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Once the choice is invoked the effects are benefits of the Force USR.

MSS does not have the ability to make that choice, so it gains no additional benefit.

DeathReaper wrote:Once the choice is invoked the effects are benefits of the Force USR. MSS does not have the ability to make that choice, so it gains no additional benefit.

As I understand it though MSS can force the Psyker's player to activate their force weapon with all that entails in order to fulfill it's requirement of granting access to 'all' of the melee weapons' abilities and penalties. in a nutshell the only way to benefit from the 'force' property is via activation, otherwise it does nothing.

Edit: the Force USR is not unique in this aspect though. Any weapon which grants a re-roll on failed to wound rolls (Like Poisoned weapons in certain situations) functions similarly, as does the Axe Morkai and other weapons with choices to be made in how they are used in combat.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Lukus83 wrote:
In the non psychic inquisitors case we also know he can't activate force in the first place.

We never said there weren't restrictions. If you have already used a warp charge to cast hammer and you also can't make your opponent take the test.

It also serves to illustrate that expending a Warp Charge point is not a ability or benefit of the weapon, so MSS does not force its use.

Except that Force requires you to expend a warp charge since that is how it is activated.

It may not be directly associated with the weapon, but Force certainly is. I can see your argument, I really do. I cannot however accept the separation of "Force" and the rules that show you how to use it. To activate Force you must expend a warp charge. If there are no warp charges left fair enough, but again, if you wish to activate Force you must have FULL access to the rules that govern it's use. I just can't see it any other way.

And on that point I am also bowing out. Our local tournament ruling has allowed it until an FAQ states otherwise (I directed them to this thread to allow them to decide for themselves).
Tournament Round 2 preparation awaits...

Not requires, Choosing to spend the warp charge is how it is activated.

If the warp charge were required it would be automatically spent and the psyker would not have a choice.

MSS can not force the psyker to spend a warp charge because spending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon.

Spending a warp charge is the ability of the psyker.

MSS can not make a psyker spend a Warp Charge point.

If you do not expend the Warp Charge has Force been activated? If the answer is no the rules for MSS have been violated.

Sorry. Really butting out now (at least, I will try to...damned internet's everywhere these days).

 Lukus83 wrote:
If you do not expend the Warp Charge has Force been activated? If the answer is no the rules for MSS have been violated.

Sorry. Really butting out now (at least, I will try to...damned internet's everywhere these days).

Force is always active. The instant death part requires activation, but activation isn't mandatory and the weapon still functions just fine without it. So yes, force is active without spending a warp charge. Optionally expending a warp charge just enhances it. And nothing in the MSS rule gives you that option.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not requires, Choosing to spend the warp charge is how it is activated.

If the warp charge were required it would be automatically spent and the psyker would not have a choice.

MSS can not force the psyker to spend a warp charge because spending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon.

Spending a warp charge is the ability of the psyker.

MSS can not make a psyker spend a Warp Charge point.

So MSS cannot make use of the Force SR?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not requires, Choosing to spend the warp charge is how it is activated.

If the warp charge were required it would be automatically spent and the psyker would not have a choice.

MSS can not force the psyker to spend a warp charge because spending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon.

Spending a warp charge is the ability of the psyker.

MSS can not make a psyker spend a Warp Charge point.

So MSS cannot make use of the Force SR?

It can, but Force on its own only allows a choice to expend a warp charge to get its additional effects and that only happens when the psyker chooses to expend a warp charge, as all Force does is give the psyker a choice to expend a charge to inflict ID. (Barring the passage of a psychic test that is).

So you inflict D3 wounds with the psykers weapon with the Force USE, and the psyker gets to choose to expend the warp charge to have those wounds cause ID.


In reality though the psyker will not have a warp charge to spend 99.99999% of the time anyway.

That's a long winded way of saying "No, it can't.".
I still don't know why you're taking a requirement of the activation and assuming its a second activation choice.

Because nowhere in the rules for MSS do you get to choose to use rules - you just "get" them. Choice is not a part of the MSS rule, apart from what weapon.

Find where you get the choice to use specific abilities - it isnt there. So you cannot be the one who chooses.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because nowhere in the rules for MSS do you get to choose to use rules - you just "get" them. Choice is not a part of the MSS rule, apart from what weapon.

Find where you get the choice to use specific abilities - it isnt there. So you cannot be the one who chooses.

You're right, I don't get to choose. MSS just forces the activation.
Now the requirements must be met.

 Lukus83 wrote:
If you do not expend the Warp Charge has Force been activated? If the answer is no the rules for MSS have been violated.

Sorry. Really butting out now (at least, I will try to...damned internet's everywhere these days).

Well the stuff that happens has to be legal. Nowhere in the MSS rules does it say that the necron player has full control over the affected model, and because of that the attacks may most certainly benefit from legal abilities. But since the activation of Force is clearly stated in the rule book as the choice of the psyker (owner of the model) that special rule is illegal to work with MSS and the choice of activation is solely up to the psyker.

The case you are arguing would refer to a rule that just should say that MSS has total control over the model, and that is clearly not the case.

As I have said before, I can see this being faq'd in either direction since the text in the MSS rule is quite weak. But in my opinion if it was gw's intention of making the rule as you choose to interprete it I believe they would have just stated that the model is completely under the MSS owners control, which they didn't do even they second time the wrote the text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:
And once again, No one is saying that MSS forces the psyker model to make a leadership test. It is the Force USR that 'forces' the psyker to make a leadership test.

All MSS does is force the psyker to activate his or her force weapon; by virtue of the MSS-ed attacks benefiting from all of the special rules of the weapon including the force property.

And there you break the core rules. Because in the special rules section in the 6th editoin core rules it specificly says that the psyker has a choice of whether to activate or not. So the Force USR can not force anyone to activate it. To do so it must say exactly that in the MSS rules or in the faq, which it doesn't.

MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

They are using the Force USR by giving the Psyker a choice to expend a Warp Charge point or not.

That is what the Force USR does. It allows for a choice.

It's really that simple.

Round and round you go. And again the answer is the same. The only choice ever given is that of the activation of the force weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

They are using the Force USR by giving the Psyker a choice to expend a Warp Charge point or not.

That is what the Force USR does. It allows for a choice.

It's really that simple.

Again, you're assuming the requirement of activation is actually the activation.
I'm still not sure why you say that.

Force doesn't say "If you cause a wound you can activate Force. Then you can choose to spend a Warp Charge, etc."
You activate Force by spending the Warp Charge and passing the test.
MSS uses all abilities and penalties of the weapon. Force is an ability of the weapon.

If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it...

So Psyker has inflicted a wound, and the necron player wants to use the force ability of the weapon. The Psyker must now take his test.

I don't see any choice about spending the warp charge, I see a choice about activating force, which the Necron player is using.

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

And there you are wrong just as before. MSS rules does not say use and benefit from any abilities. You are just assuming that it's that way gw meant it to work. We who do not think that way separate the abilities of a weapon which MUST happen because you do not have a choice and the special rules which are activated by choice. Does MSS say that you can make choices of the model affected by MSS, nope it doesn't. And just as I can't ignore to instant kill someone with a str 8 hit if their toughness is 4 because it isn't my choice to make, I also can ignore to ID someone with a force weapon since it's clearly according to the 6th edition rules MY choice to make.

There is no benefit from the "force" special rule, not until the psyker has made a choice about activating it or not. And as posted 100 times in this thread, MSS rules does not say that the necron player controls the model.

The only choice ever given is that of the activation of the force weapon. MSS makes the psyker activate the force weapon since that is the only way its hits are going to benefit from the "force" rule.

PS Circular arguments bring circular counter arguments. Until you can quote how the spending of the warp charge is a choice by itself and unrelated to the choice of activating the weapon, I don't think there is much to add to this topic.

 Stoff3 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

And there you are wrong just as before. MSS rules does not say use and benefit from any abilities.

So "benefit from any abilities" doesn't mean special rules are activated?

copper.talos wrote:
The only choice ever given is that of the activation of the force weapon. MSS makes the psyker activate the force weapon since that is the only way its hits are going to benefit from the "force" rule.

PS Circular arguments bring circular counter arguments. Until you can quote how the spending of the warp charge is a choice by itself and unrelated to the choice of activating the weapon, I don't think there is much to add to this topic.

So you recognize the fact that it isn't the weapon itself that activates? It's clearly stated under "Force" in the 6th edition rulebook that it is a choice by itself made by the psyker. Feel free to read it.

Just because you can't benefit from something because rules hinder it doesn't mean than everything will bend after MSS quite weak ruling text. You will benefit from the abilities you CAN benefit from, not from those who contains a choice not being allowed to be made by the necron player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

And there you are wrong just as before. MSS rules does not say use and benefit from any abilities.

So "benefit from any abilities" doesn't mean special rules are activated?

If it was abilities that activates by the weapon itself and there's no choice then it would activate. But there's no way in hell people are gonna accept that you will get to benefit from an ability created by a legit choice made by the owner of the model, then you are plain out skipping one step. As I said before, you will benefit from abilities you CAN benefit from, but as it's not your choice to make you can't benefit from the ID special rule, unless the psyker chooses to activate the ID special rule. You know, a force sword can be used without activating the ID special rule.

Stoff read the Force section I just posted.

MSS allows the Necron player to use the Force special rule. The choice of Force is if a wound was caused, Force can be declared. Since it was declared, the Psyker must then, Spend the Warp Charge (if available) and take a perils test.

 Stoff3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
MSS makes the victim use any abilities of the weapon. Is Force an ability of the weapon? Yes, so the MSS's victim must use it. It's really that simple.

And there you are wrong just as before. MSS rules does not say use and benefit from any abilities.

So "benefit from any abilities" doesn't mean special rules are activated?

If it was abilities that activates by the weapon itself and there's no choice then it would activate. But there's no way in hell people are gonna accept that you will get to benefit from an ability created by a legit choice made by the owner of the model, then you are plain out skipping one step. As I said before, you will benefit from abilities you CAN benefit from, but as it's not your choice to make you can't benefit from the ID special rule, unless the psyker chooses to activate the ID special rule. You know, a force sword can be used without activating the ID special rule.

So your answer is "Yes, "benefit from any abilities" does not mean special rules are activated." or re-worded to be less cumbersome, ""benefit from any abilities" does not mean special rules are activated."
So then I'm not benefiting from that ability. And MSS says I must.

Answer this one question for me please.

Who can choose to activate the weapon?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Answer this one question for me please.

Who can choose to activate the weapon?

Normally, only "a psyker."
But again, the MSS must override that because the hits must "benefit from any abilities".
If Force cannot be activated then MSS did not benefit from the ability, and therefore a rule was broken.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Answer this one question for me please.

Who can choose to activate the weapon?

Normally, only "a psyker."
But again, the MSS must override that because the hits must "benefit from any abilities".
If Force cannot be activated then MSS did not benefit from the ability, and therefore a rule was broken.

If Force cannot be activated then MSS did not benefit from the ability, and therefore a rule was broken.

This is incorrect, as has already been posted in this thread the force property is always on. You benefit from it 100% of the time at no point is the weapon NOT a force weapon.

Nothing in MSS lets you make that choice for the psyker about to activate or not. That is pure RAI.

Exactly how can you benefit from the force ability of a force weapon without activating it in the 1st place?

Because your weapon always HAS the Force ability

Nowhere in the MSS rule are you allowed to *choose* to activate abilities. The ONLY choice you get is over which weapon to choose

You benefit from Force, as it is a property of the weapon. Nothing allows you the choice to activate it.

Find the choice to activate a weapons special abilities by forcingt a psyker to manifest a psychic power. If you do not do so you must concede the argument

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Answer this one question for me please.

Who can choose to activate the weapon?

Normally, only "a psyker."
But again, the MSS must override that because the hits must "benefit from any abilities".
If Force cannot be activated then MSS did not benefit from the ability, and therefore a rule was broken.

MSS is benefiting from the ability.

Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate.

The MSS give the Psyker that choice as well. thus MSS had benefited from that ability.

If the psyker chooses to take it or not is on the Psyker. as expending a warp charge point is not an ability of the weapon.

We know this because in the hands of a non-psyker force does not activate.

 DeathReaper wrote:

MSS is benefiting from the ability.

According to you, it's not. Because if the ability isn't activated, MSS isn't benefiting from it. MSS forces the activation.

Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate.

Agreed in general.

The MSS give the Psyker that choice as well. thus MSS had benefited from that ability.

False. You're making the Warp Charge+Test separate from the activation of the Force ability.
If the ability is activated, the WC+Test requirement must be met.

If the psyker chooses to take it or not is on the Psyker. as expending a warp charge point is not an ability of the weapon.

Please stop with this. It's insulting to insinuate that I've argued that. I haven't.

We know this because in the hands of a non-psyker force does not activate.

No, it does not activate in the hands of a non-psyker because Force only gives the options to Psykers and non-psykers cannot meet the requirements of the ability.
Not because "expending a warp charge point is not an ability of the weapon".

Please, debate what I've actually said, not what you want to pretend I've said.