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Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

Because otherwise there'd be a 50 page thread debating it here?

rigeld2 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

Because otherwise there'd be a 50 page thread debating it here?

We're working on it. 5 pages down, 45 more to go.

Happyjew wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

Once more folks, Force is not a Psychic Power. It simply follows the rules to resolve it as its own rules outline.

Just out of curiosity, if it is not a psychic power, why would GW need to clarify the DtW cannot be used on Force Weapon activation?

I think there are two ways you can look at the Force USR with regards to the question as to whether or not it's a psychic power

1.) No -- because the Force USR does not define itself as a psychic power
2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

These are the two that I could think off the top of my head, you may have other reasons. Either way though the point is moot. Because Force (and all it's rules contained therein) are encapsulated and applied as an ability of a weapon. As such, the MSS rule has every right to 'use' that ability.

I'll offer a more technical explanation as to why GW clarified that DtW cannot be used...I think that's because you never declare the target of the power to be an enemy model/unit (assuming you think Force is a psychic power). The target of the 'power' wound be the unsaved wound(s). that's just my reasoning based off of the wording of Force (what happens when it succeeds) and the requirements in DtW that must be met in order to get a roll.

-Yad

2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)

Just a thought,

So what the pro side are saying, is that if, at some future date, GW produces a weapon with an ability say...lets call it sacrifice, the player may sacrifice one of his own squad and boost the weapon to Str10 AP1, then a Necron player with MSS can legitimately kill one of the opposing players models to boost his attacks?

Cheers

Andrew

Depending on how the rule is worded, yes. And as long as this fabled Special Rule is tied directly to the weapon.

Again though, that situation comes down to how the rule was to be written.

Lets take the rule as worded above. The weapon has the ability to increase it's stats if a member of the squad is sacrificed to it.

I'm trying to draw a comparision between the two abilities, Force and this fabled one to show how unreasonable a demand this is. Both require input from an outside source, which I don't think is implicit to the MSS rule.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Just a thought,

So what the pro side are saying, is that if, at some future date, GW produces a weapon with an ability say...lets call it sacrifice, the player may sacrifice one of his own squad and boost the weapon to Str10 AP1, then a Necron player with MSS can legitimately kill one of the opposing players models to boost his attacks?

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Lets take the rule as worded above. The weapon has the ability to increase it's stats if a member of the squad is sacrificed to it.

I'm trying to draw a comparision between the two abilities, Force and this fabled one to show how unreasonable a demand this is. Both require input from an outside source, which I don't think is implicit to the MSS rule.

Cheers

Andrew

Going just by logic alone (because there is no actual RAW for this hypothetical rule), then if the player wants his weapon to be S10 AP1, then he would have to sacrifice one member from his squad anyways. It is a condition and also a requirement in order to make the weapon S10.

Now if MSS controls this person and forces him to make it a S10 weapon, then he would be forced to sacrifice a member of his squad. There is no other way for him to satisfy the requirement of his special weapon. He is not doing it voluntarily. He is doing it because the weapon, which is controlled by the MSS, is requiring him to do so. The only out he has is if there is no one else in the squad and thus he cannot satisfy the weapon's requirement.

Xzerios wrote:

2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)

Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)

Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?

So now are you arguing that only Psykers are able to cast Psychic Powers?

No, so avoid the strawman please

My point is that Force *is* a psyhic power, as rolling a psychic test manifests the psychic power.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)

Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?

So now are you arguing that only Psykers are able to cast Psychic Powers?

Well seeing as how psychic powers (generally) require a Warp Charge, and only Psykers generate warp Charges...

If for some reason the psyker has no warp charges can MSS activate the force power?

If not then "force" obviously isn't an attribute of the weapon. It is an attribute of the psyker.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Xzerios wrote:

2.) Yes -- with the act of spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test one could infer that it's a psychic power

This is the RAW forum. The USR Force does not define itself as a Psychic power, just because it could 'infer' itself as such is to resort to RAI which is not what we are here to do.

(Also, I know your on my side Yad; I figured Id springboard the point with that :3)

Except a consequence of passing a psychic test is a psychic power is manifested. Are you truly claiming Force *isnt* a psychic power, despite the rules on page 67 stating otherwise?

It doesn't matter whether or not you treat Force as a psychic power (even though the RAW never actually states that it is a psychic power ). You still haven't provided a reason as to why the MSS player can choose to use (activate) Force and the psyker can choose not to expend the charge and take the test. Can you provide a rule in the Force USR that allows the psyker to avoid paying the cost of Force when a decision has been made to activate it?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:
If for some reason the psyker has no warp charges can MSS activate the force power?

If not then "force" obviously isn't an attribute of the weapon. It is an attribute of the psyker.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here as Force is now an actual ability of a weapon, eligible for MSS.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, so avoid the strawman please

My point is that Force *is* a psyhic power, as rolling a psychic test manifests the psychic power.

I think that this is a decent inference to make, and I would tend to agree with you. It's just not relevant to the overall mechanics of Force and MSS.

Choose to activate Force means you must spend a charge and take a psychic test. That is RAW. Can you demonstrate otherwise?

-Yad

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, so avoid the strawman please

My point is that Force *is* a psyhic power, as rolling a psychic test manifests the psychic power.

No, it's not. It's a special rule. See what section it's in?

You're told to roll a Psychic Test. The page reference is to tell you how.
Nothing in the rules calls Force a psychic power.
Your statement means that literally anything requiring a Psychic test is a psychic power.
You sure you want to say that?

Also, it doesn't matter.
Force is a weapon ability - we know that because it's listed under the weapon, not the Psyker.
MSS allows the ability to be activated.
What are the requirements of the Force ability?

The Force ability only allows the Psyker with the weapon the ability to choose to manifest the power.

That is all the force ability does on its own.

An Inquisitor without psychic ability can not use the Force ability.

That right there tells us that Force does nothing but allow access to the psychic power.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Force ability only allows the Psyker with the weapon the ability to choose to manifest the power.

That is all the force ability does on its own.

An Inquisitor without psychic ability can not use the Force ability.

That right there tells us that Force does nothing but allow access to the psychic power.

Not true. The force ability has requirements that must be met to activate the ability.
An inquisitor can't meet the requirements, hence cannot activate the ability.
There is no Force psychic power. That's a holdover idea from 5th.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Force ability only allows the Psyker with the weapon the ability to choose to manifest the power.

That is all the force ability does on its own.

An Inquisitor without psychic ability can not use the Force ability.

That right there tells us that Force does nothing but allow access to the psychic power.

Not true. The force ability has requirements that must be met to activate the ability.
An inquisitor can't meet the requirements, hence cannot activate the ability.
There is no Force psychic power. That's a holdover idea from 5th.

Not at all. It is true in 6th as well.

Force tells us to "tak[e] a Psychic test (see page 67)."

Taking a Psychic test says "If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully"

So a successful test means the Force psychic power was manifested successfully.

Force is a Psychic power because after you take the psychic test and pass you successfully manifest the psychic power.

It is how the force rule reads. Nothing has changed from 5th ed.

So it's not a weapon special rule?

That's interesting.

Your still unable to break the rule for MSS which gave us permission to use your weapons Force Special rule.

There is nothing in the MSS rule that allows you permission to use a psyker's warp charge.

The force special rule says the psyker "May choose" to expend a warp charge on a successful wound roll.

All the MSS rule states is that the MSS controller chooses which weapon the opponent uses and then the attacks benefit from all of the bonuses or penalties of the weapon.

Nothing is stopping you from using the force benefit of the weapon without spending a warp charge. It just doesn't have any effect. MSS never gives permission to activate a force weapon by expending a warp charge, that option is strictly up to the psyker "by raw".

Kevlar wrote:
There is nothing in the MSS rule that allows you permission to use a psyker's warp charge.

The force special rule says the psyker "May choose" to expend a warp charge on a successful wound roll.

All the MSS rule states is that the MSS controller chooses which weapon the opponent uses and then the attacks benefit from all of the bonuses or penalties of the weapon.

Nothing is stopping you from using the force benefit of the weapon without spending a warp charge. It just doesn't have any effect. MSS never gives permission to activate a force weapon by expending a warp charge, that option is strictly up to the psyker "by raw".

It says that the psyker may choose to activate it.
MSS forces the activation.

rigeld2 wrote:
There is nothing in the MSS rule that allows you permission to use a psyker's warp charge.
MSS forces the activation.

Please quote me the line where MSS forces the psyker to choose to expend a warp charge.

rigeld2 wrote:
It says that the psyker may choose to activate it.
MSS forces the activation.

MSS does not force the activation.

It only uses the abilities of the weapon. Expending a Warp Charge and Taking a Psychic test is not an ability of the weapon, as the weapon can not do these things.

Thus Force allows a Psyker the ability to cause ID, but Force itself does not cause ID.

Force, without a Psyker does nothing. Force with a non psychic Inquisitor is just an AP3 weapon.

rigeld2 wrote:
So it's not a weapon special rule?

It is a Special Rule of a weapon, albeit one that allows a Psyker to cast a psychic power that makes the wounds inflict Instant Death.

MSS allows me to use the weapons special abilities.
Force is a weapon special ability.
I activate force.
The requirements must be met.
What are the requirements of the Force weapon special ability?
Can anyone answer that question or is it going to be ignored for a third time?

I can't vouch for anybody else, but as for me, I'm going to keep ignoring it

Force does nothing on its own.

It is not comparable to say armor bane.

Force allows a Psyker to cast a psychic power.

if the model wielding the weapon is not a psyker force is useless therefore force is not an ability of the weapon, but the ability of the Psyker wielding the weapon.


Edit: "What are the requirements of the Force weapon special ability?"

There are no requirements.

Nothing is required to wield a weapon with the Force special rule.

A force weapon requires a psyker to choose to manifest its power, just like any other psychic power.

It only gives the psyker a choice, nothing more.

That's not what I asked.
There aren't any requirements to wield it, no. That's irrelevant.
The activation doesn't cause ID, the Force ability does.
It must be activated.
MSS forces the activation.
Why are you inserting the choice of ignoring that activation?

MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

 DeathReaper wrote:
MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

No, that would not be true.
A non psyker cannot meet the requirements of a) spending a warp charge and b) making a psychic test. Therefore a non-psyker cannot activate Force.
MSS forces the activation and therefore the requirements must be met (if possible).