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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:02:22
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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According to you, it's not. Because if the ability isn't activated, MSS isn't benefiting from it. MSS forces the activation.
Incorrect.
MSS is benefiting from the ability.
Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate.
The MSS give the Psyker that choice as well. thus MSS had benefited from that ability.
BOTH allow the choice. THAT is the benefit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:02:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:04:26
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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The Hive Mind
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nosferatu1001 wrote:You benefit from Force, as it is a property of the weapon. Nothing allows you the choice to activate it.
To benefit from an ability it must be activated. Without requiring activation there's no benefit.
Find the choice to activate a weapons special abilities by forcingt a psyker to manifest a psychic power. If you do not do so you must concede the argument
False. Find the allowance to benefit from Force without activating it. Note that giving your opponent a choice isn't a benefit.
It's also not a penalty associated with the weapon so doesn't fall under the penalties clause in MSS. Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's an interesting definition of benefit. It's something that doesn't help the MSS attack/owner in any way, but it's a benefit?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:06:31
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:11:02
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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You are "benefitting" from the ability - the weapon does not stop being a Force weapon, does it? Thus you have benefitted from the Force rule.
You are creating this idea that the only way to benefit from a rule is to be allowed to make choices about the rule - that is not a strict reading of the term "benefit"
There is *no* allowance to make a choice about an ability given in MSS, therefore you are *not* allowed to make any choices not explicitly given
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:14:12
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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rigeld2 wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:You benefit from Force, as it is a property of the weapon. Nothing allows you the choice to activate it.
To benefit from an ability it must be activated. Without requiring activation there's no benefit.
Find the choice to activate a weapons special abilities by forcingt a psyker to manifest a psychic power. If you do not do so you must concede the argument
False. Find the allowance to benefit from Force without activating it. Note that giving your opponent a choice isn't a benefit.
It's also not a penalty associated with the weapon so doesn't fall under the penalties clause in MSS.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's an interesting definition of benefit. It's something that doesn't help the MSS attack/owner in any way, but it's a benefit?
Which is why Ive stated repeatedly that you are using RAI. Having the force property and offering the choice IS a benefit that it would not otherwise have, period.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:16:40
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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rigeld2 wrote: According to you, it's not. Because if the ability isn't activated, MSS isn't benefiting from it. MSS forces the activation. Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate.
Agreed in general.
If you agree that Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate, then MSS is benefiting from the ability because all the Force ability does is give the psyker a choice. MSS is benefiting by giving the psyker that choice as well.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:16:45
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:17:18
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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The Hive Mind
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nosferatu1001 wrote:You are creating this idea that the only way to benefit from a rule is to be allowed to make choices about the rule - that is not a strict reading of the term "benefit"
That's not what I'm saying at all.
I don't care about making choices - I'm saying that the rule is activated. There is no choice involved.
You're the one separating any benefit of the rule from the activation of the rule.
There is *no* allowance to make a choice about an ability given in MSS, therefore you are *not* allowed to make any choices not explicitly given
I'm not making a choice. I'm forcing the activation of a rule because I must benefit from all abilities.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:18:06
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Having the force property and offering the choice IS a benefit that it would not otherwise have, period.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:18:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:18:52
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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The Hive Mind
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DeathReaper wrote:If you agree that Force allows the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate, then MSS is benefiting from the ability because all the Force ability does is give the psyker a choice.
You're separating the "choice" from the activation of the ability.
The choice *is* the activation. It's not separate.
MSS must benefit from the ability, therefore the activation is forced - no choice involved. Automatically Appended Next Post: Lt.Soundwave wrote:Having the force property and offering the choice IS a benefit that it would not otherwise have, period.
So you'd have this exact same stance if, for example, Shred gave you the option to re-roll to wound?
IE you MSS Shrike, he'd be able to opt not to re-roll wounds on himself?
There's no benefit without function.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:20:33
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:22:01
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Right the psyker chooses to expend a Warp Charge point, that is how the weapon is activated.
MSS does not force the use of the Psykers Warp Charge point as the MSS rule does not say it can, so it can't
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:23:37
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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There's no benefit without function.
RAI.
The fact the choice exists at all where otherwise there would be none is a benefit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:36:45
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Sorry, it's also just your opinion (rather than RAW) to presume that having a choice in the matter (and choosing not to activate the force weapon) fulfills the MSS rules, specifically the part that says the attacks 'benefit from any abilities'.
I'd still like to see someone explain how the attack are receiving 'all the benefits' of the force property of a weapon if the choice is not made (or 'forced') to activate it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:41:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:38:03
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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I believe its page 60 of the BRB which has a table regarding force weapons. I pointed it out several pages back.
On this table is a listing of several benefits various force weapons grant.
Sorry, it's also just your opinion (rather than RAW) to presume that having a choice in the matter (and choosing not to activate the force weapon) fulfills the MSS rules, specifically the part that says the attacks 'benefit from any abilities'.
also this is irrelevant. Burden of proof. The onus is on you to say why my good sir, the onus is not on us to say why not.
Thus far the pro side has not constructed an argument that was non RAI at any point in this entire discussion.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:40:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:47:13
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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The Hive Mind
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Lt.Soundwave wrote:I believe its page 60 of the BRB which has a table regarding force weapons. I pointed it out several pages back.
The table that lists Melee, Force?
How is that benefiting from the Force ability?
Note that a "Force Weapon" is a different thing from the "Force" SR, and MSS says that the hits must benefit from all abilities of the weapon.
So your table reference is useless.
Thus far the pro side has not constructed an argument that was non RAI at any point in this entire discussion.
No, your refusal to accept an argument that is written does not make it RAI. The fact that you've pointed out the irrelevant table twice now reinforces the point that you don't understand the argument being presented against you.
As written, MSS must benefit from the Force SR.
As written, the Force SR requires activation.
As written, MSS does not benefit from the Force SR without forcing activation.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:48:21
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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As written, MSS must benefit from the Force SR.
Agreed.
As written, the Force SR requires activation.
RAI.
As written, MSS does not benefit from the Force SR without forcing activation.
RAI.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:48:52
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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That table does list 'some' of the benefits of force weapons yes. However the attacks do not benefit from 'some' of the abilities, they benefit from 'any' of the abilities of the weapon.
Unless all (not just some) of the weapons abilities are active and available to the Necron player, the MSS rules-text has not been fulfilled. This includes the optional parts in this case the part of the Force USR after the word 'chooses'.
As for burden of proof? it doesn't get more explicit than 'If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat has been struck."
How does a model 'return' to someone's control if they never 'left' their control (as you've been contending regarding the choice to activate the force weapon) in the first place?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:49:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:51:33
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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The Hive Mind
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So it's always on? Or it's activated? Or is there some 3rd state in the rules I'm not familiar with?
As written, MSS does not benefit from the Force SR without forcing activation.
RAI.
You still haven't shown a benefit to the Force SR if it's not activated.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:51:38
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Unless all (not just some) of the weapons abilities are active and available to the Necron player, the MSS rules-text has not been fulfilled. This includes the optional parts in this case the part of the Force USR after the word 'chooses'.
As Death has pointed out, No where in the force weapon property SR etc does the weapon do anything but offer a choice to the psyker.
So it's always on? Or it's activated? Or is there some 3rd state in the rules I'm not familiar with?
This has been covered. Re read the posts.
You still haven't shown a benefit to the Force SR if it's not activated.
Numerous people have, you choose to ignore it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/28 17:53:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 17:57:30
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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The Hive Mind
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Lt.Soundwave wrote:
So it's always on? Or it's activated? Or is there some 3rd state in the rules I'm not familiar with?
This has been covered. Re read the posts.
I'm assuming because you bolded that answer it's always on - which means you're separating the activation of the ability from the requirements of the ability.
Again. No one has been able to provide a rules reason why that's being done.
You still haven't shown a benefit to the Force SR if it's not activated.
Numerous people have, you choose to ignore it.
No, allowing the opponent to make a choice for me is not a benefit. Since the rules don't define the word (I'm pretty sure - correct me if I'm wrong) we can go with the plain english definition on this one.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:00:38
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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we can go with the plain english definition on this one.
Having the force property of the weapon is a benefit you would not otherwise have. Allowing the psyker model the choice to activate the ID property of the weapon is a choice you would not otherwise have.
Both of these are benefits, you are choosing to ignore them in favor of another benefit you would like to have. One the weapon simply cannot achieve.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 18:00:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:07:46
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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It's not so much that the 'pro-MSS' would like to have extra benefits, as the fact that having access to 'all' of the abilities of a given weapon 'grants' them that benefit.
Also you may want to address how a model can be said to return to the owning players' control without having 'left' the owning players control?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:13:05
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Huge Bone Giant
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Lt.Soundwave wrote:Allowing the psyker model the choice to activate the ID property of the weapon is a choice you would not otherwise have
Part of the issue is that at this point, the model's choices are being made by the Necron.
It is rather easy to read that the choices allowed by the parenthetical include the abilities.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:18:41
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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The Hive Mind
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Lt.Soundwave wrote:we can go with the plain english definition on this one.
Having the force property of the weapon is a benefit you would not otherwise have.
Which, by itself, does nothing - because it must be activated.
Both of these are benefits, you are choosing to ignore them in favor of another benefit you would like to have. One the weapon simply cannot achieve.
You're assigning bias. You shouldn't.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:33:56
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Heh, I see bias. Hence the phrasing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:35:02
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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Huge Bone Giant
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Tyranids have no dog in this race.
As it were.
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"It is not the bullet with your name on it that should worry you, it's the one labeled "To whom it may concern. . ."
DQ:70S++G+++MB+I+Pwhfb06+D++A+++/aWD-R++++T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:51:00
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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rigeld2 wrote: Lt.Soundwave wrote:we can go with the plain english definition on this one.
Having the force property of the weapon is a benefit you would not otherwise have.
Which, by itself, does nothing - because it must be activated.
Which is why I have said,
MSS has the ability to cause ID with a FW, but does not have the means.
If it was within the force weapons abilities to take a psychic test to activate, then it would have both the ability and the means. Look at it this way,
You have a hammer in your right hand. You are allowed to do anything with that hammer that is allowed with a hammer. However, the hammer does not have the ability to force you to hold a nail with your left hand so that it can hammer it into a wall. You could still smash plates with the hammer, bash someones skull in, or squish ants on the sidewalk outside, however it does not have the ability to force your left hand to hold a nail to hammer it into the wall.
It has the ability to hammer a nail into a wall, but does not have the means to hold a nail.
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If you are jumping on the Dinobot meme bandwagon regarding the new Warhammer 40k Chaos models, grow the feth up! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 18:59:19
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Tyranids have no dog in this race.
As it were.
Bias takes many forms.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 19:01:42
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
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Not to sound like a broken record here: but i would really like someone from the 'anti-MSS' side to address how a model can be said to 'return to the owning players control' afterwards if it never left the owning players control to begin with?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/28 19:06:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 19:06:23
Subject: Re:MSS and force weapons
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Stealthy Space Wolves Scout
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Neorealist wrote:Not to sound like a broken record here: but i would really like someone from the 'anti- MSS' side to address how a model can be said to 'return to the owning players control' afterwards if it never left the owning players control to begin with for the purposes of activating the models' force weapon?
I am part of the no crowd and your point has no bearing on my point at all. MSS allows all abilities and benefits of the force weapon. Taking a psychic test is not an ability of the force weapon. So control the player all you want and benefit from the weapons abilities, however taking a psychic test is still not an ability of the weapon.
How about this as a compromise,
MSS can activate a FW when you can show me the FW's leadership value for taking a psychic test. Sound good?
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If you are jumping on the Dinobot meme bandwagon regarding the new Warhammer 40k Chaos models, grow the feth up! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 19:17:51
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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The Hive Mind
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Allow me to politely correct you - I have no bias either for or against.
I do my absolute best to remove myself from discussion I don't feel I can remain objective in.
It's easy to ignore someone else's view by assigning bias. I could accuse you of being biased as well. It'd be insulting and degrade your argument. Which is why I don't do it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Tyr Grimtooth wrote: Neorealist wrote:Not to sound like a broken record here: but i would really like someone from the 'anti- MSS' side to address how a model can be said to 'return to the owning players control' afterwards if it never left the owning players control to begin with for the purposes of activating the models' force weapon?
I am part of the no crowd and your point has no bearing on my point at all. MSS allows all abilities and benefits of the force weapon.
It actually has lots of bearing if you've been following the thread.
Taking a psychic test is not an ability of the force weapon.
Absolutely 100% correct. Good job with that one!
Force is an ability of the weapon. Even the most ardent no-supporters have agreed that MSS activates the Force SR, but cannot make the choice for the Psyker.
If the Psyker isn't under the owner's control, the decision isn't up to the psyker.
So control the player all you want and benefit from the weapons abilities, however taking a psychic test is still not an ability of the weapon.
And it never will be. Force, however, is.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/28 19:20:22
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/08/28 19:24:31
Subject: MSS and force weapons
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Your premise is predicated on your interpretation of percieved benefit RAI as opposed to RAW.
Given that you cling to this one interpretation while claiming no others exist despite being shown examples?
If that isnt indicative of some kind of bias I would genuinely be surprised.
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