.

Find the permission allowing you choice.
By activating the Force power the warp charge is expended and the test is forced.
It's not an ability of the weapon, it's a requirement of the special rule.

DeathReaper wrote:the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

I think this is the reason why you're misunderstanding how the rules interact. Use of the Force USR doesn't allow the Psyker to choose to expend a charge, it forces them to. If the psyker decides to activate Force, per the Force USR, he [b]must[/i] expend a charge and take a psychic test. That is how the psyker 'activates' Force.

DeathReaper wrote:It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.

I agree that it's the psyker that needs to take the test, but you're missing the point of why the psyker needs to take the test (because Force was chosen to be activated by the Necron player)

-Yad




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yak - the MSS controller chooses to use the "Force" ability, but the player decides not to expend a warp charge.

Nothing happens.

My opinion on this is that you're making the same mistake that DeathReaper is making. As soon as you allow for the MSS controller to use the Force ability you must follow the rules for that ability. The rules for Force explicitly state that the only way to activate it (i.e., use) is to expend a charge and take a psychic test. There is no allowance in either the Force rule or MSS rule to decouple the cost of activation. Unless I've missed a rule in force that allows you to 'use' the Force USR without paying the cost for activating it.

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"...a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)." (37)

P.67 "Manifesting Psychic Powers"
"Expend Warp Charge" Section:
"When a Psyker wishes to use a psychic power, he must first expend a Warp Charge point."

Psychic test section: "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved"

So passing a Psychic test makes the [psychic] power manifest successfully.

Force refers you to P.67 to resolve how to use the Force ability.

The ability of a Force Weapon is a Psychic power. as they refer you to how to cast a Psychic power when using a Force weapon.

A bird is yellow.
That thing over there is yellow. Is it a bird? No, it's a school bus.

Activating Force is no longer a psychic power. It's just resolved similar to one.

Except that the Force ability tells you to (See Page 67).

What is on Page 67?

"Manifesting Psychic Powers"

And it also tells us to take a Psychic test. what happens when we take a Psychic test?

"If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested" (67)

Therefore if the test is passed we have manifested a Psychic power, something that MSS can not do as manifesting Psychic powers are not an ability of a force weapon.

Spetulhu wrote:
No permission to make the psyker expend charges, no Force.

There is no permission in the MSS rules that directly makes the psyker expend charges. The Force on the other hand explicitly requires the expenditure of a charge in order to activate (i.e., use) it. Therefore, should the MSS player choose, on behalf of the affected model, to use the Force ability of the weapon, the bearer of the weapon must satisfy the activation cost. There is nothing in the Force rule that allows the bearer to activate the Force ability without paying it's cost.

-Yad

That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Permissive rule means finding a rule that forces the psyker to take the test - you can force the "Force" rule to be used, but nothing allows you to force the psyker to make the check as part o the rule, as that isnt an ability of the weapon

The rule that forces the psyker to expend the charge and take the test is the Force rule. The part has already been quoted in this thread so I'm not sure why your asking for it. The MSS controller has chosen to activate the Force ability. what does that mean? It means that in order to activate the Force ability a warp charge must be expended and a psychic test passed. Can you show us where in the Force rules you are able to activate Force without paying its activation cost?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.

You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.

You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad

No, the Force USR does not cast the power. it does not have a Leadership score, it can not manifest psychic powers.

The psyker manifests the power by passing a Psychic test.

Yad wrote:The MSS controller has chosen to activate the Force ability. what does that mean?

All it means is you have given the Psyker the option to expend a warp charge and take the psychic test to manifest the psychic power.

DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.

You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad

No, the Force USR does not cast the power. it does not have a Leadership score, it can not manifest psychic powers.

The psyker manifests the power by passing a Psychic test.

Agreed on both points, but you're still missing the fact (crucial in this topic) that the Force USR requires, once the decision to activate has been made, that the warp charge be expended and the psychic test taken. Can you find a rule that let's you choose to activate Force and not expend a charge and take a test?

DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:The MSS controller has chosen to activate the Force ability. what does that mean?

All it means is you have given the Psyker the option to expend a warp charge and take the psychic test to manifest the psychic power.

I think you're 100% wrong on this one. The psyker does not have any option whatsoever to avoid paying the activation cost of the Force USR once the decision has been made to activate it. I'd really like to know, per the Force USR itself, how this is possible.

-Yad

I think this is pretty cut and clear, I'm surprised the poll is a dead 50/50. If there's a warpcharge available, a force weapon grants its user the ability to activate it for instant deathing any models taking unsaved wounds. MSS lets you use all bonuses and abilities granted by a weapon.

I don't see how there's any difference between 'forcing your opponent to consume a warp charge' and 'forcing your opponent to use his poison re-roll'. It's a benefit of the weapon, the fact that the model only has x number of warp-charges per turn is inconsequential.

 DeathReaper wrote:
All it means is you have given the Psyker the option to expend a warp charge and take the psychic test to manifest the psychic power.

No, the choice was made for him - Force has been activated.
Now the requirements must be bet. What are the requirements for Force?

 morgendonner wrote:
I think this is pretty cut and clear, I'm surprised the poll is a dead 50/50. If there's a warpcharge available, a force weapon grants its user the ability to activate it for instant deathing any models taking unsaved wounds. MSS lets you use all bonuses and abilities granted by a weapon.

I don't see how there's any difference between 'forcing your opponent to consume a warp charge' and 'forcing your opponent to use his poison re-roll'. It's a benefit of the weapon, the fact that the model only has x number of warp-charges per turn is inconsequential.

I think it is pretty cut and clear that MSS cannot force a psyker to expend a warp charge and take a psychic test. Honestly though I'm not surprised that the poll is about 50/50. Just goes to show that GW needs new FAQs.

Yad wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:That does not matter yad, as we have no allowance to cast an opposing psykers psychic power.

You're absolutely right that we no allowance to cast an opposing player's psychic power or powers. But that is not what's happening here. MSS does not make the opposing psyker cast a psychic power, nor does it expend a warp charge. The Force USR does.

-Yad

No, the Force USR does not cast the power. it does not have a Leadership score, it can not manifest psychic powers.

The psyker manifests the power by passing a Psychic test.

Agreed on both points, but you're still missing the fact (crucial in this topic) that the Force USR requires, once the decision to activate has been made, that the warp charge be expended and the psychic test taken. Can you find a rule that let's you choose to activate Force and not expend a charge and take a test?

A decision that lies with the Psyker manifesting the Psychic power.

This is not an ability of the weapon, because if the wielder were not a psyker then they could not utilize the force rule.

So if the Psyker wants to he can expend a warp charge to manifest the power.

All the Force special rule does is give him access to that Psychic Power.

 DeathReaper wrote:

A decision that lies with the Psyker manifesting the Psychic power.

This is not an ability of the weapon, because if the wielder were not a psyker then they could not utilize the force rule.

So if the Psyker wants to he can expend a warp charge to manifest the power.

All the Force special rule does is give him access to that choice.

No, the Force special rule

BRB wrote:If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).

MSS Forces activation. It's activated by spending a warp charge, etc. Since MSS allows the activation of Force it forces the Warp Charge expenditure.
Trying to say the choice lies with the Psyker is saying that MSS cannot activate Force.

No MSS only uses the ability of the weapon.

Force is an ability of the weapon, but manifesting the psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon. This lies within the psyker himself. The weapon simply gives the psyker access to the psychic power.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No MSS only uses the ability of the weapon.

Force is an ability of the weapon, but manifesting the psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon. This lies within the psyker himself. The weapon simply gives the psyker access to the psychic power.

In 5th that was true. In 6th that's not how the Force rule reads.
And it's also irrelevant.

Activating Force has the requirement of spending a warp charge and a test. MSS forces the activation of Force.
Where is the permission to choose to ignore the requirement?

We ignore it because manifesting a psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon, and MSS tells us to use the weapons abilities.

Force tells us to "tak[e] a Psychic test (see page 67)."

Taking a Psychic test says "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully"

So a successful test means the Force psychic power was manifested successfully.

It is how the force rule reads. Nothing has changed. (They just gave a roundabout way of finding that information).

 DeathReaper wrote:
We ignore it because manifesting a psychic power IS NOT an ability of the weapon, and MSS tells us to use the weapons abilities.

Force tells us to "tak[e] a Psychic test (see page 67)."

Taking a Psychic test says "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully"

So a successful test means the Force psychic power was manifested successfully.

It is how the force rule reads. Nothing has changed. (They just gave a roundabout way of finding that information).

Again, yellow bird, school bus.

You're making an assumption that all psychic tests manifest powers.
You're told to make a Psychic test with a rules reference to how to do so.
You're also ignoring the fact that the Force special rule requires the test to be taken. You're inserting the choice in there where there is none.

I don't care if the weapon can't manifest a psychic power. I'm not trying to. I am forcing you to activate the Force special rule on your weapon. You must now meet all the requirements of that special rule.
What are those requirements?

[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]

Happyjew wrote:
[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]

WRONG!

It's to spend a Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test!

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]

WRONG!

It's to spend a Warp Charge and take a Psychic Test!

Darn. Do at least get credit for trying?

I know I said I was done with this thread, but allow me to amend my previous post. I am done arguing in this thread. Neither side is going to budge and with the poll at 49.9999999999...and 50.000000...001, we can tell that the only way for this to be determined is for GW to get off their and release FAQs that actually address the myriad of issues (such as the power weapon confusion, scattered blasts, weapons that are not listed in the rulebook...)

Happyjew wrote:
[cross fingers]To choose to spend a Wap Charge and take a Psychic Test?

[under breath]Please be right, please be right, god, oh god please let me be right[/under breath][/cross fingers]

Nope, there is no choice to spend a charge and take the test. The choice is whether or not to activate (i.e., use) the Force ability of the weapon. If you or the Necron player chooses to do so, you must spend a charge and take a psychic test.

No soup for you!!

-Yad

Lets see if I can outline this more thoroughly for the anti-Force side. In my example, Im going to be using the Grey Knights Nemesis Force Weapons rules from page 54 of their Codex. It states that they if they have the Brotherhood of Psykers, they test with one roll to activate for the whole unit.

Pg 54 Grey Knights Codex wrote:
Force Weapons: All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll sperately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the units' Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds caused by the units Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test.

Note here that the very first sentence references us to the BRB.

Pg 37 BRB wrote:
Force
If a Psyker inflicts on or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons. Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or models that do not have a Wounds characteristic.

Well, seems pretty clear thus far. Note once more that this is a USR. More specific than whats mentioned on page 67. The reason it sites you to that page is to cover what happens for the Psychic test that this USR calls for.

I would also like to point out that this is not a Psyker power, its a USR

Page 67 covers the who and the whats for that Psychic test. Lets post these up here just for clarifications sake. Im only going to post the bolded portion from Manifesting Psychic Powers section as its what we are looking for here to conclude the rules for Force.

Pg 67 BRB, bolded section to its end wrote:
Manifesting Psychic Powers
1. Expend Warp Charge
Reduce the Psyker's Warp Charge.

2. Declare Target
If the pschic power requires a target, choose it now.

3. Take Psychic Test
The Psyker must now take a Psychic test. If the test is failed, the psychic power fails. If a double 1 or double 6 is rolled, the Psyker suffers Perils of the Warp, which is resolved immediately.

4. Deny the Witch
If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power. If the power is nullified, the attempt fails and nothing further happens.

5. Resolve Psychic Power
Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the power was not nullified by a Deny the Witch roll, it is now resolved.
Again note that the USR for Force did at no time call itself a Psychic power, yet here it has told us to go to this part of page 67 to resolve the USR for Force. Does this make it a Psychic power as folks from the anti-Force side claim? No, because if it was, it would have said so in its own rule.

So, since thats been outlined. MSS only gives us access to your model for D3 attacks at your models strength, and benefit from any special rules you have tied to its weapon. As the USR Force has outlined, its a property of the weapon, and it tells you to expend a charge, take a test, and depending on that test, you get to activate the effects of the USR, or you dont.


Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

Because you are told to reference page 67 and one of the steps is Deny the Witch.

Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

Because you can't use "Deny the Witch" on it. They clarify it because someone probably thought it was a Psychic Power and then wanted to use DtW on it. You can't.

For the MSS / Force issue, I'm convinced that MSS can activate the Force USR on the weapon. MSS rules state that if there is a choice, the Necron player get's to choose. There's a choice, so Necron player chooses.