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I cannot speak to for others, but 'I' am getting permission to use non-passive weapon abilities from the rules-text which states the hits made "...benefit from any abilities and penalties from his melee weapons..." as i've yet to find nor seen anyone else quote a way to 'benefit' from a property that isn't activated.

You havent produced a quote that lets you force an enemy psyker to spend a warpcharge either. Xzerios pointed it out several times, you chose to ignore it. You interpret MSS as granting you control of a model yet RAW does not explicitly grant this to you.

RAI is not RAW.

Burden of proof isnt on those of us saying it doesnt work. It relies on your side to state a convincing case. Thus far from my perspective and judging from about half the folks who voted, you have yet to do so.

It will need an FAQ and GW will have to decide for this matter to be put to rest. As simple as that.

Edit: The "you" in the context of this post refers to the pro MSS side of the argument in this discussion.

That one is simple and the answer to your question has been stated by myself and other 'pro-MSS' advocates several times:

1) MSS benefits from the Force property of the weapon
2) The only way to 'benefit' from the Force property of the weapon is to activate it.
3) Activating the Force property of the weapon requires spending a warp charge and taking a leadership check. It is not optional and you may not 'choose' which of the latter two to fulfill if the choice has already been made to activate the weapon.

The reason I say this is because the Force USR only offers one choice: wether or not to activate the weapon. The full rules-text for the Force USR has already in part and in whole been stated multiple times in this thread, so i'll not repeat it.

'Your' in this case referring to Lt.Soundwave specifically, though others have brought forth your exact argument prior to this point.

See that is where you are incorrect.

Activating the Force property of the weapon is done by the Psyker by choosing to spend a warp charge and take a Psychic test.

the MSS can not activate the weapon, as it can not spend a warp charge for the Psyker. (Unless you have a rules quote that says otherwise).

2) The only way to 'benefit' from the Force property of the weapon is to activate it.

RAI.

When the Pro side can answer the Rhetorical statement for 'he may choose' in the rule, we can continue.

Xzerios wrote:When the Pro side can answer the Rhetorical statement for 'he may choose' in the rule, we can continue.

yakface wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the Weapon has the force ability, but the Psyker still must spend the warp charge.

Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the force weapon it is an ability of the psyker himself.

You keep saying that, but it doesn't match what the actual rules for 'force' say.

The full text for 'force' are:

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Pyschic test (see page 67)..."


So again, the special rule that the weapon has specifically grants the model the ability to activate the weapon by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test. This is explicitly granted by the weapon's own special rule.

Any distinction you have made that activating the weapon via a psychic test is somehow separate from the weapon is purely imagination, because as I have pointed out numerous times, the weapon's own rules dictate how this process is done.

"Im going to use your Force Weapon Special rule."
"Im going to remove a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test."


You have been given permission by MSS to do only one of these.

kirsanth, that does not refute what I said.

There is no allowance for the MSS to activate the Force USR. They can use the Force USR, and in fact have to use the Force USR from what MSS says.

However all the Force USR does is grant the attacking Psyker a choice on weather or not they activate the power by expending a Warp Charge point, and taking a psychic test.

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Pyschic test (see page 67)..

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Pyschic test (see page 67)..

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Pyschic test (see page 67)..

No where at ANY point does this state the weapon may choose to do so or that the ability of the force weapon results in the psyker having to do so automatically.

RAW.

Maybe its that the pysker making the choice not the weapon is the problem people are having?

I see it (force) as a special rule that requires addtionial requirements to be meet. Do you have permission to require those condtions to be meet? Do you have access to the requirements to be fulfilled independently? (Or on your own) Opposing players cannot make choices for models that are not thiers, they can use certain things, as the MSS rule reads to me, but thats about it. They cannot make choices beyond the weapon, they have no permission to require the warp charge to be used, as the psyker can choose, not the weapon can choose.

 DeathReaper wrote:
kirsanth, that does not refute what I said.

It does refute it, whether you agree with it is another thing entirely.

I simply posted that because it HAS been answered. Repeatedly.

That said, I am not 100% on either side of this debate, simply annoyed at people requesting demanding responses to something that has already been responded to.

Xzerios wrote:
"Im going to use your Force Weapon Special rule."
"Im going to remove a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test."


You have been given permission by MSS to do only one of these.

So the latter isn't a requirement for the former?
So a psyker with a Force weapon can say "I'm going to use my Force weapon's special rule. I then choose not to spend a charge."?

Force wrote:If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the
test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

Activating something is the same as using it. Agreed?
Since the only clause for no additional effect is if there's no WC points or the test is failed, once activated the WC must be spent/test taken. Agreed?

I don't see how you can argue that the ability can be activated, but no WC spent/test made. The Force rule doesn't allow for that.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:RAI.

<- saying stuff like this is very easy. Offering proof of your contention on the other hand is a bit harder. I've quoted rules-text several times previously which supports my opinion.

It's time you did the same: Can you state any 'other' rules-legal way that the controller of the MSS can be said to benefit from the Force property of the psykers' weapon other than it's forced activation? (and everything that goes along with it such as the resulting leadership test)

Pg. 60 BRB. It lists several benefits for force weapons.

You choose to ignore these however and focus on your interpretation of a rule that does not specifically grant you what you claim it does.

 kirsanth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
kirsanth, that does not refute what I said.

It does refute it, whether you agree with it is another thing entirely.

I simply posted that because it HAS been answered. Repeatedly.

That said, I am not 100% on either side of this debate, simply annoyed at people requesting demanding responses to something that has already been responded to.

It has not been answered correctly though.

This in particular is incorrect:
"the special rule that the weapon has specifically grants the model the ability to activate the weapon by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test. This is explicitly granted by the weapon's own special rule. "

This is how it should read:

the special rule that the weapon has specifically grants the model the ability to activate the weapon by choosing to expend a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test. This choice is explicitly granted to the Psyker by the weapon's own special rule.

Lt.Soundwave wrote:Pg. 60 BRB. It lists several benefits for force weapons.

You choose to ignore these however and focus on your interpretation of a rule that does not specifically grant you what you claim it does.

I've reviewed page 60 of the BRB. It does not refute my contention at all from what i can tell. Can you be more specific about how it validates your argument?

Maybe its that the pysker making the choice not the weapon is the problem people are having?

I see it (force) as a special rule that requires addtionial requirements to be meet. Do you have permission to require those condtions to be meet? Do you have access to the requirements to be fulfilled independently? (Or on your own) Opposing players cannot make choices for models that are not thiers, they can use certain things, as the MSS rule reads to me, but thats about it. They cannot make choices beyond the weapon, they have no permission to require the warp charge to be used, as the psyker can choose, not the weapon can choose.

That is where the Anti side is at more or less.

Can you state any 'other' rules-legal way that the controller of the MSS can be said to benefit from the Force property of the psykers' weapon other than it's forced activation?

That page has a table, on that table are several other benefits of various force weapons. AP value, Strength bonus's etc.

Our contention is that you gain the force property we can all agree on this.

However nowhere does the MSS rule state you are allowed to force the model to make its Psyk test. That is RAI.

And once again, No one is saying that MSS forces the psyker model to make a leadership test. It is the Force USR that 'forces' the psyker to make a leadership test.

All MSS does is force the psyker to activate his or her force weapon; by virtue of the MSS-ed attacks benefiting from all of the special rules of the weapon including the force property.

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67). If the
test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.

The psyker may immediately choose. As has been repeated endlessly. The force property gives the psyker the option while using his force weapon. Nothing more.

The argument you lay out is RAI to its core.

1) MSS benefits from the Force property of the weapon.

Agreed.

2) The only way to 'benefit' from the Force property of the weapon is to activate it.

Refuted. Pg 60 BRB: Other benefits listed in table.

3) Activating the Force property of the weapon requires spending a warp charge and taking a leadership check. It is not optional and you may not 'choose' which of the latter two to fulfill if the choice has already been made to activate the weapon.

Incorrect. The force property of the weapon is always active. Is a force weapon at any time considered a non force weapon? No. there is an instead death effect that a force weapon may cause if a PSYKER chooses to do so by expending a warp charge.

As I said, MSS has the Force ability to cause ID, it just does not have the means.

 Neorealist wrote:
And once again, No one is saying that MSS forces the psyker model to make a leadership test. It is the Force USR that 'forces' the psyker to make a leadership test.

All MSS does is force the psyker to activate his or her force weapon; by virtue of the MSS-ed attacks benefiting from all of the special rules of the weapon including the force property.

I think you mean 'allows' not 'forces'

and allows not force

All the Force USR does is allow the Psyker a choice. If this choice is exercised by the Psyker, then it has additional rules.

That would be RAW. Neo seems intent on an RAI reading being the only answer. WTB FAQ.

 DeathReaper wrote:
All the Force USR does is allow the Psyker a choice. If this choice is exercised by the Psyker, then it has additional rules.

To be fair, it seems the people that disagree with you are saying that MSS allowing use choice of a weapon and it's abilities means that the choice to use the ability is also chosen.

/shrug

No i intended to use the word 'forces', with all that it indicates.

Yes, the force USR normally offers the psyker the choice to activate his or her force weapon or not.

MSS takes away that latter choice (to'not' activate the Force weapon) by virtue of requiring the attacks made under it's influence to include 'all the benefits' of the weapon.

From that point it's just a matter of following what the Force USR asks you to do for any psyker which has chosen to activate his or her force weapon and applying it to the unsaved wounds caused by the psyker him or herself.

 Neorealist wrote:
MSS takes away that latter choice (to'not' activate the Force weapon) by virtue of requiring the attacks made under it's influence to include 'all the benefits' of the weapon.

Except the MSS rule does not say that, so it can not be true.

The only benefit of the Force USR is that the Psyker can make a choice for additional effects.

Expending a Warp Charge point is not an ability or benefit of the weapon. We know this is true because a weapon with the Force USR in the hands of a non-psychic Inquisitor can not expend a Warp Charge point.

Happyjew wrote:
For the pro-Force guys, your claim is you can choose to use any abilities of the weapon chosen to inflict the attack. Now hypothetical scenario:

Lord with MSS in challenge with Striking Scorpion Exarch with Scorpion Claw (PF) and Scorpion Chiansword (+1 Str), who fails the Leadership test.

Now my question. Since you are advocating that you can choose to activate any abilities (and by extension penalties) of the weapon, what is to prevent the MSS player from choosing to use the PF but deciding not to use the Unwieldy property?

You cannot pick and choose which aspects of an ability to use, only the ability itself.

For example, I mindshackle a space marine captain with a thunderhammer. I cannot choose to have him strike himself with the thunderhammer and then choose for him not to suffer Instant Death. It's all or nothing. If I choose him to hit himself with the thunderhammer, then he suffers all the consequences that follows with it, including getting ID'd if he isn't Eternal Warrior or striking at I1 next turn if he is.

In the non psychic inquisitors case we also know he can't activate force in the first place.

We never said there weren't restrictions. If you have already used a warp charge to cast hammer and you also can't make your opponent take the test.

 Lukus83 wrote:
In the non psychic inquisitors case we also know he can't activate force in the first place.

We never said there weren't restrictions. If you have already used a warp charge to cast hammer and you also can't make your opponent take the test.

It also serves to illustrate that expending a Warp Charge point is not a ability or benefit of the weapon, so MSS does not force its use.

DeathReaper wrote:The only benefit of the Force USR is that the Psyker can make a choice for additional effects.

This is an interesting interpretation.

By that logic: you wouldn't consider the ability to 'instant death' something upon a successful leadership check and warp charge expenditure to be a 'benefit' of the force weapon, and further one which could not be used if the psyker has not activated the weapon?