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copper.talos wrote:
To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?

Oh dear..

If MSS rules had stated that you do not only benefit from abilities but that you can USE them also then it would be quite clear. The issue here is that you can benefit from a weapons abilities without activating another ability. And since it's specifically stated that the Force can only be activated by a choice made by the owner how are you going to activate it?

It is a huge difference in benefiting and being able to use abilities. It's very clear that MSS doesn't give you permission to USE and activate anything.

We can only speculate in how GW wants this to work, and we'll probably know when next faq comes out (I hope).

Good luck in being able to do this in tournaments, the risk is that you will be very dissapointed.

Actually I never had any problems with it even in 5th.

Anyway since you never answered the question AGAIN, I'll help you. BRB pg 60 Force is an ability of the weapon. No grey area there at all.

With MSS all the WOUNDS caused the force weapon benefit from that ability. That is RAW. And in the Force entry there isn't even a hint of a "choice" in spending that warp charge.

 Stoff3 wrote:


cutting another wall of test

Yad wrote:Since it isn't the weapon that "auto activates" but the PSYKER who can choose to do or not to do, that isn't a choice being made by the MSS owner, the attacks only benefit from the abilities of the weapon, nothing says that you get to do choices of activating anything. If it would state that the weapon did this you would be correct, now the reality is that the psyker makes to do the choices and the ability itself cannot make the psyker take any decision.

This is progress of a sort You're right that it's the psyker that can choose to activate (or not) the Force ability of the weapon. Now you just need to understand that MSS supplants the choice of the psyker on whether or not to activate with that of the MSS controller.

You're still coming up short on the actual rule mechanic of the Force USR though. In the normal course of play, assuming the pre-conditions have been met to use Force, the psyker can choose to activate Force. What happens when the psyker chooses to activate Force? The psyker spends a warp charge and takes a psychic test.

Can you point to any other way to decouple the positive choice to activate Force from the act of spending a charge and taking a psychic test? I seriously doubt you'll find any such rule in the Force USR. Since MSS supplants the psyker's choice in using the Force rule of the weapon, the MSS player can choose to activate it. A positive choice in activating the Force USR makes the bearer spend a charge and take a psychic test. You can't avoid it.

-Yad

Wrong, it is not the MSS owners choice to make since it isn't stated in the MSS rules that you control the model. The only choice however stated in the MSS rules is that you can make is the choice of weapon.

And any abilities and penalties that weapon may have. You seem to be consistently neglecting that part of the MSS rules and what it actually means.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Just out of curiousity, if something gives your GK librarian an extra attack with his weapon, does that force you to use the activation and gain instant death?

This strikes me as a nonsensical example. Force dictates the conditions that must exist in order for the bearer of the weapon with the Force USR to get to the point where he can decide whether or not to use it (Force). Getting an extra attack isn't one of them, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

 Stoff3 wrote:
No since the librarian (owner) makes this decision even though the ability exists it is still a CHOICE wich the core rules states is made by the librarian (owner). And nowhere does it in MSS say that you control the model. Ofcourse can I choose not to activate, since I'm the owner even when affected by MSS.

In the normal course of play, the psyker (doesn't matter what type of psyker) can choose to activate Force if, per the actual rules of the Force USR, he has scored one or more unsaved wounds. If the psyker chooses to use the Force USR he must then activate it by expending a charge and taking a psychic test.

The MSS rules are very clear in stating what they can do. The MSS rules make the MSS player use any ability (and penalty) of the weapon(s) that the affected model has. The MSS player chooses to have the affected model strike with a weapon that has the Force USR. The MSS player has permission to utilize any ability that the weapon has on behalf of the bearer. Force is an ability of the weapon. That ability can be used, per the MSS rules. The only way to use the ability is to spend a charge and take a test.

 Stoff3 wrote:
You are making assumptions on things that aren't even in the MSS rules when you make your case.

I will quote from the necron faq: "... and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapons..". It is not the weapon that activates, it is the psyker himself that makes this choice and since the necron player don't control the model, the owner makes that choice. Not especially strange according to the MSS rule text.

So close

Yes, the weapon doesn't activate itself. It is normally the psyker that chooses whether or not to use Force. MSS supplants this choice via the bit you quoted. You've got all the dots, you just need to connect them

-Yad

 Stoff3 wrote:

If MSS rules had stated that you do not only benefit from abilities but that you can USE them also then it would be quite clear. The issue here is that you can benefit from a weapons abilities without activating another ability. And since it's specifically stated that the Force can only be activated by a choice made by the owner how are you going to activate it?

It is a huge difference in benefiting and being able to use abilities. It's very clear that MSS doesn't give you permission to USE and activate anything.

But it does (emphasis added).

These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.

If there is a choice of abilities, penalties, and/or Melee weapons, the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses. That is permission to "USE and activate" the ability, penalty, and/or Melee weapon.

 Stoff3 wrote:

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.

Are you saying that MSS cannot cause ID? That if I MSS'd a space marine captain with a thunderhammer, that he can't ID himself with it because ID is not an ability of his weapon?

As Yad pointed out, ID is an effect of the weapon, not an ability. You cannot make a regular power weapon ID a model. Then again you cannot make a power fist or an activated force weapon NOT ID a T4 model. ID is really irrelevant to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do you feel that necrons are a weak team since it obviously is so important for you to find more cheese to fit in to an already stuffed codex?

That should not be the basisof a RAW discussion - whether you think it is fair or not just because you feel 1 army is so strong (or weak).

The people debating over the rules here are not doing so because they feel an army needs a buff or not. They are doing so because they believe this is what they think the rule is supposed to do RAW-wise.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:
You are wrong. Nothing is MAKING the psyker to take the test, he chooses to do or not to do that himself. And because nothing says that the necron player is in total control of the model you can't do more than the MSS rule itself let you do.

Ignore MSS completely for a minute.

How does Force get activated?

Is it just "I want to activate Force."

or is it "I want to cast the Force psyker power."

 jy2 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.

Are you saying that MSS cannot cause ID? That if I MSS'd a space marine captain with a thunderhammer, that he can't ID himself with it because ID is not an ability of his weapon?

As Yad pointed out, ID is an effect of the weapon, not an ability. You cannot make a regular power weapon ID a model. Then again you cannot make a power fist or an activated force weapon NOT ID a T4 model. ID is really irrelevant to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do you feel that necrons are a weak team since it obviously is so important for you to find more cheese to fit in to an already stuffed codex?

That should not be the basisof a RAW discussion - whether you think it is fair or not just because you feel 1 army is so strong (or weak).

The people debating over the rules here are not doing so because they feel an army needs a buff or not. They are doing so because they believe this is what they think the rule is supposed to do RAW-wise.

@Stoff3:
Correct me if I'm wrong Stoff3, but I suspect that you're trying to assert that MSS only allows access to the passive abilities of the weapon(s) carried by the affected model. Which is not what the MSS rule actually says. It allows any ability of the weapon to be used. Force is such an ability.

-Yad

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:
You are wrong. Nothing is MAKING the psyker to take the test, he chooses to do or not to do that himself. And because nothing says that the necron player is in total control of the model you can't do more than the MSS rule itself let you do.

Ignore MSS completely for a minute.

How does Force get activated?

Is it just "I want to activate Force."

or is it "I want to cast the Force psyker power."

It is the option that I have highlighted for you.

Force is NOT a Psyker power. It is a USR that belongs to a weapon. All Psyker powers are found on the tables and on the cards. If you look, you will be unable to find Force amongst them.

Having established that it is an ability of the weapon, then MSS gives the Necron permission to activate that ability.

The Force USR forces the weapon's wielder to expend a warp charge and take a Perils test. No permission is needed, as this is not optional; it is a requirement of the Force USR. They are married.

Therefore, the Necron can activate the Force weapon via MSS.

In the 6th Ed. rulebook, this is cut and dry. I don't understand how anyone can debate this anymore. I keep reading the same "permissive ruleset and you don't have permission to take a psyker test", except this instance goes beyond permission: it is a requirement of the Force ability -which is a weapon ability- and thus can be activated via MSS.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:I don't think the language of the MSS rule is strong enough to require the psyker to take a psychic test and pay a force charge. Those steps are beyond the D3 hits and weapon abilities.
If you don't get my guys Furious Charge, how is it that you can control his mind enough to make him use a psychic power?

-Matt

Matt; Furious Charge is not an ability of the weapon; it is an ability of the model. MSS only gives the Necron permission to use the abilities of the weapon.

"Force" is an ability of the weapon; as it is listed in the weapon's profile, and not on the psyker tables.

So that guarantees that the Necron is allowed to use the Force ability from the weapon.

And when the Force ability is activated, no permission is required for the next steps, as the warp charge and test are required to be taken once the decision to activate the Force ability has been made. Hence, that strange clown magician analogy.

Yad wrote: how else does one use Force?

Generally by waving my arms around like some kind of Jedi.

Happyjew wrote:

Yad wrote: how else does one use Force?

Generally by waving my arms around like some kind of Jedi.

this made me lol

-Yad

Happyjew wrote:

Yad wrote: how else does one use Force?

Generally by waving my arms around like some kind of Jedi.

Duh. That's "The Force" not "Force". Keep up man.

Yad wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

Instant Death is not an ability but a special rule. Since no special rules are mentioned in the necron faq I believe MSS will not be able to do like you wish for. But none of this is going to be perfectly clear before gw releases proper faq's.

I am not sure what you are trying to get at here.

Are you saying that MSS cannot cause ID? That if I MSS'd a space marine captain with a thunderhammer, that he can't ID himself with it because ID is not an ability of his weapon?

As Yad pointed out, ID is an effect of the weapon, not an ability. You cannot make a regular power weapon ID a model. Then again you cannot make a power fist or an activated force weapon NOT ID a T4 model. ID is really irrelevant to this discussion.

 Stoff3 wrote:

Out of curiosity, do you feel that necrons are a weak team since it obviously is so important for you to find more cheese to fit in to an already stuffed codex?

That should not be the basisof a RAW discussion - whether you think it is fair or not just because you feel 1 army is so strong (or weak).

The people debating over the rules here are not doing so because they feel an army needs a buff or not. They are doing so because they believe this is what they think the rule is supposed to do RAW-wise.

@Stoff3:
Correct me if I'm wrong Stoff3, but I suspect that you're trying to assert that MSS only allows access to the passive abilities of the weapon(s) carried by the affected model. Which is not what the MSS rule actually says. It allows any ability of the weapon to be used. Force is such an ability.

-Yad

That is incorrect. It does most certainly not allow any ability to be used in that case it would have stated just that. Benefit and use (activate) is not the same and until any corrections or clarifications arrive my hones opinion is that it's NOT that clear that some here believe. And as I have written about 100 times here soon isnt benefiting from abilites the same as controlling choices made my the model or owner.

Allow me folks to go over this here. In complete entirety.

Page 81 Necron Codex, second paragraph for Mindshackle Scarabs replaced with 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.

Ok, so we have control over this model for D3 attacks; hits with the controlled models Strength; our choice of weaponry should such choices exist; and lastly, choice of Special rules and penalties that apply to the weapon we selected. Sounds pretty damn sweet.

To demonstrate what Im talking about when I say that there is a second choice within the Special rule for Force, Ill be going through a few different Special rules that are from the BRB and others from various Codex'. First up will be the big one, Force as its the relevant topic.

Pg 37 BRB wrote:
Force
If a Psyker inflicts on or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons. Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or models that do not have a Wounds characteristic.

Ok, as this rule is written, we can clearly see that their is a 'choice' within this rule. Its determined by 'he' and that refers to the model in question. The reason that GW worked in this rhetorical statement is to create an On/Off switch within the rule. Does it seem Rhetorical? Yes, it does. Why? Cause if Im claiming to use it, Im pretty darn sure Im about to use it, silly rule. Though, when you look at it from this On/Off perspective, it begins to make sense. Take the choice away from the sentence. Thats right, read that rule without the Adverb and the extra words that put it into the sentence. Do you see that On/Off switch now? No. Now it should read something like this:

Force
If a Psyker inflicts on or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force weapons. Force weapons have no additional effect against vehicles or models that do not have a Wounds characteristic.

No On/Off switch to be had, and now its a Special rule that is merely 'always on' as now there is no choice to be made. At the first unsaved wound, spend a Warp Charge point (if the model has one) and take a Psychic test. Pass and profit. That wording fits with what MSS gives us permission to do.

Im going to use another Special rule from the BRB to demonstrate another rule without an On/Off switch but builds grounds for choice to use the Special rule with context to models. Skyfire.

Pg 42 BRB wrote:
Skyfire
A model with this special rule, or that is firing a weapon with this special rule, fires using its normal Ballistic Skill when shooting at Flyers, Flying Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers. unless it also has the Interceptor special rule, it can only fire snap shots against other targets.

Right so as this Special rule reads out that any model or weapon with it fires with a normal Ballistic Skill on the units outlined above. No On/Off to be read here right? You are correct. Take that into context with Fliers though and you have a model with this Special rule at all times, but must choose to use it at the start of the shooting phase. This builds the grounds that you can elect to use Special rules, but if the rule reads to allow another choice within it, you must choose (once again) to continue with the rule. On the flip side though, a non-flier model with this Special rule does not get to decide which means it will fall into the next category, 'always on'.

One more rule here that doesnt have context behind it, but like Skyfire, is an 'always on' rule. Fleshbane.

Pg 35 BRB wrote:
Fleshbane
If a model has this special rule, or is attacking with a Melee weapon that has this special rule, they always wound on a 2+ in close combat.

Similarly, if a model make a shooting attack with a weapon that has this special rule, they always wound on a 2+.

In either case, this special rule has no effect against vehicles.

This rule attached to a weapon is an 'always on' rule. No choice is written within it. In this instance, the MSS model does not get to choose as the rule has chosen for us.

The biggest problem folks are going to have is that MSS was written in the 5th edition environment where there were no On/Off switches within Special rules. The rule works with the notion that if the rule is attached to a weapon, it is always on; Working so the MSS does not have to make any other choices outside of choosing weapons and their Special rules. Though as the rules for Force demonstrate, it has a worded On/Off switch so your not using it on Every.Unsaved.Wound.

 azazel the cat wrote:
Force is NOT a Psyker power. It is a USR that belongs to a weapon. All Psyker powers are found on the tables and on the cards. If you look, you will be unable to find Force amongst them.

Except it is a Psychic power, albeit one granted by a weapons USR. Remember it allows a psychic test, and as I have pointed out before, if successful the power is manifested.

Tye_Informer wrote:

These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.

If there is a choice of abilities, penalties, and/or Melee weapons, the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses. That is permission to "USE and activate" the ability, penalty, and/or Melee weapon.

Yea, you have the incorrect reading of that sentence.

The "if there is a choice" refers to "the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which," which in turn refers to "Close Combat Weapons"

It does not refer to "any abilities and penalties" because if it did you would be able to choose which penalties that applied.

copper.talos wrote:
To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?

It is an ability of the weapon, one that does nothing unless the Psyker chooses to expend a warp charge to activate the power.

Force only allows the Psyker a choice, and on choosing to spend the warp charge it has additional effects, without the Psyker choosing to spend that warp charge, Force does nothing.

Circular argument is circular. The psyker never gets to choose to spend that warp charge. The only choice that is described in the rules is the activation of the force weapon.

copper.talos wrote:
Circular argument is circular. The psyker never gets to choose to spend that warp charge. The only choice that is described in the rules is the activation of the force weapon.

The Force USR Disagrees with you.

 DeathReaper wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?

It is an ability of the weapon, one that does nothing unless the Psyker chooses to expend a warp charge to activate the power.

Close. You're right that it's an ability of the weapon. But the choice the psyker is making is not about whether or not spend a charge and take a psychic test, it's about whether or not to activate it. Says so right in the Force USR. "...can choose to activate it by spending a warp charge..." What is he choosing? To activate or not. How does he activate? By spending a charge and taking a test.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force only allows the Psyker a choice, and on choosing to spend the warp charge it has additional effects, without the Psyker choosing to spend that warp charge, Force does nothing.

MSS supplants the psyker's chance to choose to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

-Yad

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?

It is an ability of the weapon, one that does nothing unless the Psyker chooses to expend a warp charge to activate the power.

Close. You're right that it's an ability of the weapon. But the choice the psyker is making is not about whether or not spend a charge and take a psychic test, it's about whether or not to activate it. Says so right in the Force USR. "...can choose to activate it by spending a warp charge..." What is he choosing? To activate or not. How does he activate? By spending a charge and taking a test.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force only allows the Psyker a choice, and on choosing to spend the warp charge it has additional effects, without the Psyker choosing to spend that warp charge, Force does nothing.

MSS supplants the psyker's chance to choose to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

-Yad

MSS does not say that.

The only choice MSS gives is which Close Combat weapon to use, if there is a choice between CCW's

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
To make it clear, is Force an ability of the weapon or not?

It is an ability of the weapon, one that does nothing unless the Psyker chooses to expend a warp charge to activate the power.

Close. You're right that it's an ability of the weapon. But the choice the psyker is making is not about whether or not spend a charge and take a psychic test, it's about whether or not to activate it. Says so right in the Force USR. "...can choose to activate it by spending a warp charge..." What is he choosing? To activate or not. How does he activate? By spending a charge and taking a test.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Force only allows the Psyker a choice, and on choosing to spend the warp charge it has additional effects, without the Psyker choosing to spend that warp charge, Force does nothing.

MSS supplants the psyker's chance to choose to activate Force with that of the MSS controller.

-Yad

MSS does not say that.

The only choice MSS gives is which Close Combat weapon to use, if there is a choice between CCW's

and gives you the benefit of any ability that weapon has. You've agreed that Force is an ability of the weapon thus eligible to be used when the bearer of the Force Weapon is affected by MSS. You seem to introducing a constraint to the usage of 'benefit' in the MSS rule. Limiting it to passive effects only. This is a constraint that I certainly don't agree with. When you gain the benefit of any ability that the weapon has you gain full access to those abilities.

-Yad

Anyone wish to address the mechanic of the On/Off switch that the rule RAW has built into it? Anyone? Ill take either side at this point.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tye_Informer wrote:

These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.

If there is a choice of abilities, penalties, and/or Melee weapons, the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses. That is permission to "USE and activate" the ability, penalty, and/or Melee weapon.

Yea, you have the incorrect reading of that sentence.

The "if there is a choice" refers to "the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which," which in turn refers to "Close Combat Weapons"

It does not refer to "any abilities and penalties" because if it did you would be able to choose which penalties that applied.

If there are choices about the penalties, then you could choose which penalties applied, just like abilities. If there are not choices, then you can't choose. That's what the sentence says. (Or at least, that's how I read it)

The way I see it, the choice part of the sentence applies to everything after the comma ", and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons". You seem to be saying that the choice is only the last item in the list. What English Language rule limits it to the last item? How about this sentence "The chair comes in choices on color, padding, and heights (chosen by the customer)". Does that say that chair height is the only thing the customer gets a choice on, and color and padding are either random or selected by someone other than the customer?

I think that the best comparison would be looking at a poisioned weapon.

A poisoned weapon wounds on a set value. This is an ability of the weapon which MSS would be in control. The model has no control over this ability.

A force weapon has the ability to inflict ID. This is an ability of the weapon that MSS would be in control. However to activate the ID ability of the force weapon is an ability of the model equipped with the force weapon, ie, expending a warp charge. That is not covered by the rules for MSS.

Hence, while the MSS has the ability to inflict ID, it does not have the means.

For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?

Happyjew wrote:
For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?

You can't and I haven't

I don't think there are any penalties you can elect to not take. I think penalties are passive effects of the weapon that you have no choice but to accept (i.e., the cost of using the weapon).

-Yad

Yad wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?

You can't and I haven't

-Yad

So if you cannot choose to use any abilities, how are you choosing to invoke the Force special rule? I'm not arguing for one side or the other anymore, I've dropped out of that. This is pure curiosity on peoples thoughts.

Happyjew wrote:

Yad wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?

You can't and I haven't

-Yad

So if you cannot choose to use any abilities, how are you choosing to invoke the Force special rule? I'm not arguing for one side or the other anymore, I've dropped out of that. This is pure curiosity on peoples thoughts.

Your specific question was about choosing whether or not to use a penalty. You've taken my answer an applied it too broadly.

-Yad

That's because the part of the rule regarding abilities of the weapons is a single clause including the penalties of the weapons. You get the abilities and penalties of the weapon. If you are able to choose whether or not to use an ability of the weapon, why can you not make the same choice regarding penalties?

I'll elaborate. Passive effects, be they penalties or benefits, cannot be directly invoked by the bearer. Their effects automatically apply.

MSS provides access to any ability, be it a benefit or a penalty. The MSS controller has no say with regards to passive abilities.

Since MSS provides access to the Force USR, you must follow the rules for Force.

-Yad

OK, now that I've read the updated rule in the FAQ (should have looked there first, oh well) I notice that the wording has been changed to "(the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice)".
So you choose the weapon and it benefits from any abilities/penalties from the weapon. Now I'm really confused as to where you are getting to choose non-passive abilities.

Happyjew wrote:
OK, now that I've read the updated rule in the FAQ (should have looked there first, oh well) I notice that the wording has been changed to "(the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice)".
So you choose the weapon and it benefits from any abilities/penalties from the weapon. Now I'm really confused as to where you are getting to choose non-passive abilities.

I never thought to check the FAQ, but the sentence makes sense to me.

and I am also confused as to where they are getting to choose non-passive abilities. It is an assertation they are making without rules support.

Yad wrote:
Since MSS provides access to the Force USR, you must follow the rules for Force.

-Yad

The rules for Force allow the Psyker to make a choice.

so choosing not to spend the warp charge is within the Force rules.