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 DeathReaper wrote:
MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

The first line of your post Death made me face palm. In order to activate the weapons Special Rules for Force, you must look up the rules for Force. Not every Psyker model has the weapon mind you.

When you get down to the rules for Force as it is written, it can make you use a charge, and make you take a Psychic test, and activate the Force rule for the weapon.

If your going to argue the Psyker gets to choose, if I get MSS to work, that model for all intensive purposes is mine with the express limits to his strength, weapon choice, and the weapons Special rules. I get to make any decision for that model in that combat. I will activate its Force weapon, and as the rule calls for the Psyker to choose to invest the point, I will choose to expend the point (should the model have one) as the rule on the weapon calls out for.

You dont get to decide, I do as Im the one activating the rule.






Now, to the biggest hamper in the argument. This is moot against non-character models with Force weapons as they would rather cast Hammer Hand in that combat or will have spent the one point for non Grey Knight armies in the Shooting Phase.

Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

So you're saying MSS cannot activate Force?
Note that that's different from saying MSS can activate Force but the Psyker can choose not to meet the requirements (which is what I thought you to be arguing until now).

The weapon has an ability. MSS forces that ability to be used. Where's your ability to say loljk not going to activate that coming from?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

So you're saying MSS cannot activate Force?

Sort of, as Force does nothing when wielded by a non-psyker.

That solidifies that the force activation is an ability of the psyker (Albeit one granted by the weapon to the psyker), and the activation is not an ability of the weapon itself.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?

If not then activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

So you're saying MSS cannot activate Force?

Sort of, as Force does nothing when wielded by a non-psyker.

That solidifies that the force ability activation is on the psyker, and the activation is not an ability of the weapon.

A non-psyker is not activating Force.
MSS is forcing the activation by your model.

A non-psyker is not activating Force.
MSS is forcing the activation by your model.

You cannot force the model to expend the charge. You can use the special property of the weapon as much as you like, it simply doesn't do anything without the model wielding the weapon choosing to expend the charge.

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:

A non-psyker is not activating Force.
MSS is forcing the activation by your model.

You cannot force the model to expend the charge. You can use the special property of the weapon as much as you like, it simply doesn't do anything without the model wielding the weapon choosing to expend the charge.

The model spends the charge to activate.
I'm forcing the activation.
Why does the psyker get to choose not to activate?

I rather think Death nailed it a few posts back "can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?"

rigeld2 wrote:
The model spends the charge to activate.
I'm forcing the activation.
Why does the psyker get to choose not to activate?

Because the weapon, in the hands of a non Psyker does not activate.

So the Warp Charge expenditure and LD test are not an ability of the weapon.

MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The model spends the charge to activate.
I'm forcing the activation.
Why does the psyker get to choose not to activate?

Because the weapon, in the hands of a non Psyker does not activate.

So the Warp Charge expenditure and LD test are not an ability of the weapon.

MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?

You're separating the Force ability out to some half psychic power half weapon ability. On what basis?
The expenditure and LD test are not a weapon ability, I've never claimed that they are.
They are required, however, when the Force ability is activated.

And you keep bringing up non-Psykers like its a relevant example. It's not.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
MSS does not force the activation, as the activation is an ability of the psyker wielding the weapon, and not that of the weapon itself.

This is true because a non psyker wielding a weapon with the force ability can not use that ability. and if Force were an ability of the weapon anyone could use it, but that is just not true.

No, that would not be true.
A non psyker cannot meet the requirements of a) spending a warp charge and b) making a psychic test. Therefore a non-psyker cannot activate Force.
MSS forces the activation and therefore the requirements must be met (if possible).

That is true, a non psyker or a psyker with no remaining warp charges can wield a force weapon the same way a psyker who chooses not to expend a warp charge does.

The force USR still works, as a power weapon of whatever type it is (axe, sword, mace). The MSS rule doesn't affect this. The psyker can choose or not choose to activate the instant death part of the force USR. That is what the force USR states.

NOTHING in the MSS rule forces the wielder of a force weapon to expend a warp charge.

Kevlar wrote:
The force USR still works, as a power weapon of whatever type it is (axe, sword, mace). The MSS rule doesn't affect this. The psyker can choose or not choose to activate the instant death part of the force USR. That is what the force USR states.

There's no "instant death part of the force USR". It's a weapon special ability. MSS is expressly permitted to use weapon special abilities.
You can't activate Force and then "oh, nm, I've decided not to".

NOTHING in the MSS rule forces the wielder of a force weapon to expend a warp charge.

You're right. That part is in the Force rule.

On the basis that it is a psychic power.

The rules for "Take a psychic test" tells us it is a psychic power that is being manifested.

rigeld2 wrote:"So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?

Because MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

Taking a psychic test and expending a warp charge are not an ability of the weapon.

this is true because the weapon in the hands of a non psyker never activates.

So the Force USR states that the psyker can activate 'it'. 'It' in that case being the force weapon. Ergo, 'Force' is a property of the weapon itself, not something intrinsic to any given psyker in 6th ed.

So under normal circumstances the psyker can choose to:

1) Activate the 'Force' property of his weapon.
2) Not activate the 'Force' property of his weapon.

And under Mind-Shackled circumstances the psyker can (has to) choose to:

1) Activate the 'Force' property of his weapon.

As an essential part of following option 1)? The Psyker is required (as in, this is 'not' optional) to "...activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test..." (as per the 'Force' USR)

So, some thoughts on the above:
A) There is no possible way for the psyker to activate the force property on his or her weapon without expending a warp charge and taking a psychic test. It is all one rule; the latter half of which is 'not' voluntary if the 'activate force property' action is selected for any reason.
B) The player controlling the necron model with Mind Shackle Scarabs can 'force' a model to activate any of its' weapons' properties.
C) This happens regardless of wether or not such is beneficial or detrimental to the effected model or wether or not additional costs must be paid other than the declaration of intent to use the weapon ability.
D) Mindshackle scarabs cannot 'force' a model to pay a cost for activating an ability which is impossible. (in this case if the warp charge is already spent earlier and the psyker does not have another one available)

 DeathReaper wrote:
On the basis that it is a psychic power.

The rules for "Take a psychic test" tells us it is a psychic power that is being manifested.

rigeld2 wrote:"So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?

Because MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

Taking a psychic test and expending a warp charge are not an ability of the weapon.

this is true because the weapon in the hands of a non psyker never activates.

This logic goes circular. Note though the out point is the fact that my model with MSS isnt the model with Force. What does your Force rule tell you to do (cause at this point, its not my model sir, its yours with me in the pilots seat)?


RAW for the rule of Force mandates that your model expend the charge (if it has it) and take the test. Again, this isnt my rule Im following, its yours. I point back to General vs Specific at this point. The rules for Force are listed as a USR; More specific than my models MSS rule. Even though my rule normally doesnt grant me the ability to make you take a Psychic test or even expend a point, this one does and I have been given access to the more specific rule.

The model may expend a warp charge to activate the ability of its weapon if it so chooses, the ability cant activate without that first step. You can use the special rule but only if you can supply your own charge, the target psyker is under 0 obligation to do so on your behalf.

Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that mindshackle scarabs 'forces' you to activate the weapons properties at the sole discretion of the necron player?

You do not appear to get to decide 'not' to use a given weapon property (in this case 'force', but we could just as easily be discussing a weapon which has some other optional effect) just because you feel that other rules apply to it. (or any other reason short of 'it's impossible to do so' so far as i am aware).

'forces' you to activate the weapons properties at the sole discretion of the necron player?

MSS - "There are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons"

What the rule states and what you claim it states are quite different.

You may want to include more of the MSS rules text than your quote there. Allow me: "...These are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

which brings us full circle back to the point Death made.

 DeathReaper wrote:
On the basis that it is a psychic power.

The rules for "Take a psychic test" tells us it is a psychic power that is being manifested.

rigeld2 wrote:"So you're tying the activation to the charge/LD test rather than the activation forcing the use of the charge/LD test.
Why?

Because MSS only allows you to use the abilities of the weapon.

Taking a psychic test and expending a warp charge are not an ability of the weapon.

this is true because the weapon in the hands of a non psyker never activates.

You appear to be suffering from 5th editionitus. Yes, you are correct in that taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon, but Force is. What happens when the choice is made to use the Force ability of the weapon? What specifically do the rules for Force say must happen in order to use the Force USR? Unless you're reading a different Force rule from me, these questions should be rhetorical. As soon as the decision to use the Force ability of a weapon is made you absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, must spend a charge and take a psychic test. Where in the Force rule does it give you choice to activate (i.e., use) the Force USR yet not spend the charge and take the test? Can you point to that line in the rules?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
which brings us full circle back to the point Death made.

Which is irrevocably flawed. It truly doesn't matter whether Force is defined as a psychic power or not. All that matters is that the MSS player can choose to use the Force ability of the weapon. I would be very surprised if anyone in this thread disputed that. If so, I would be very interested in your reasoning.

Once you accept that the MSS controller can force the bearer of the Force Weapon to use the Force ability of that weapon, you must follow the rules for the Force USR (pg.37). This means that the decision to use the Force ability has, at this point, been made. So to satisfy this, you must spend a charge and take a test. There is no way to decouple the decision to activate Force from the act of spending a charge and taking a psychic test. It simply can't be done.

All this talk about the psyker being able to choose to spend a point is just nonsense. All the psyker can do, in the normal course of play, is to choose whether or not to use the Force ability. If he chooses to do so, he must spend a charge and take a test. All the MSS does is supplant the choice the psyker has to use Force with that of the MSS controller. You still must spend a charge and take a test if the MSS controller chooses to activate the Force ability of the weapon.

-Yad

Lt.Soundwave wrote:which brings us full circle back to the point Death made.

Which quote are you referring to? Is it the one where he erroniously indicates that activation of the 'Force' USR for any reason would not in turn 'force' the psyker to expend a Warp Charge (if he or she has one) and take a leadership test?

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I rather think Death nailed it a few posts back "can the weapon roll the LD check or use a Warp charge of its own?"

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? The Force USR is now a special rule that a weapon can have (i.e., weapon ability, weapon property, etc). MSS explicitly allows you to use any weapon special rule of the affected model. MSS never directly forces the affected model to take a psychic test and expend a charge. The Force USR does that.

-Yad

Yad wrote:
You appear to be suffering from 5th editionitus.

Not at all, as force is a psychic power.

Yad wrote:
Yes, you are correct in that taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon, but Force is. What happens when the choice is made to use the Force ability of the weapon?

If the psyker chooses to activate it he follows the instructions.

Yad wrote:
What specifically do the rules for Force say must happen in order to use the Force USR? Unless you're reading a different Force rule from me, these questions should be rhetorical. As soon as the decision to use the Force ability of a weapon is made you absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, must spend a charge and take a psychic test. Where in the Force rule does it give you choice to activate (i.e., use) the Force USR yet not spend the charge and take the test? Can you point to that line in the rules?

MSS do not choose to use the force ability, they can not, as Force does nothing unless the Psyker immediately chooses to activate it by
expending a Warp Charge point and takes a Psychic test (see page 67).

As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.

And as you have agreed "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" So Force is still on the psyker to choose to spend that point.

DeathReaper wrote:And as you have agreed "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" So Force is still on the psyker to choose to spend that point.

This is where you are making an error in logic:

The choice the Psyker can make is wether to (or not, normally) activate the force property of his weapon. If he does activate it (or is forced to) the player of the psyker then has to follow the rules for the Force USR which Require the psykers' player to expend a warp charge and makes a leadership check on it's behalf.

There is no possible rules-legal way for the Force property of the weapon to be activated without following the rules for the Force USR which require the warp charge expenditure and leadership check. None.

Except that, as I have shown, the expenditure of a Warp Charge point, and taking a psychic test IS NOT an ability of the force weapon.

As I have shown because a Force weapon in the hands of a non-psychic inquisitor can not use the force ability. Therefore Force only grants the Psyker a choice to cast the Psychic power. MSS can not cast a psychic power of the model it only benefits from the weapons abilities.

Remember you only "benefit from any abilities... from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

You get a choice of which weapon to use, and you use all of the Weapons abilities.

But taking a psychic test and expending a Warp Charge point are not amongst the Weapons abilities.

Sadly you have not actually proven that from what i can tell. To activate the 'Force' USR on the weapon requires a Warp Charge and a Leadership check to be made on behalf of the model with the force weapon being activated. Just because a (non-psyker) inquisitor can get his grubby inquisitorial mittens on a force weapon without the necessary warp charges to activate it does not mean that a model that actually 'has' warp charges cannot do so.

I realise you may be tired of hearing this: but the Necron model in this scenario is not the one that is being chosen to activate the force weapon nor paying the costs to do so. The MSS-ed psyker is. The only thing that the MSS wargear is doing in this case (that is relevant to your comment) is allowing the Necron player to make the choice to activate the weapon or not rather than the Psyker-owning player deciding wether or not to do so.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
You appear to be suffering from 5th editionitus.

Not at all, as force is a psychic power.

Which, if one were to actually accept that Force is a psychic power, is irrelevant for the purposes of MSS acting upon it. The Force USR also doesn't say that it's a psychic power. Which makes me curious, are there any 6th edition BRB psychic powers, outside of the actual psychic power section in the back of the book, that say they are a psychic power?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
Yes, you are correct in that taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon, but Force is. What happens when the choice is made to use the Force ability of the weapon?

If the psyker chooses to activate it he follows the instructions.

Yes, and if the psyker is affected by MSS the ability of the psyker to choose to activate Force is supplanted by the MSS player.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
What specifically do the rules for Force say must happen in order to use the Force USR? Unless you're reading a different Force rule from me, these questions should be rhetorical. As soon as the decision to use the Force ability of a weapon is made you absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, must spend a charge and take a psychic test. Where in the Force rule does it give you choice to activate (i.e., use) the Force USR yet not spend the charge and take the test? Can you point to that line in the rules?

MSS do not choose to use the force ability, they can not, as Force does nothing unless the Psyker immediately chooses to activate it by
expending a Warp Charge point and takes a Psychic test (see page 67).

Then you must be reading a different rulebook then me. Cause when I turn to the special rules section and read the Force entry on pg.37 (I think) I see the rules for the Force USR. Does not the MSS rule allow the Necron player to use any special rule that the affected model's weapon(s) may have? Force is a special rule for a force weapon, thus eligible for MSS. Surely you can see how that works, yes?

 DeathReaper wrote:
As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.

Wow, so you really don't think that the Force USR is an ability (special rule) of the Force Weapon? That's kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And as you have agreed "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" So Force is still on the psyker to choose to spend that point.

Again, you make the same mistake. The psyker is choosing to activate Force when they score an unsaved wound with the Force weapon. That's all they are choosing to do. Score an unsaved wound...activate Force. The choice to activate Force then necessitates an expenditure of a warp charge and a successful psychic test.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.

Wow, so you really don't think that the Force USR is an ability (special rule) of the Force Weapon? That's kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me.

-Yad

It is kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me that you can not see that all force does is allow the psyker wielding the weapon access to the Psychic power held within.

 Neorealist wrote:
I realise you may be tired of hearing this: but the Necron model in this scenario is not the one that is being chosen to activate the force weapon nor paying the costs to do so. The MSS-ed psyker is. The only thing that the MSS wargear is doing in this case (that is relevant to your comment) is allowing the Necron player to make the choice to activate the weapon or not rather than the Psyker-owning player deciding wether or not to do so.

No actually the Necron player does not have a choice, he will "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

He only has a choice between close combat weapons if there is a choice.

you always use the abilities and penalties from the CCW.

Sadly you do not have the choice to activate the force weapon, nowhere in the MSS rules gives you that permission.

Wait, I just realized something. we are looking at this all wrong. MSS benefits from any abilities the weapon has. Force is not an ability. It is a special rule.