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 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
As you said "taking a psychic test and expending a charge are not an ability of the weapon" MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons (If you do not agree then I can help no further, as I am reading the sentence correctly), so if there is a choice of close combat weapons the MSS gets to choose which weapon to use, but only benefits from the abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons.

Wow, so you really don't think that the Force USR is an ability (special rule) of the Force Weapon? That's kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me.

-Yad

It is kind of a big deal and frankly quite astonishing to me that you can not see that all force does is allow the psyker wielding the weapon access to the Psychic power held within.

Let's assume for the moment that I accept that Force is a psychic power even though the RAW doesn't label it as such. Why does that matter? How are Force Weapon entries in the BRB tied to the Force USR? Force is not intrinsic to the wielder, it's an ability of the weapon. Choosing to use the Force USR causes the wielder to expend a charge and take a test. I think you'll agree that MSS lets you use any ability of the weapon. Why do you have a problem with the MSS player choosing to activate Force on behalf of the wielder, just like any other ability that can be activated/used?

You seem to have this mindset that because the Force USR is a psychic power it cannot be an ability of the weapon because the psyker needs to choose to use a charge and take a test. That reasoning fails because:

A.) The psyker isn't choosing to spend a charge and take a test. The psyker is choosing, per the Force rules, to activate Force when one or more unsaved wounds are made.
B.) Force is never labeled, per the Force rules themselves, as a psychic power.
C.) The Force USR is an ability of the weapon, not the psyker. The Force USR is never applied directly to the psyker. Force, and all its rules therein, are applied to the weapon. As such it can be affected by MSS.

-Yad

Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.

What choice does the Force ability offer, other than wether or not to activate it? Do you think the psychic test and warp charge expenditure are optional for some reason?

Gentlemen, the anti Force side wins.

Controlling Player vs Opposing Player on page 8, the rules for Force state within it 'he'; In this case referencing the Psyker model itself and due in part to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player, the owning player chooses in this case.


The owner would be silly to activate it of course, but that clears this up. No Force for the Necrons. :3

The more specific codex rule for Mindshackle Scarabs trumps the general 'Controlling Player vs Opposing Player' rule on page 8. if it didn't? MSS wouldn't do anything at all (let alone force an activation of the force USR).

No sir, you misunderstand. MSS gives us access to Strength, Weapon choice (which trumps the Player rule), and Special rules. RAW states that the 'he' (the Psyker) chooses to expend the point. MSS did not give us permission to make choices in USRs, only to choose to use them. If a choice comes up in one of those rules where the model chooses to do x. Its still on the Player that owns the model to choose in that instance as the rule reads for the model to make the choice which defers us back to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player.

The power of the choice to expend the charge is still outside the scope of what MSS allows us to do as it has outlined what we have permission to do. We sure do have access to the rule, but again, the rule calls for the model owner to choose and thats something that MSS doesnt let us control.

MSS gives access to the ability. Saying that the psyker gets to choose is denying access to the ability.

Bottom line, Is it his model or our model?

Xzerios wrote:
Bottom line, Is it his model or our model?

It's the opponents.
But the MSS has control of it - as the rule says. If the charge+LD is a requirement of activation, MSS can force it.
If the charge+LD is a psychic bower that Force creates and that's what causes ID, despite the lack of clear language saying so and only an inference to say it is, then MSS cannot use the Force ability.

Bottom line.

No. The RAW for MSS only gives the MSS model permission to activate Special rules attached to the weapon of the target model. RAW in this case, this Special rule calls for the Psyker model to choose to invest the point. We are not the owner of the model and RAW at that point the owner chooses, merely controlling it for D3 Attacks at its own Strength and Special rules and penalties that the weapon we choose confers to the model.

Its the wording of the rules for Force that disallows us to activate it. Had the word 'he' been written as 'attacker'; It could then be swung to MSS favor as it us attacking with that model.

I suspect you may be making the same logical mistake as deathreaper did earlier: Once the Force USR itself has been used as a weapon property it does not offer a subsequent 'choice' to expend the warp charge and make the leadership check; those are 'required' as a result of choosing to activate the Force USR.

In other words if the MSS controller chooses to have the psyker activate his or her force weapon (which as a weapon ability they are explicitly allowed to do via the intervention of MSS) the psyker then 'has' to do all the other stuff the Force USR requires. They can not and may not skip any of it unless it's impossible to do (for example if they (the MSS-ed model) does not have a warp charge for some reason).

The only problem is that the choice to expend the charge is the owner of the model as the rule for Force is written.

Dont get me wrong, we can still choose to 'activate' Force weaponry, but when it comes time to expend the Warp Charge point, the way the rule for Force is written, its the owner of the models choice. MSS does not allow us to change the way the rule is written to satisfy its own requirements.

Sort of, normally the choice is to activate the force weapon or not. (which in this situation the player with the psyker would likely be foolish to do on his own, to be sure)

However If one has chosen to do that for any reason; there are no subsequent choices to make on wether or not to spend a warp charge and/or make a leadership check; they are requirements for following through on that original choice.

As per the force USR: "...he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)..."

Note the USR only uses the word 'choose' once, and that is a decision on wether or not to activate the weapon to begin with.

 Neorealist wrote:
Sort of, normally the choice is to activate the force weapon or not. (which in this situation the player with the psyker would likely be foolish to do on his own, to be sure)

However If one has chosen to do that for any reason; there are no subsequent choices to make on wether or not to spend a warp charge and/or make a leadership check; they are requirements for following through on that original choice.

As per the force USR: "...he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)..."

Note the USR only uses the word 'choose' once, and that is a decision on wether or not to activate the weapon to begin with.

Completely correct, but the word 'he' in the sentence for choosing to activate it reads to the model itself. In this case, the owner of the model gets to choose whether or not to spend the point. The confusion that comes from the pro-MSS side is that it is our MSS model that is the 'he', yet it is in fact not the noun the sentence is directed at.

See what Im saying?

I do see what you are saying. I just believe that MSS temporarily changes the person who gets to make weapon activation decisions for the 'he' mentioned in the rules text from the Psykers' player to the Necron player.

The reason i believe this is because MSS explicitly allows one to choose which weapon abilities to use if there is a choice involved in doing so.

And as I pointed out earlier, Force is a special rule, not an ability of the weapon.

Yup, and I lol-ed then too.

Happyjew wrote:
And as I pointed out earlier, Force is a special rule, not an ability of the weapon.

Thats pretty obvious, but RAW is the only reason your correct. MSS doesnt change ownership of the model. Just in this combat are we allowed to attack with it for the outlined material by MSS. As the rule for Force calls out, its the models choice with the word 'he' and the rule for Controlling Player vs Opposing Player states that any time a choice is to be made by a model, its the owner of the models choice; Not ours.

I said that on Page 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:
the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.

Rules and page numbers next time then! Haha

Yea, I did not even think to check the rules about Controlling Player vs Opposing Player on page 8.

I knew I had read something to that effect, but could not figure out where it came from.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.

I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test. If so you're wrong. The choice is about whether or not to activate Force when you score an unsaved wound with a weapon that has access to the Force USR. If you choose to activate Force you are then directed to, per the Force USR rule, use a warp charge and take a psychic test.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:
Gentlemen, the anti Force side wins.

Controlling Player vs Opposing Player on page 8, the rules for Force state within it 'he'; In this case referencing the Psyker model itself and due in part to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player, the owning player chooses in this case.


The owner would be silly to activate it of course, but that clears this up. No Force for the Necrons. :3

Not quite. The MSS rules overrule the general rule about Controlling vs. Opposing player actions.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:
... RAW states that the 'he' (the Psyker) chooses to expend the point. MSS did not give us permission to make choices in USRs, only to choose to use them. If a choice comes up in one of those rules where the model chooses to do x. Its still on the Player that owns the model to choose in that instance as the rule reads for the model to make the choice which defers us back to Controlling Player vs Opposing Player.

Part of what you're getting wrong here is the assumption that the psyker is choosing to spend a warp charge. That's not the choice being made. As I stated earlier, the choice being made is about whether or not to activate Force. If yes, then spend charge and take test.

Xzerios wrote:
The power of the choice to expend the charge is still outside the scope of what MSS allows us to do as it has outlined what we have permission to do. We sure do have access to the rule, but again, the rule calls for the model owner to choose and thats something that MSS doesnt let us control.

I agree that the ability to force the psyker to directly spend the warp charge is beyond the capabilities of MSS. You're making a mistake though in thinking that is how Force works and how MSS interacts with it. You can't say that MSS has access to the Force rule, but then cannot 'force' the bearer to satisfy the activation requirements. The act of choosing to use the Force USR necessitates a warp charge and a psychic test. I repeat it until someone can prove otherwise... Can you demonstrate, within the rules for the Force USR, the capability to activate Force and not have to pay the charge and take a psychic test? If so, then I would agree with you. Obviously I don't think it's possible, but I'd like to see your reasoning.

-Yad



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
Sort of, normally the choice is to activate the force weapon or not. (which in this situation the player with the psyker would likely be foolish to do on his own, to be sure)

However If one has chosen to do that for any reason; there are no subsequent choices to make on wether or not to spend a warp charge and/or make a leadership check; they are requirements for following through on that original choice.

As per the force USR: "...he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)..."

Note the USR only uses the word 'choose' once, and that is a decision on wether or not to activate the weapon to begin with.

Completely correct, but the word 'he' in the sentence for choosing to activate it reads to the model itself. In this case, the owner of the model gets to choose whether or not to spend the point. The confusion that comes from the pro-MSS side is that it is our MSS model that is the 'he', yet it is in fact not the noun the sentence is directed at.

See what Im saying?

Yeah, I see what you're saying...it's just plain wrong though. You've accepted that the only choice made is whether or not to activate Force. There is no other choice allowed within the actual rules for Force. In the normal course of play the psyker would be in the driver's seat choosing whether or not to activate. However, when the psyker is affected by MSS that choice is removed from the psyker and given to the MSS controller. Should the MSS controller then choose to activate you must follow the activate rules for Force. Which you've already agreed that there is no choice about.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
I said that on Page 1.

 DeathReaper wrote:
the Force Entry specifically allows the Psyker to expend a warp charge. Something the MSS can not do.

It is also the Psyker that needs to take the Psychic test.

Something MSS does not say they have to do, so no force weapons from MSS.

And you were just as wrong then as you are now

The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so. MSS does allow the MSS controller to activate Force.

Yes, the psyker would then need to take the test.

Which is something that the Force rule requires to have happen should the MSS controller choose to activate Force.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.

I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test.
-Yad

No, by no choice I meant that MSS uses any abilities of the weapon. (This is a must, as they use any abilities and drawbacks)

If the model has more than one weapon that is the choice that the MSS model has.

Yad wrote:The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so.

Yea, this is incorrect, re-read Force special rule.

You are incorrect on both counts: The controller of the MSS may 'choose' which abilities and penalties he or she allows to happen if (and only if) there is a choice involved in their activation. (which there is for the Force USR)

And as i've already said in earlier comments, the only choice that the Force USR allows is wether or not to activate it's properties. If unsaved wounds are suffered and the choice is made for any reason to activate the weapon you (the player who brought the psyker) are then required (in an entirely non-optional fashion, i cannot stress this part enough given how frequently there are claims to the contrary) to spend a warp charge (if the psyker has one available) and make a leadership check.

If you succeed at the above? (ie: spending a warp charge and passing a leadership test) your own psyker mind-swirlies him or herself as a result of their unfortunate run-in with necron technology.

I agree with Yad on the part that MSS trumps Controlling Player vs Opposing Player, but only up to the weapon choice part. MSS gives Necrons the choice to all those Special rules and the like and normally those Special rules are just 'on', much like a Singing Spear from the Eldar; Or Gorechild from Kharn in the CSM. In this case though, this Special rule requires another choice to be made and MSS does not cover "If those Special rules have choices, you decide in those too".

Initiative: Necron player
Strength: Necron player
Weapon: Necron player
Special rules: Necron player
Choices within Special rules: Owning player


Again, MSS trumps the Controlling Player vs Opposing Player up to that last part. Due in part to Force's wording, another choice is to be made and we dont govern that choice as MSS does not give us permission to do so. Only to the part where we say "Im gona use Force on the weapon" and the owning player chooses to expend the Warp Charge point.

 Neorealist wrote:
You are incorrect on both counts: The controller of the MSS may 'choose' which abilities and penalties he or she allows to happen if (and only if) there is a choice involved in their activation. (which there is for the Force USR)

That is not true, as MSS ONLY "benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice)..."

The parenthesis is referring to his close combat weapons.

There are three nouns in the MSS rules-text you quoted, not just one. There is no reason to believe that "...The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice..." refers to the choice (if any) of which close combat weapons to use, any more or less than the choice of which optional abilities to use, or the choice of which optional penalties to use for that matter.

Do you have any compelling rules documentation that indicates the only choice the MSSs' controller can make is which close combat weapon to use? As the above rules-text does not bear out your contention.

 Neorealist wrote:
There are three nouns in the MSS rules-text you quoted, not just one. There is no reason to believe that "...The controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice..." refers to the choice (if any) of which close combat weapons to use, any more or less than the choice of which optional abilities to use, or the choice of which optional penalties to use for that matter.

Do you have any compelling rules documentation that indicates the only choice the MSSs' controller can make is which close combat weapon you use? As the above rules-text does not bear out your contention.

Completely correct Neo. Again though, its in this sentence that permission is not granted to govern choices that are brought on -by- the rules you have selected to use. Ive outlined what that sentence covers above. Also, you must use the sentence in its full context in this situation to get a correct RAW approach. Using half a sentence can jeopardize your position in the debate.

Hehe i'm sure i've quoted the relevent rules for MSS, Force, etc, enough times now; i don't intend on retyping them each and every time i post something. I'd like to address your other comments though:


1) You seem to agree that the Force property of the weapon is activated by MSS. (either by virtue of the Necron player deciding to do so, or failing that as a default part of the "...benefits from any abilities..." part of the rules-text for MSS. The reason the activation occurs is not relevant to my point, just that it does for a rules-valid reason.)

2) Activating the Force property of the weapon requires that a warp charge be spent and a leadership check be made on behalf of the psyker manifesting the ability. The only 'choice' in the force USR that i've found is one at the beginning, which is a choice between activating the force weapon, or 'not' activating the force weapon.

3) If MSS can and does 'activate' the force ability of a given close combat weapon, and activating a force weapon 'requires' a couple of things as listed in step 2, on what grounds do you still feel it'd be the Psykers' Owners' choice wether or not to follow the rules for the Force USR?

Because in the USR it states plainly that :

Pg 37 BRB wrote:If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test.

This phrase creates another choice within the rule itself and MSS does not allow us to govern this second choice. Mind you you can choose not to use the USR Force, and you can also Choose not to expend a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test as this USR calls out for.


MSS as its written gives us control over only one of these choices.