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The choice to activate the force weapon or not does occur after an unsaved wound is inflicted, sure.

However the Force USR does not in and of itself create an 'extra' optional choice to activate the Force property of the weapon after it has already been activated by the MSS, nor an optional choice to spend a warp charge, and most certainly not an optional choice to make a leadership check as you seem to be indicating.

That ship has sailed by virtue of the 'decision' to activate the force weapon in the first place; as such that choice (the only choice the Force USR calls for) has already been made and the rest of the Force USR is mandatory.

Lets take this rule out of 40k context for a second and restate it.

"If a street magician dressed like a depressed clown wears out his old shoes, he can immediately choose to buy new shoes by going to the store and paying for them."

The choice Morbo the depressed clown magician is making in the above is whether or not to buy new shoes. The choice is not whether or not he wants to go to the store or to pay for them. Those are the costs and procedures of buying new shoes.

The same is true of the force rule. The psyker gets to choose to activate or not to activate. The warp charge expenditure and the leadership test are just part of doing business. There is no second choice, just the one. It's plain English if you want to debate grammar and reading comprehension I'm sure your English teachers will take you to task.

The real question is whether the bugs in his head can force a psyker to use the force (I love me some puns). Now the force rule is an ability of the weapon. After all it is listed under the weapon's profile and you don't see psykers using the ability with mundane pieces of metal. The MSS rules states the blows struck benefit from the abilities of the weapon and Force just happens to be an ability of the weapon.

Also an interesting note, the necron FAQ implies that the affected model is not under the owning player's control while suffering the effects of MSS. "...the victim returns to the owning player's control..." would mean that the owning player doesn't get to make any choices for the victim of MSS since the owning player does not have control of it.

The MSS really needs a big boost so I can see why people here are fighting for even more brokeness *oh the ironi*...

Sure it's GW and arguably Matt Ward who are writing the stuff really bad and sure people wanna take advantage of that but come on.. There's just nothing to gain from this discussion before an update to the faq's are presented, that is much needed in many other ways too. And in all honesty do you really believe that Necrons are in need of benefiting from grey area rulings when they are in the state they are in?

This isn't a gray area ruling. Granted, the poll is 50-50, which may be due to people still thinking with 5th in mind. The rules in 6th clearly side with MSS activating force weapons.

The only "counter argument" is that there is a choice to spend a warp charge, which is completely invalid as such choice is never described/permitted anywhere in the BRB. The only choice ever given is the activation or not of an ability which the MSS has every right to make.

copper.talos wrote:
This isn't a gray area ruling. Granted, the poll is 50-50, which may be due to people still thinking with 5th in mind. The rules in 6th clearly side with MSS activating force weapons.

The only "counter argument" is that there is a choice to spend a warp charge, which is completely invalid as such choice is never described/permitted anywhere in the BRB. The only choice ever given is the activation or not of an ability which the MSS has every right to make.

That is your interpretation my friend, obviously there are as many against that interpretation as for it so it could with no problem be explained as a grey area.

I would like to adress the fact that in the Necron faq it does not state anything about being given the opportunity to activate anything, just using the abilities of the weapon. Without activating the force weapons do not cause instant death but have other abilities that are available in the attack against himeself or the unit he's in using the MSS.

So the big question is, which gw has failed to adress, if you should interprete it as you are able to use passive abilities of the weapon or if you also can activate special rules of the weapon. I can see why people see it both ways and it's because of that I asked if MSS was in need of a boost and if necrons as a team was in need of more autowinning stuff since this is a grey area.

MSS has the explicit permission to activate weapon abilities. "Force" in 6th edition is defined as such.

copper.talos wrote:
MSS has the explicit permission to activate weapon abilities. "Force" in 6th edition is defined as such.

The most eyebrown raising thing about your statement is that the stuff you adress as abilities are in fact adressed as "special rules" in the 6th edition rulebook. And to be honest, the faq doesn't say anything about MSS having the explicit permission to ACTIVATE weapon abilities.

You can't add your own words to the text but have to read it as it is.

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.

I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test.
-Yad

No, by no choice I meant that MSS uses any abilities of the weapon. (This is a must, as they use any abilities and drawbacks)

If the model has more than one weapon that is the choice that the MSS model has.

Let's see if we agree on this. If the affected model has one weapon then MSS requires that that weapon, and all its abilities be used by the affected model against its own unit. If the affected model has more than one weapon, then MSS requires the MSS controller to choose which weapon, and all of it abilities, is used by the affected model against its own unit. I'm fine with that, its how the MSS rule works...no debate there from me.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so.

Yea, this is incorrect, re-read Force special rule.

Whoops, here is where you're wrong. Take a look at the Force USR. See that bit about how the psyker can choose to ACTIVATE Force by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test? Do you see any other language in the rule that allows any other type of choice?

The choice is about whether or not the psyker wants to activate the Force USR. This choice can only be made given two pre-conditions (also spelled out in the Force USR)

1.) One or more unsaved wounds has been caused by the weapon with the Force USR
2.) The bearer of the weapon with the Force USR is a psyker.

Once those pre-conditions are met the psyker can announce his intent to use the Force USR. This choice then requires the psyker to spend a charge and take a psychic test. It's plain as day in the RAW. I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusions you are.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.

I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test.
-Yad

No, by no choice I meant that MSS uses any abilities of the weapon. (This is a must, as they use any abilities and drawbacks)

If the model has more than one weapon that is the choice that the MSS model has.

Let's see if we agree on this. If the affected model has one weapon then MSS requires that that weapon, and all its abilities be used by the affected model against its own unit. If the affected model has more than one weapon, then MSS requires the MSS controller to choose which weapon, and all of it abilities, is used by the affected model against its own unit. I'm fine with that, its how the MSS rule works...no debate there from me.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so.

Yea, this is incorrect, re-read Force special rule.

Whoops, here is where you're wrong. Take a look at the Force USR. See that bit about how the psyker can choose to ACTIVATE Force by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test? Do you see any other language in the rule that allows any other type of choice?

The choice is about whether or not the psyker wants to activate the Force USR. This choice can only be made given two pre-conditions (also spelled out in the Force USR)

1.) One or more unsaved wounds has been caused by the weapon with the Force USR
2.) The bearer of the weapon with the Force USR is a psyker.

Once those pre-conditions are met the psyker can announce his intent to use the Force USR. This choice then requires the psyker to spend a charge and take a psychic test. It's plain as day in the RAW. I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusions you are.

-Yad

I have a hard time seeing the way you are arguing. The necron player is not in complete control of the mind shackled model. It just makes that model inflict d3 hits and so on. If there's a choice about which weapon to choose the necron player would choose. I don't see why that line is there if it would be interpreted like you do, that you have control over the model. Therefore I really don't see why you believe that you can make a decision that isn't yours to make about the model.

If the faq would have stated, the owner of the model with the MSS is in complete control of the model then the ownership would shift temporarely and I would have given you credit for your statement. The strongest point in your case and argument is the fluff text, but I really would choose to read the actual rulings to be able to tell what can be done and what can't.

 Stoff3 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
MSS has the explicit permission to activate weapon abilities. "Force" in 6th edition is defined as such.

The most eyebrown raising thing about your statement is that the stuff you adress as abilities are in fact adressed as "special rules" in the 6th edition rulebook. And to be honest, the faq doesn't say anything about MSS having the explicit permission to ACTIVATE weapon abilities.

Activate/invoke/use...they're all interchangeable. Force doesn't say, "the psyker can choose to manifest it by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test." By your logic then you ought to agree that Force is not a psychic power? Personally, I don't think it is, but for different reasons

 Stoff3 wrote:
You can't add your own words to the text but have to read it as it is.

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.

Instant Death has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Why do you think this is relevant? Is this an attempt at constructing a straw man?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.

I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test.
-Yad

No, by no choice I meant that MSS uses any abilities of the weapon. (This is a must, as they use any abilities and drawbacks)

If the model has more than one weapon that is the choice that the MSS model has.

Let's see if we agree on this. If the affected model has one weapon then MSS requires that that weapon, and all its abilities be used by the affected model against its own unit. If the affected model has more than one weapon, then MSS requires the MSS controller to choose which weapon, and all of it abilities, is used by the affected model against its own unit. I'm fine with that, its how the MSS rule works...no debate there from me.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so.

Yea, this is incorrect, re-read Force special rule.

Whoops, here is where you're wrong. Take a look at the Force USR. See that bit about how the psyker can choose to ACTIVATE Force by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test? Do you see any other language in the rule that allows any other type of choice?

The choice is about whether or not the psyker wants to activate the Force USR. This choice can only be made given two pre-conditions (also spelled out in the Force USR)

1.) One or more unsaved wounds has been caused by the weapon with the Force USR
2.) The bearer of the weapon with the Force USR is a psyker.

Once those pre-conditions are met the psyker can announce his intent to use the Force USR. This choice then requires the psyker to spend a charge and take a psychic test. It's plain as day in the RAW. I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusions you are.

-Yad

I have a hard time seeing the way you are arguing. The necron player is not in complete control of the mind shackled model. It just makes that model inflict d3 hits and so on. If there's a choice about which weapon to choose the necron player would choose. I don't see why that line is there if it would be interpreted like you do, that you have control over the model. Therefore I really don't see why you believe that you can make a decision that isn't yours to make about the model.

If the faq would have stated, the owner of the model with the MSS is in complete control of the model then the ownership would shift temporarely and I would have given you credit for your statement. The strongest point in your case and argument is the fluff text, but I really would choose to read the actual rulings to be able to tell what can be done and what can't.

The Necron player however is in control of the means by which the affected model carries out its close combat attacks. Inflicting D3 attacks is just part of it. You've seemed to have left off the bit out how the MSS controller can take advantage of any ability that the affected model's weapon(s) may have.

Did someone earlier in thread mention that there was language in the rule regarding returning control of the affected model back to the opposing player? Unfortunately I don't have immediate access to my codex or FAQ.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
MSS has the explicit permission to activate weapon abilities. "Force" in 6th edition is defined as such.

The most eyebrown raising thing about your statement is that the stuff you adress as abilities are in fact adressed as "special rules" in the 6th edition rulebook. And to be honest, the faq doesn't say anything about MSS having the explicit permission to ACTIVATE weapon abilities.

Activate/invoke/use...they're all interchangeable. Force doesn't say, "the psyker can choose to manifest it by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test." By your logic then you ought to agree that Force is not a psychic power? Personally, I don't think it is, but for different reasons

 Stoff3 wrote:
You can't add your own words to the text but have to read it as it is.

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.

Instant Death has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Why do you think this is relevant? Is this an attempt at constructing a straw man?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force is a psychic power by virtue of having to take a psychic test as a successful psychic test manifests the psychic power successfully.

MSS makes you use any ability of the weapon. (It is not a choice, you use any abilities and penalties thereof).

The Force Ability allows the wielder a choice. That is all.

I'm assuming by choice you meant a choice about whether spend the warp charge and take a psychic test.
-Yad

No, by no choice I meant that MSS uses any abilities of the weapon. (This is a must, as they use any abilities and drawbacks)

If the model has more than one weapon that is the choice that the MSS model has.

Let's see if we agree on this. If the affected model has one weapon then MSS requires that that weapon, and all its abilities be used by the affected model against its own unit. If the affected model has more than one weapon, then MSS requires the MSS controller to choose which weapon, and all of it abilities, is used by the affected model against its own unit. I'm fine with that, its how the MSS rule works...no debate there from me.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:The Force entry requires (i.e., Forces) the psyker to expend a warp charge when the psyker chooses to activate Force. It doesn't 'allow' the psyker to do so.

Yea, this is incorrect, re-read Force special rule.

Whoops, here is where you're wrong. Take a look at the Force USR. See that bit about how the psyker can choose to ACTIVATE Force by spending a warp charge and taking a psychic test? Do you see any other language in the rule that allows any other type of choice?

The choice is about whether or not the psyker wants to activate the Force USR. This choice can only be made given two pre-conditions (also spelled out in the Force USR)

1.) One or more unsaved wounds has been caused by the weapon with the Force USR
2.) The bearer of the weapon with the Force USR is a psyker.

Once those pre-conditions are met the psyker can announce his intent to use the Force USR. This choice then requires the psyker to spend a charge and take a psychic test. It's plain as day in the RAW. I'm not sure how you're drawing the conclusions you are.

-Yad

I have a hard time seeing the way you are arguing. The necron player is not in complete control of the mind shackled model. It just makes that model inflict d3 hits and so on. If there's a choice about which weapon to choose the necron player would choose. I don't see why that line is there if it would be interpreted like you do, that you have control over the model. Therefore I really don't see why you believe that you can make a decision that isn't yours to make about the model.

If the faq would have stated, the owner of the model with the MSS is in complete control of the model then the ownership would shift temporarely and I would have given you credit for your statement. The strongest point in your case and argument is the fluff text, but I really would choose to read the actual rulings to be able to tell what can be done and what can't.

The Necron player however is in control of the means by which the affected model carries out its close combat attacks. Inflicting D3 attacks is just part of it. You've seemed to have left off the bit out how the MSS controller can take advantage of any ability that the affected model's weapon(s) may have.

Did someone earlier in thread mention that there was language in the rule regarding returning control of the affected model back to the opposing player? Unfortunately I don't have immediate access to my codex or FAQ.

-Yad

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.

When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.

I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.

The wording you are looking for is "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck".

And I suspect that some have never read the MSS rule at all. There is no other to reason to claim that MSS can't use the abilities of the weapon.

 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.

The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.

With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.

GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad

 Tarrasq wrote:
Lets take this rule out of 40k context for a second and restate it.

"If a street magician dressed like a depressed clown wears out his old shoes, he can immediately choose to buy new shoes by going to the store and paying for them."

The choice Morbo the depressed clown magician is making in the above is whether or not to buy new shoes. The choice is not whether or not he wants to go to the store or to pay for them. Those are the costs and procedures of buying new shoes.

The same is true of the force rule. The psyker gets to choose to activate or not to activate. The warp charge expenditure and the leadership test are just part of doing business. There is no second choice, just the one. It's plain English if you want to debate grammar and reading comprehension I'm sure your English teachers will take you to task.

The real question is whether the bugs in his head can force a psyker to use the force (I love me some puns). Now the force rule is an ability of the weapon. After all it is listed under the weapon's profile and you don't see psykers using the ability with mundane pieces of metal. The MSS rules states the blows struck benefit from the abilities of the weapon and Force just happens to be an ability of the weapon.

Also an interesting note, the necron FAQ implies that the affected model is not under the owning player's control while suffering the effects of MSS. "...the victim returns to the owning player's control..." would mean that the owning player doesn't get to make any choices for the victim of MSS since the owning player does not have control of it.

Ok, so Morbo the depressed Clown Magician is sleep walking into the store for new shoes. He goes inside, grabs a pair off the shelf, and takes them to the counter.
He gets to the counter and the cashier rings him up. Now the cashier just stares at him, as being asleep he's in his pajamas and doesn't have his wallet.

I don't think the language of the MSS rule is strong enough to require the psyker to take a psychic test and pay a force charge. Those steps are beyond the D3 hits and weapon abilities.
If you don't get my guys Furious Charge, how is it that you can control his mind enough to make him use a psychic power?

-Matt

copper.talos wrote:
The wording you are looking for is "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck".

And I suspect that some have never read the MSS rule at all. There is no other to reason to claim that MSS can't use the abilities of the weapon.

Sure there are many reasons. The fact that you choose to ignore all of them is just sad.

I would believe that if the model was completely under the necron players control then the rule for MSS would say to. How hard could it be to write something like " the model and all choices are made by the player owning the model equipped with the MSS bla bla bla..." if it was intended that way? Nothing would be up for debate then, but now the rule clearly tells you what things happen and as I said before it does not say anything about forcing psychic tests for special rules. You just claim that it works in a way despite the fact that neither the rule itself or the new faq states that you take total control of the model, you just control what weapons is chosen!
Therefore it is not strange that the rule also states that the "control" is given back so the owning player can choose weapons by himself after that.

Do you believe GW are so stupid (the are stupid sometimes but not that stupid) that they can't even clarify that a model is under total control in a faq?

Just because I can force someone to move (pavaane of slaanesh for an example) does not give me total control of the model since it just states that I can make the model do.

dup post

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.

The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.

With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.

GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad

To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.

I would understand what you're saying when it comes to stuff the weapon does and the wielder can't affect it but this is clearly different.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
Lets take this rule out of 40k context for a second and restate it.

"If a street magician dressed like a depressed clown wears out his old shoes, he can immediately choose to buy new shoes by going to the store and paying for them."

The choice Morbo the depressed clown magician is making in the above is whether or not to buy new shoes. The choice is not whether or not he wants to go to the store or to pay for them. Those are the costs and procedures of buying new shoes.

The same is true of the force rule. The psyker gets to choose to activate or not to activate. The warp charge expenditure and the leadership test are just part of doing business. There is no second choice, just the one. It's plain English if you want to debate grammar and reading comprehension I'm sure your English teachers will take you to task.

The real question is whether the bugs in his head can force a psyker to use the force (I love me some puns). Now the force rule is an ability of the weapon. After all it is listed under the weapon's profile and you don't see psykers using the ability with mundane pieces of metal. The MSS rules states the blows struck benefit from the abilities of the weapon and Force just happens to be an ability of the weapon.

Also an interesting note, the necron FAQ implies that the affected model is not under the owning player's control while suffering the effects of MSS. "...the victim returns to the owning player's control..." would mean that the owning player doesn't get to make any choices for the victim of MSS since the owning player does not have control of it.

Ok, so Morbo the depressed Clown Magician is sleep walking into the store for new shoes. He goes inside, grabs a pair off the shelf, and takes them to the counter.
He gets to the counter and the cashier rings him up. Now the cashier just stares at him, as being asleep he's in his pajamas and doesn't have his wallet.

I don't think the language of the MSS rule is strong enough to require the psyker to take a psychic test and pay a force charge. Those steps are beyond the D3 hits and weapon abilities.
If you don't get my guys Furious Charge, how is it that you can control his mind enough to make him use a psychic power?

-Matt

Because the MSS rule is not actually making the psyker take the test. The Force USR is. Take another gander at the Force rule and you'll see it yourself. The psyker can activate Force by spending a charge and taking a test. This is the only way that Force can be activated. Since MSS allows the Necron player to use the abilities of the affected model's weapon, Force can be used. And by 'used' I mean activated, for how else can you use Force?

-Yad

Yad wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
Lets take this rule out of 40k context for a second and restate it.

"If a street magician dressed like a depressed clown wears out his old shoes, he can immediately choose to buy new shoes by going to the store and paying for them."

The choice Morbo the depressed clown magician is making in the above is whether or not to buy new shoes. The choice is not whether or not he wants to go to the store or to pay for them. Those are the costs and procedures of buying new shoes.

The same is true of the force rule. The psyker gets to choose to activate or not to activate. The warp charge expenditure and the leadership test are just part of doing business. There is no second choice, just the one. It's plain English if you want to debate grammar and reading comprehension I'm sure your English teachers will take you to task.

The real question is whether the bugs in his head can force a psyker to use the force (I love me some puns). Now the force rule is an ability of the weapon. After all it is listed under the weapon's profile and you don't see psykers using the ability with mundane pieces of metal. The MSS rules states the blows struck benefit from the abilities of the weapon and Force just happens to be an ability of the weapon.

Also an interesting note, the necron FAQ implies that the affected model is not under the owning player's control while suffering the effects of MSS. "...the victim returns to the owning player's control..." would mean that the owning player doesn't get to make any choices for the victim of MSS since the owning player does not have control of it.

Ok, so Morbo the depressed Clown Magician is sleep walking into the store for new shoes. He goes inside, grabs a pair off the shelf, and takes them to the counter.
He gets to the counter and the cashier rings him up. Now the cashier just stares at him, as being asleep he's in his pajamas and doesn't have his wallet.

I don't think the language of the MSS rule is strong enough to require the psyker to take a psychic test and pay a force charge. Those steps are beyond the D3 hits and weapon abilities.
If you don't get my guys Furious Charge, how is it that you can control his mind enough to make him use a psychic power?

-Matt

Because the MSS rule is not actually making the psyker take the test. The Force USR is. Take another gander at the Force rule and you'll see it yourself. The psyker can activate Force by spending a charge and taking a test. This is the only way that Force can be activated. Since MSS allows the Necron player to use the abilities of the affected model's weapon, Force can be used. And by 'used' I mean activated, for how else can you use Force?

-Yad

You are wrong. Nothing is MAKING the psyker to take the test, he chooses to do or not to do that himself. And because nothing says that the necron player is in total control of the model you can't do more than the MSS rule itself let you do.

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.

The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.

With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.

GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad

To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.

You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spent and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad

 Stoff3 wrote:
You are wrong. Nothing is MAKING the psyker to take the test, he chooses to do or not to do that himself. And because nothing says that the necron player is in total control of the model you can't do more than the MSS rule itself let you do.

Ignore MSS completely for a minute.

How does Force get activated?

Is it just "I want to activate Force."

or is it "I want to cast the Force psyker power."

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
Lets take this rule out of 40k context for a second and restate it.

"If a street magician dressed like a depressed clown wears out his old shoes, he can immediately choose to buy new shoes by going to the store and paying for them."

The choice Morbo the depressed clown magician is making in the above is whether or not to buy new shoes. The choice is not whether or not he wants to go to the store or to pay for them. Those are the costs and procedures of buying new shoes.

The same is true of the force rule. The psyker gets to choose to activate or not to activate. The warp charge expenditure and the leadership test are just part of doing business. There is no second choice, just the one. It's plain English if you want to debate grammar and reading comprehension I'm sure your English teachers will take you to task.

The real question is whether the bugs in his head can force a psyker to use the force (I love me some puns). Now the force rule is an ability of the weapon. After all it is listed under the weapon's profile and you don't see psykers using the ability with mundane pieces of metal. The MSS rules states the blows struck benefit from the abilities of the weapon and Force just happens to be an ability of the weapon.

Also an interesting note, the necron FAQ implies that the affected model is not under the owning player's control while suffering the effects of MSS. "...the victim returns to the owning player's control..." would mean that the owning player doesn't get to make any choices for the victim of MSS since the owning player does not have control of it.

Ok, so Morbo the depressed Clown Magician is sleep walking into the store for new shoes. He goes inside, grabs a pair off the shelf, and takes them to the counter.
He gets to the counter and the cashier rings him up. Now the cashier just stares at him, as being asleep he's in his pajamas and doesn't have his wallet.

I don't think the language of the MSS rule is strong enough to require the psyker to take a psychic test and pay a force charge. Those steps are beyond the D3 hits and weapon abilities.
If you don't get my guys Furious Charge, how is it that you can control his mind enough to make him use a psychic power?

-Matt

Because the MSS rule is not actually making the psyker take the test. The Force USR is. Take another gander at the Force rule and you'll see it yourself. The psyker can activate Force by spending a charge and taking a test. This is the only way that Force can be activated. Since MSS allows the Necron player to use the abilities of the affected model's weapon, Force can be used. And by 'used' I mean activated, for how else can you use Force?

-Yad

You are wrong. Nothing is MAKING the psyker to take the test, he chooses to do or not to do that himself. And because nothing says that the necron player is in total control of the model you can't do more than the MSS rule itself let you do.

Still missing the mark here. The decision to activate Force necessitates the expenditure of a warp charge and attempt to pass a psychic test. You can't decouple the two.

Putting it another way...If the a model has a weapon that has access to the Force USR scores a number of unsaved wounds what can that model do? He can decide to utilize (activate/invoke/use) the Force rule. When that decision is made the psyker must then spend a charge and take a psychic test.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.

The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.

With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.

GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad

To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.

You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spend and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad

You are mixing the cards. Show me where in the MSS rules that it says that you can make decisions stated in the rule that must be made by the model itself? You are circling around this one and I give you that the MSS can use the abilities that doesn't require the model itself to make a choice (the owner). Does MSS make you a temporary owner of the model? No.

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.

The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.

With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.

GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad

To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.

You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spend and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad

You are mixing the cards. Show me where in the MSS rules that it says that you can make decisions stated in the rule that must be made by the model itself? You are circling around this one and I give you that the MSS can use the abilities that doesn't require the model itself to make a choice (the owner).

The only decision being made here is whether or not to use the Force USR when a weapon having this rule scores a number of unsaved wounds. There is no decision to be made regarding whether or not to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test.

Look in the Force rule. The psyker can choose to activate it with 'it' being the Force USR. That's the only choice provided to the psyker by the Force rule. The choice of whether or not to activate.

The part of the MSS rule you need to read is the bit that allows you to use any ability of the weapon that the affected model strikes with. I don't have my codex with me so I can't give you an exact quote. I'll leave that to the other folks here.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Does MSS make you a temporary owner of the model? No.

See copper.talos' post on this.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.

The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.

With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.

GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad

To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.

You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spend and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad

You are mixing the cards. Show me where in the MSS rules that it says that you can make decisions stated in the rule that must be made by the model itself? You are circling around this one and I give you that the MSS can use the abilities that doesn't require the model itself to make a choice (the owner).

The only decision being made here is whether or not to use the Force USR when a weapon having this rule scores a number of unsaved wounds. There is no decision to be made regarding whether or not to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test.

Look in the Force rule. The psyker can choose to activate it with 'it' being the Force USR. That's the only choice provided to the psyker by the Force rule. The choice of whether or not to activate.

The part of the MSS rule you need to read is the bit that allows you to use any ability of the weapon that the affected model strikes with. I don't have my codex with me so I can't give you an exact quote. I'll leave that to the other folks here.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Does MSS make you a temporary owner of the model? No.

See copper.talos' post on this.

-Yad

Since it isn't the weapon that "auto activates" but the PSYKER who can choose to do or not to do, that isn't a choice being made by the MSS owner, the attacks only benefit from the abilities of the weapon, nothing says that you get to do choices of activating anything. If it would state that the weapon did this you would be correct, now the reality is that the psyker makes to do the choices and the ability itself cannot make the psyker take any decision.

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.

The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.

With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.

GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad

To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.

You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spend and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad

You are mixing the cards. Show me where in the MSS rules that it says that you can make decisions stated in the rule that must be made by the model itself? You are circling around this one and I give you that the MSS can use the abilities that doesn't require the model itself to make a choice (the owner).

The only decision being made here is whether or not to use the Force USR when a weapon having this rule scores a number of unsaved wounds. There is no decision to be made regarding whether or not to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test.

Look in the Force rule. The psyker can choose to activate it with 'it' being the Force USR. That's the only choice provided to the psyker by the Force rule. The choice of whether or not to activate.

The part of the MSS rule you need to read is the bit that allows you to use any ability of the weapon that the affected model strikes with. I don't have my codex with me so I can't give you an exact quote. I'll leave that to the other folks here.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Does MSS make you a temporary owner of the model? No.

See copper.talos' post on this.

-Yad

Since it isn't the weapon that "auto activates" but the PSYKER who can choose to do or not to do, that isn't a choice being made by the MSS owner, the attacks only benefit from the abilities of the weapon, nothing says that you get to do choices of activating anything. If it would state that the weapon did this you would be correct, now the reality is that the psyker makes to do the choices and the ability itself cannot make the psyker take any decision.

This is progress of a sort You're right that it's the psyker that can choose to activate (or not) the Force ability of the weapon. Now you just need to understand that MSS supplants the choice of the psyker on whether or not to activate with that of the MSS controller.

You're still coming up short on the actual rule mechanic of the Force USR though. In the normal course of play, assuming the pre-conditions have been met to use Force, the psyker can choose to activate Force. What happens when the psyker chooses to activate Force? The psyker spends a warp charge and takes a psychic test.

Can you point to any other way to decouple the positive choice to activate Force from the act of spending a charge and taking a psychic test? I seriously doubt you'll find any such rule in the Force USR. Since MSS supplants the psyker's choice in using the Force rule of the weapon, the MSS player can choose to activate it. A positive choice in activating the Force USR makes the bearer spend a charge and take a psychic test. You can't avoid it.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Yad wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:


deleting wall of text

Well first of all the instant death part is a special rule, and could probably by some means be debated for as an activated special rule.

The issue I have with that is that Instant Death is not part of this particular debate. The concern here is how MSS and the Force USR interact. Instant Death is the end result of a successful activation of the Force USR. At no point does MSS have any reason to directly interact with the Instant Death rule. As such it's not germane to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:
When it comes to the controlling part, obviously the model inflicts d3 hits to himself or his unit and the necron player get to choose which weapon the model uses it is in some way not completely under the owning players control and therefore I see nothing strange in the part of the text about returning control. This does not however in any way say that the model was in complete control by the necron player which in the case of your beliefs surely would be stated clearly in the rules section for the MSS. But it is not. And surely nothing in the rule text of MSS states that you also are allowed to use special rules or make the model take more psychic tests.

With the exception of the question I put forth in my last post, I have not advocated that the MSS rule allows for the full control of the affected model. Indeed my arguments have all been in line with the expectation that you are limited to only what the MSS rule allows.

I will quoute

MSS certainly does allow for the Necron player to use the abilities(special rules) of the weapon.

MSS does not make the model take a psychic test. The Force USR makes the model take a psychic test (and spend a warp charge).

 Stoff3 wrote:
I will say as I have said before. I'm not 100% sure myself on how this will be ruled when a new faq arrive, but I most certainly ain't so sure about it as you are since there are flaws in your argument and in the text about MSS.

GW surely writes the rules bad sometimes and it's even more frustrating when they even can't get a faq text right. I must say I hope they will rule it as MSS can't activate Force Weapons since necrons and MSS are imbalanced enough already, but with most other grey area stuff in mind that mostly go to necrons favour I'm sadly not so sure.

GW is more than capable, as we have all witnessed time and time again, of writing bad rules (ambiguous, contradictory, etc.). In my opinion this is not one of those times.

-Yad

To be able to inflict instant death the PSYKER can activate the force weapon, not MSS. For MSS to be able to do that the necron player would need total control (beyond those things stated in the MSS rules) to be able to pull that off. The weapon isn't activating itself, the psyker does that, and nowhere in the MSS rules does it states total control of the model beyond anyting more than what the rules say happens.

You're still missing the forest for the trees. The psyker can choose to activate the Force USR of the weapon. Read the Force rule on how this is done, paying particular attention to the choice being made. Once the psyker decides to activate Force, the Force rule requires the psyker to spend a charge and pass a test. Once the charge is spend and the test is passed, any unsaved wound now inflicts Instant Death.

MSS supplants the psyker's decision to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

How do you reconcile the language the copper cited about "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control, once all blows in that round of combat have been struck"

-Yad

You are mixing the cards. Show me where in the MSS rules that it says that you can make decisions stated in the rule that must be made by the model itself? You are circling around this one and I give you that the MSS can use the abilities that doesn't require the model itself to make a choice (the owner).

The only decision being made here is whether or not to use the Force USR when a weapon having this rule scores a number of unsaved wounds. There is no decision to be made regarding whether or not to spend a warp charge and take a psychic test.

Look in the Force rule. The psyker can choose to activate it with 'it' being the Force USR. That's the only choice provided to the psyker by the Force rule. The choice of whether or not to activate.

The part of the MSS rule you need to read is the bit that allows you to use any ability of the weapon that the affected model strikes with. I don't have my codex with me so I can't give you an exact quote. I'll leave that to the other folks here.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Does MSS make you a temporary owner of the model? No.

See copper.talos' post on this.

-Yad

Since it isn't the weapon that "auto activates" but the PSYKER who can choose to do or not to do, that isn't a choice being made by the MSS owner, the attacks only benefit from the abilities of the weapon, nothing says that you get to do choices of activating anything. If it would state that the weapon did this you would be correct, now the reality is that the psyker makes to do the choices and the ability itself cannot make the psyker take any decision.

This is progress of a sort You're right that it's the psyker that can choose to activate (or not) the Force ability of the weapon. Now you just need to understand that MSS supplants the choice of the psyker on whether or not to activate with that of the MSS controller.

You're still coming up short on the actual rule mechanic of the Force USR though. In the normal course of play, assuming the pre-conditions have been met to use Force, the psyker can choose to activate Force. What happens when the psyker chooses to activate Force? The psyker spends a warp charge and takes a psychic test.

Can you point to any other way to decouple the positive choice to activate Force from the act of spending a charge and taking a psychic test? I seriously doubt you'll find any such rule in the Force USR. Since MSS supplants the psyker's choice in using the Force rule of the weapon, the MSS player can choose to activate it. A positive choice in activating the Force USR makes the bearer spend a charge and take a psychic test. You can't avoid it.

-Yad

Wrong, it is not the MSS owners choice to make since it isn't stated in the MSS rules that you control the model. The only choice however stated in the MSS rules is that you can make is the choice of weapon. Just out of curiousity, if something gives your GK librarian an extra attack with his weapon, does that force you to use the activation and gain instant death? No since the librarian (owner) makes this decision even though the ability exists it is still a CHOICE wich the core rules states is made by the librarian (owner). And nowhere does it in MSS say that you control the model. Ofcourse can I choose not to activate, since I'm the owner even when affected by MSS.

You are making assumptions on things that aren't even in the MSS rules when you make your case.

I will quote from the necron faq: "... and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapons..". It is not the weapon that activates, it is the psyker himself that makes this choice and since the necron player don't control the model, the owner makes that choice. Not especially strange according to the MSS rule text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If gw once again change the MSS text in a new faq we could surely see a change either to clarify the benefits from melee weapons or maybe more text clarifying the total or non total control of the model.

There's no certain way in saying how they will do, but it's probably time to lock the thread since all discussions just go around in circles and we have clarified that there about a 50%-50% in the poll.

What part of " and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapons." did you not understand?

Or you believe "Force" is not an ability of the force weapon?

copper.talos wrote:
What part of " and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapons." did you not understand?

Or you believe "Force" is not an ability of the force weapon?

What part of the "Force" section do you not understand? It is not the weapon that activates, it is a choice of the user and the USER activates or does NOT. Since the user is not under the necron players control but merely restricted to a set of rules your idea of autowin in challenges surely isn't appliable. Surely the necron player could try and claim that it should activate, but since the choice isn't made by him, how then could it activate?

Out of curiosity, do you feel that necrons are a weak team since it obviously is so important for you to find more cheese to fit in to an already stuffed codex?

To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?