MSS and force weapons

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**Neorealist**

And once again: Does the Necron player have access to all of the properties of a force weapon if it is unactivated?

**DeathReaper**

MSS returns control of the model back to the owning player by not forcing him to inflict D3 hits on his own unit in subsequent assault phases.

Neorealist wrote:
And once again: Does the Necron player have access to all of the properties of a force weapon if it is unactivated?

Yes, as the activation is not controlled by the MSS player. The only property of the force weapon they ave access to is giving the psyker a choice.

**Neorealist**

I'm sorry, did you not already say that they can not access the optional instant-death property?

How do you equate being unable to access some of the features of a weapon with having full access to all the features of that weapon?

**Yad**

Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
YAd - the context is plain as day - the control the MSS owner has is well defined, whereas your contention of "full" control is entirely denied by the MSS rules. The control MSS has is well defined and exclusivey written - you dont get to suddenly decide they have full control through ignoring the context a rule is written in.

Rigeld - again, you Benefit from the Force USR. You dont, however, have any ability to CHOOSE to activate the psychic power.

Again: benefit has a simple usage in uk-english that you are missing, and does not require an "active" effect to claim to have benefitted from something. Property agents speak for "property benefits from a light, airy dining room" gives just one example.

I think you and DeathReaper may be ignoring the actual text of the MSS with regards to control, as well as how control is defined in the BRB. The only place I've found in the BRB where it specifically talks about 'control' is on pg.8, left column (Controlling Player vs Opposing Player).

To quote:
"Sometimes, a rule will ask the controlling player to make an action or decision of some kind. At others, it will place the same responsibility on the opposing player. The controlling player is always the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included it in his army. The opposing player is always his opponent."

Now couple that with the Basic versus Advanced rule found on the preceding page (pg.7). The MSS overrides the notion that the Controlling Player is the one who 'owns' the model when it is affected by MSS. Once a model is affected by MSS, control of the model and the ability to take actions and make decisions on behalf of that models transfers to the Necron player. The MSS rule then specifies exactly how long this transfer of control lasts....once all blows have been struck in the fight sub-phase.

-Yad

Edit: removed 'deliberately' as there is no way for me to know your actual motives

That is complete rubbish.

So according to your thoughts above, you could MSS a Lord of Change and make him cast Boon of Mutation on himself? The answer is no, because it is clearly stated that the only thing MSS gives you access to in terms of control is the choice of weapon. You can never ignore the fact that it is quite unatural to clearly state what the necron player can control and then just assume that everything is in the necron players control.

Your example is nonsensical. MSS is very explicity about what it does. Forcing the affected model to strike his own unit. Giving the Necron player the choice (if necessary) as to what weapon is used. It also explicitly allows any ability of the weapon to be used. MSS is focused purely on CC, specifically the fight sub-phase. In other words, that's quite the Straw Man you've built there

-Yad

**DeathReaper**

Neorealist wrote:
I'm sorry, did you not already say that they can not access the optional instant-death property?

How do you equate being unable to access some of the features of a weapon with having full access to all the features of that weapon?

MSS does not allow full access to all the features of that weapon.

The MSS does not allow you to make that choice for the psyker. That is all.

**Yad**

DeathReaper wrote:
MSS returns control of the model back to the owning player by not forcing him to inflict D3 hits on his own unit in subsequent assault phases.

You realize that you've just accepted that MSS allows the Necron player to take control of the affected model. And that means, "sometimes, a rule will ask the controlling player to make an action or decision of some kind." BRB pg.8 (Controlling Player vs Opposing Player)

Since you've already acknowledged that MSS allows access to the Force USR, you shouldn't have any problem with allowing the Necron player to decide to activate Force.

-Yad

**Xzerios**

Did anyone want to try the part of why the rule has 'he can immediately choose to activate it' has worded itself that creates the On/Off switch that prevents weapons with the rule from expending the Warp Charge point and taking the Psychic test on each unsaved Wound?

Pro-MSS still hasnt addressed that. And just so you know, your options are this:

No, it doesnt work that way cause the contents of the rule are always on! (which is incorrect as RAW shows)
It does have this built in On/Off switch to prevent the rule from triggering every unsaved wound. However, due to this switch, it lies just outside the boundaries for what MSS RAW has given the Necron player permission to do.

Litterally, it looks like this if you were to draw out what MSS entails:

____________MSS_________________=/=______outside MSS
Strength, initiative, weapon, special rules =/= choices within special rules

**DeathReaper**

But not total control.

It only controls who they hit, how many times, and tells us that you get the choice of CCW they use.

That is it.

**Neorealist**

DeathReaper wrote:MSS does not allow full access to all the features of that weapon.

The MSS does not allow you to make that choice for the psyker. That is all.

Oh but it does, that is what "...These hits...benefit from any abilities and penalties..." means. Any really does mean 'any'.

**Stoff3**

Yad wrote:
Stoff3 wrote:
Yad wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
YAd - the context is plain as day - the control the MSS owner has is well defined, whereas your contention of "full" control is entirely denied by the MSS rules. The control MSS has is well defined and exclusivey written - you dont get to suddenly decide they have full control through ignoring the context a rule is written in.

Rigeld - again, you Benefit from the Force USR. You dont, however, have any ability to CHOOSE to activate the psychic power.

Again: benefit has a simple usage in uk-english that you are missing, and does not require an "active" effect to claim to have benefitted from something. Property agents speak for "property benefits from a light, airy dining room" gives just one example.

I think you and DeathReaper may be ignoring the actual text of the MSS with regards to control, as well as how control is defined in the BRB. The only place I've found in the BRB where it specifically talks about 'control' is on pg.8, left column (Controlling Player vs Opposing Player).

To quote:
"Sometimes, a rule will ask the controlling player to make an action or decision of some kind. At others, it will place the same responsibility on the opposing player. The controlling player is always the player who 'owns' the model in question - the one who has included it in his army. The opposing player is always his opponent."

Now couple that with the Basic versus Advanced rule found on the preceding page (pg.7). The MSS overrides the notion that the Controlling Player is the one who 'owns' the model when it is affected by MSS. Once a model is affected by MSS, control of the model and the ability to take actions and make decisions on behalf of that models transfers to the Necron player. The MSS rule then specifies exactly how long this transfer of control lasts....once all blows have been struck in the fight sub-phase.

-Yad

Edit: removed 'deliberately' as there is no way for me to know your actual motives

That is complete rubbish.

So according to your thoughts above, you could MSS a Lord of Change and make him cast Boon of Mutation on himself? The answer is no, because it is clearly stated that the only thing MSS gives you access to in terms of control is the choice of weapon. You can never ignore the fact that it is quite unatural to clearly state what the necron player can control and then just assume that everything is in the necron players control.

Your example is nonsensical. MSS is very explicity about what it does. Forcing the affected model to strike his own unit. Giving the Necron player the choice (if necessary) as to what weapon is used. It also explicitly allows any ability of the weapon to be used. MSS is focused purely on CC, specifically the fight sub-phase. In other words, that's quite the Straw Man you've built there

-Yad

¨
So you finally acknowledge the fact that the MSS rule specifically states what happens and which stuff the necron player has control over? Nice! Then please stop making things up about total control please. This is getting silly.

**DeathReaper**

Neorealist wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:MSS does not allow full access to all the features of that weapon.

The MSS does not allow you to make that choice for the psyker. That is all.

Oh but it does, that is what "...These hits...benefit from any abilities and penalties..." means. Any really does meant 'any'.

And expending a Warp charge point IS NOT an ability or penalty of the weapon...

**Yad**

Xzerios wrote:
Did anyone want to try the part of why the rule has 'he can immediately choose to activate it' has worded itself that creates the On/Off switch that prevents weapons with the rule from expending the Warp Charge point and taking the Psychic test on each unsaved Wound?

Pro-MSS still hasnt addressed that. And just so you know, your options are this:

No, it doesnt work that way cause the contents of the rule are always on! (which is incorrect as RAW shows)
It does have this built in On/Off switch to prevent the rule from triggering every unsaved wound. However, due to this switch, it lies just outside the boundaries for what MSS RAW has given the Necron player permission to do.

Litterally, it looks like this if you were to draw out what MSS entails:

____________MSS_________________=/=______outside MSS
Strength, initiative, weapon, special rules =/= choices within special rules

First off, the decision to activate Force is not made for each unsaved wound. If you successfully activate Force all of the unsaved wounds cause ID. Secondly, I don't agree with your dichotomy. During the normal course of play when a psyker scores a number of unsaved wounds, the psyker can choose to activate Force. If the psyker do so, he must spend one warp charge and take a psychic test. The decision as to whether or not to activate Force drives the need to spend a charge and take a psychic test.

The Necron player has control of the affected model. This means that should a rule require the Necron player to make a decision on behalf of the affected model, he may choose to do so. The only decision that is offered to the Necron player in this scenario is whether or not to activate Force.

-Yad

**Neorealist**

DeathReaper wrote:
And expending a Warp charge point IS NOT an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Yes it is. (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.)

**DeathReaper**

Neorealist wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
And expending a Warp charge point IS NOT an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Yes it is. (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.)

So in the hands of a non psychic inquisitor the Force weapon still can inflict ID. Because after all, as you assert, expending a Warp charge point is, (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.) it is an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Also what the the weapons LD for the Psychic test?

You can see how you are incorrect yes?

**Neorealist**

DeathReaper wrote:So in the hands of a non psychic inquisitor the Force weapon still can inflict ID. Because after all, as you assert, expending a Warp charge point is, (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.) it is an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Also what the the weapons LD for the Psychic test?

You can see how you are incorrect yes?

Actually in the hands of a non-psychic the weapon is unable to inflict ID because the force USR also accounts for that: "...if the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect."

**kirsanth**

DeathReaper wrote:
So in the hands of a non psychic inquisitor the Force weapon still can inflict ID?

Rather unrelated, but this comes up occasionally - which non-psyker has a force weapon?
That sounds to me like saying Doom of Malant'ai is not a Zoey, so warp field doesn't work.

**DeathReaper**

That still does not negate the fact that the weapon does not have the ability to expend a warp charge or take a Psychic test on its own.

These are things the Psyker must do.

as noted in the Force rule:

"he [the psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)."

See the psyker can expend a Warp Charge point etc...

**Neorealist**

kirsanth wrote:
Rather unrelated, but this comes up occasionally - which non-psyker has a force weapon?
That sounds to me like saying Doom of Malant'ai is not a Zoey, so warp field doesn't work.

Certain grey knight inquisitor loadouts (ordo malleus i believe?) can include a nemesis daemon hammer without the bearer having to actually be psychic. (though they can be if you pay for that as well).

**DeathReaper**

kirsanth wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:
So in the hands of a non psychic inquisitor the Force weapon still can inflict ID?
Rather unrelated, but this comes up occasionally - which non-psyker has a force weapon?
That sounds to me like saying Doom of Malant'ai is not a Zoey, so warp field doesn't work.

An Ordo Malleus Inquisitor that exchanges his Chainsword with a nemesis Daemon hammer but does not take the Psyker upgrade out of the Grey Knight book.

**kirsanth**

Figured there was a reason it came up, thanks!

**Xzerios**

Yad wrote:The Necron player has control of the affected model. This means that should a rule require the Necron player to make a decision on behalf of the affected model, he may choose to do so. The only decision that is offered to the Necron player in this scenario is whether or not to activate Force.

You may note that this choice that the Necron player has is limited to weapons and Special rules that they have. Again, the choice with in Force is outside that wording.

**jy2**

Stoff3 wrote:
So according to your thoughts above, you could MSS a Lord of Change and make him cast Boon of Mutation on himself? The answer is no, because it is clearly stated that the only thing MSS gives you access to in terms of control is the choice of weapon. You can never ignore the fact that it is quite unatural to clearly state what the necron player can control and then just assume that everything is in the necron players control.

What he meant is that your example is irrelevant.

Boon of Mutation, even though it can be cast while you are in assault and at a target in assault, is actually done so in the owning player's Shooting Phase. MSS is only used in the Fight Sub-phase. MSS cannot make you use Boon any more than it could make you fire a gun in the assault phase.

**Neorealist**

DeathReaper wrote:"he [the psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)."

See the psyker can expend a Warp Charge point etc...

Yes i agree, the psyker must do those things in order for the model to benefit from the Force USR on the weapon.

So then, how does the Necron player benefit from the optional instant death property of a force weapon? (hint: read the sentence previous to this one.)

**Xzerios**

Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

**DeathReaper**

Neorealist wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:"he [the psyker] can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67)."

See the psyker can expend a Warp Charge point etc...
Yes i agree, the psyker must do those things in order for the model to benefit from the Force USR on the weapon.

So then, how does the Necron player benefit from the optional instant death property of a force weapon? (hint: read the sentence previous to this one.)

They benefit by giving the psyker a choice, just like a non MSS model.

**Neorealist**

DeathReaper wrote:They benefit by giving the psyker a choice, just like a non MSS model.

Very good! And what must that choice be, in order for the Necron player to benefit from the optional instant death property of a force weapon?

**Stoff3**

jy2 wrote:
Stoff3 wrote:
So according to your thoughts above, you could MSS a Lord of Change and make him cast Boon of Mutation on himself? The answer is no, because it is clearly stated that the only thing MSS gives you access to in terms of control is the choice of weapon. You can never ignore the fact that it is quite unatural to clearly state what the necron player can control and then just assume that everything is in the necron players control.

What he meant is that your example is irrelevant.

Boon of Mutation, even though it can be cast while you are in assault and at a target in assault, is actually done so in the owning player's Shooting Phase. MSS is only used in the Fight Sub-phase. MSS cannot make you use Boon any more than it could make you fire a gun in the assault phase.

Exactly, because the actual rules states that such a thing isn't possible. The same about the necron player activating ID special rule on a force weapon. It is only possible by the owner. And as long as there isn't anything in the MSS rules that specifically states total control of the model that isn't possible.

The arguments here shifts from forcing the psyker to make the activation to the necron player being able to control the psyker and making the decision, and nowhere is any of this to be found in the actual MSS rules! It is all based on assumptions and not many you play against is gonna accept that. You'll just have to hope for GW making changes again to the MSS text so you get or will not get your desired autowin vs Force Weapon users in challenges.

**DeathReaper**

Neorealist wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:They benefit by giving the psyker a choice, just like a non MSS model.
Very good! And what must that choice be, in order for the Necron player to benefit from the optional instant death property of a force weapon?

They have already benefited, by allowing the psyker a choice.

They are not allowed to spend a warp charge for the psyker, as the psyker spends the charge and not the weapon.

**Neorealist**

DeathReaper wrote:They are not allowed to spend a warp charge for the psyker, as the psyker spends the charge and not the weapon

Err, no; so close and yet so far. Im not saying that the psyker is not the one making the choice, just that he has no real choice in this instance as he has to select to activate the weapon.

If he 'does' have a real choice as you say how do you equate being unable to access some of the features of a weapon with having full access to all the features of that weapon?

**DeathReaper**

Neorealist wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:They are not allowed to spend a warp charge for the psyker, as the psyker spends the charge and not the weapon
Err, no; so close and yet so far. Im not saying that the psyker is not the one making the choice, just that he has no real choice in this instance as he has to select to activate the weapon.

Then please quote some rules saying the Psyker must spend his Warp charge on the Force USR.

Neorealist wrote:
If he 'does' have a real choice as you say how do you equate being unable to access some of the features of a weapon with having full access to all the features of that weapon?

Because MSS only allows the use of weapon abilities. Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon, as weapons do not have warp charges.