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 DeathReaper wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
And expending a Warp charge point IS NOT an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Yes it is. (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.)

So in the hands of a non psychic inquisitor the Force weapon still can inflict ID. Because after all, as you assert, expending a Warp charge point is, (by virtue of it being a part of the Force USR, which 'is' an ability or penalty of the weapon.) it is an ability or penalty of the weapon...

Also what the the weapons LD for the Psychic test?

You can see how you are incorrect yes?

Sorry, but no. Force weapons let you SPEND a Warp Charge. Not GIVE you a Warp Charge. Therefore a non psyker with a Force Weap could NOT spend a Warp Point because they don't have one to spend.
SPENDING the Warp Charge is a part of the FORCE special rule. The FORCE special rule is a rule/effect of the WEAPON. Mindshackle scarabs let you use EFFECTS or RULES of the WEAPON.
Stop bringing irrelevant scenarios into an argument. We're not tlaking about non-psykers here..

DeathReaper wrote:Because MSS only allows the use of weapon abilities. Spending a warp charge is not an ability of the weapon, as weapons do not have warp charges.

Circular argument is circular. Rather than ask/tell you the same thing i said the last couple of times you responded with exactly that, i'm just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They benefit by giving the psyker a choice, just like a non MSS model.

Very good! And what must that choice be, in order for the Necron player to benefit from the optional instant death property of a force weapon?

If the condition cannot be met, you cannot gain the option.
If you charge a unit of rough riders, you cannot use the hunting lance. They do S5 AP3 on the first charge, but they aren't charging.
If you fight a daemon hammer inquisitor (non-psyker) you can't ID.

So rules already exist where you can't use all options of all weapons. You can't exactly claim that's game breaking.



-Matt

Actually thats a very good point Hawaii, that's a very good illustration of an ability that can't be used against the wielder.

If a RR charges and one of them is subject to MSS, he has a hunting lance wich has an ability that can be used against the Necron player but not himself.

Unless a pro MSS can argue that the process of charging a Necron unit results in him charging himself.

Cheers

Andrew

And I can't stay away it seems. Been following this thread like a moth to a flame.

Some points I would like to make clear.

1. What is the benefit of a force weapon if it is a passive ability? Without triggering its activation sequence there is none at all (Force does nothing unless triggered, just like "Hit and Run"). It's very different from say "Preferred Enemy" which is passive since it allows you to re-roll 1's to hit and wound without a trigger. Can we agree then that Force is not passive since it needs a trigger to be of use?

2. Force weapons don't have Warp Charges it is true, and the psyker is the one that expends them, but under the Force rule to activate it you have to expend a Warp Charge. There isn't a choice. To use Force you HAVE to expend a charge. Restrictions of course apply. If there are no Warp Charges you can't use them, but since Force is a weapon ability you must look to the rules on how to use it to, you know, actually use it.

3. The hunting lance argument really means nothing. On the charge the hits are resolved at a specific Strength and AP. If you didn't charge then they are resolved regularly. MSS uses S5 AP3 if you charged, or the regular value if not.

I'll take that challenge.

Scenario: a Single Roughrider model charges a Destroyer Lord with Mindshackle scarabs.

A review of the Roughrider stat block gives us this information:
"...When they charge into close combat, a unit armed with hunting lances counts as being armed with... ...unusual power weapons... ...that strike at strength and initiative 5..."

I think you all know what Mindshackle scarabs do by now.

1) So, does the roughrider count as having charged in the above scenario? Yes.
2) Therefore for that turn, it counts as being armed with an unusual power weapon which sets it's strength and initiative scores to 5. (and incidentally is AP-3, but that is not germane to our discussion).
3) Presumably the Roughrider's player fails the 3d6 Leadership check.
4) MSS forces the Roughrider model to hit itself d3 times using the model's own weapon profile; which for this turn is modified as per their special rule.
5)...
6) Profit.

in essence the (probably grinning) necron destroyer lord makes the roughrider do unconscionable things to himself, and then goes on to do unconscionable things with his warscythe 'and' it's all book legal (though thoroughly NSFW).

This is why you probably do not want to challenge (or get in close combat at all if you can help it) a model with this particular wargear.

i am in the camp that if a psyker with a force weapon is affected by MSS then he can use the FW to ID himself, because the weapon uses all its abilties and such of both the weapon and the weilder. force is a special rule weapon, and the requirements to use it are that the weilder expend a warp charge. therefore, if the poor guy has a charge then he uses it to activate his FW, then ID himself or whatever he hits.

pretty simple to me. im not sure why there is issue here? MSS works on everything else, inc daemon weapons, lightning claws, hammers, etc. all of them utilize the special rules of the weapon and user. if it requires the user to do "something" ie spend a warp point or whatever then so be it, as long as doing so is part and parcel of using a weapon special ability.

 DarthSpader wrote:
i am in the camp that if a psyker with a force weapon is affected by MSS then he can use the FW to ID himself, because the weapon uses all its abilties and such of both the weapon and the weilder. force is a special rule weapon, and the requirements to use it are that the weilder expend a warp charge. therefore, if the poor guy has a charge then he uses it to activate his FW, then ID himself or whatever he hits.

The underlined is false.
MSS rule says abilities of the weapon NOT the wielder.

If it allowed the use of the wielders special abilities then it would be clear cut. Sadly it doesn't.

Hypothetical question time:

Say a model which has a weapon that has the following rules-text on it is MSS-ed. What happens?

"...*This Weapon* may be used as a frost blade or, if *The Wielder* wields it with both hands, a power fist. *The Wielder* may allocate his attacks as he sees fit between these two modes;..."

Who decides what the weapon is for each of the attacks, in order to determine it's effects on combat?

 Lukus83 wrote:
And I can't stay away it seems. Been following this thread like a moth to a flame.

Some points I would like to make clear.

1. What is the benefit of a force weapon if it is a passive ability? Without triggering its activation sequence there is none at all (Force does nothing unless triggered, just like "Hit and Run"). It's very different from say "Preferred Enemy" which is passive since it allows you to re-roll 1's to hit and wound without a trigger. Can we agree then that Force is not passive since it needs a trigger to be of use?

2. Force weapons don't have Warp Charges it is true, and the psyker is the one that expends them, but under the Force rule to activate it you have to expend a Warp Charge. There isn't a choice. To use Force you HAVE to expend a charge. Restrictions of course apply. If there are no Warp Charges you can't use them, but since Force is a weapon ability you must look to the rules on how to use it to, you know, actually use it.

3. The hunting lance argument really means nothing. On the charge the hits are resolved at a specific Strength and AP. If you didn't charge then they are resolved regularly. MSS uses S5 AP3 if you charged, or the regular value if not.

1. A force weapon always uses the force special rule whether you expend a charge or not. So it always counts as a power weapon of whatever type it is modelled as. Force also gives the wielder an option of using a warp charge to inflict instant death on unsaved wounds. Mind shackle scarabs has no effect on this optional ability as it is a choice given to the model and has nothing to do with the weapon.

2. There absolutely is a choice, read the force USR.

3. You did not charge yourself or your unit, so if you are attacking yourself or your unit the hits are resolved at the lower strength.

 Lukus83 wrote:
1. What is the benefit of a force weapon if it is a passive ability? Without triggering its activation sequence there is none at all (Force does nothing unless triggered, just like "Hit and Run"). It's very different from say "Preferred Enemy" which is passive since it allows you to re-roll 1's to hit and wound without a trigger. Can we agree then that Force is not passive since it needs a trigger to be of use?

The benefit of Force is giving a psyker who wields it the ability to inflict instant death with the expenditure of a warp charge and a successful psychic test. All it does is give the psyker a choice.

As I've stated earlier, I could care less how GW FAQs it since of almost everyone I play with, no one has necrons or use generic Force Weapons.

With NFWs though, if the wielder has the Brotherhood of Psyker rule, and chooses not to activate, then the rest of the unit cannot activate either, so even if you could force the activation, it may not be in your best interest to.

Kevlar wrote:

 Lukus83 wrote:
And I can't stay away it seems. Been following this thread like a moth to a flame.

Some points I would like to make clear.

1. What is the benefit of a force weapon if it is a passive ability? Without triggering its activation sequence there is none at all (Force does nothing unless triggered, just like "Hit and Run"). It's very different from say "Preferred Enemy" which is passive since it allows you to re-roll 1's to hit and wound without a trigger. Can we agree then that Force is not passive since it needs a trigger to be of use?

2. Force weapons don't have Warp Charges it is true, and the psyker is the one that expends them, but under the Force rule to activate it you have to expend a Warp Charge. There isn't a choice. To use Force you HAVE to expend a charge. Restrictions of course apply. If there are no Warp Charges you can't use them, but since Force is a weapon ability you must look to the rules on how to use it to, you know, actually use it.

3. The hunting lance argument really means nothing. On the charge the hits are resolved at a specific Strength and AP. If you didn't charge then they are resolved regularly. MSS uses S5 AP3 if you charged, or the regular value if not.

1. A force weapon always uses the force special rule whether you expend a charge or not. So it always counts as a power weapon of whatever type it is modelled as. Force also gives the wielder an option of using a warp charge to inflict instant death on unsaved wounds. Mind shackle scarabs has no effect on this optional ability as it is a choice given to the model and has nothing to do with the weapon.

2. There absolutely is a choice, read the force USR.

3. You did not charge yourself or your unit, so if you are attacking yourself or your unit the hits are resolved at the lower strength.

1. So if the Force special rule is passive, what benefit do you gain when it is not activated? I mean, there has to be a passive effect if it's a passive ability. If there is none then I personally consider it an activated ability. Taking again the example for Hit and Run. A model may have it, but you haven't actually used the ability, or gained any benefit until you take an initiative test. And if this is the case I refer you to below

2. I still don't see the choice. If you don't activate the power then MSS hasn't gained the benefit from it thus a rule has been broken. I'm not arguing that it is the Psyker who passes the test. I'm arguing the fact that to use Force you have to follow the rules governing how to activate it, or you can't really claim the MSS player has used the power/special rule/ability at all.

I'm actually seeing 1 and 2 becoming two different parts of the same argument. Might as well throw them together in the future.

3. I don't have my IG Codex on me at the moment so my argument may change depending on the wording of the Hunting Lance. Will be sure to get back to you on this one.

Sorry, I've made a mistake on the hunting lance, the current codex lists it as a power weapon on the turn it charges, so it does have it's full effect if it's turned on its' wielder. I seem to remember that in an older codex it was listed as a power weapon against the unit charged.

So change in codex = change in rules. Sorry!

Cheers

Andrew

Xzerios wrote:
Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model. MSS directs the Necron player to choose, if necessary, which weapon the affected model will use. It also provides access to any ability the chosen weapon has. Because the Necron player is now considered the 'controller' of the model (BRB pg.8) he is afforded the option to choose to activate Force. Why? Because a controlling player is allowed to make a decision when a rule prompts him for one.

1.) MSS successfully affects target model (Assumes affected model has a weapon with the Force USR)

2.) Necron player is now considered the 'controlling player' for the affected model

3.) Affected model scores a number of unsaved wounds

4.) Because Force is now an ability of the weapon it is eligible for MSS. Force requires a decision (i.e., choice) to be made as to whether or not to activate it.

5.) Because of #2 the Necron player is allowed to decide to activate Force.

The short of it is that once affected, the Necron player is the Controlling Player for that model with all the privileges that come with it. But the actions the Necron player can take on behalf of that model are narrow in scope due to the MSS rules. He can initially only decide what weapon the affected model will use. However, should any ability of the chosen weapon also require a decision, the Necron player (who is the Controlling Player for that model) is afforded the right to make that decision.

-Yad

Yad wrote:
As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model. MSS directs the Necron player to choose, if necessary, which weapon the affected model will use. It also provides access to any ability the chosen weapon has. Because the Necron player is now considered the 'controller' of the model (BRB pg.8) he is afforded the option to choose to activate Force. Why? Because a controlling player is allowed to make a decision when a rule prompts him for one.
-Yad

Except you premise of "for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model" is not true, so any conclusions drawn off of it are also not true.

MSS does not give the control of the model to the Necron player.

Unless you have a rules quote to the contrary that I missed.

 Neorealist wrote:
Hypothetical question time:

Say a model which has a weapon that has the following rules-text on it is MSS-ed. What happens?

"...*This Weapon* may be used as a frost blade or, if *The Wielder* wields it with both hands, a power fist. *The Wielder* may allocate his attacks as he sees fit between these two modes;..."

Who decides what the weapon is for each of the attacks, in order to determine it's effects on combat?

A model affected by MSS doesn't allocate any attacks. He inflicts a D3 hits. You'd have to ignore the 3rd sentence as you aren't making attacks and as such cannot allocate. You'd be stuck with either the frost blade or the power fist, but can't do both.

-Matt

Yad wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model. MSS directs the Necron player to choose, if necessary, which weapon the affected model will use. It also provides access to any ability the chosen weapon has. Because the Necron player is now considered the 'controller' of the model (BRB pg.8) he is afforded the option to choose to activate Force. Why? Because a controlling player is allowed to make a decision when a rule prompts him for one.

1.) MSS successfully affects target model (Assumes affected model has a weapon with the Force USR)

2.) Necron player is now considered the 'controlling player' for the affected model

3.) Affected model scores a number of unsaved wounds

4.) Because Force is now an ability of the weapon it is eligible for MSS. Force requires a decision (i.e., choice) to be made as to whether or not to activate it.

5.) Because of #2 the Necron player is allowed to decide to activate Force.

The short of it is that once affected, the Necron player is the Controlling Player for that model with all the privileges that come with it. But the actions the Necron player can take on behalf of that model are narrow in scope due to the MSS rules. He can initially only decide what weapon the affected model will use. However, should any ability of the chosen weapon also require a decision, the Necron player (who is the Controlling Player for that model) is afforded the right to make that decision.

-Yad

1.) Yes, nothing wrong here good sir. :3
2.) Half way, the Necron player is in control in a very specific way. MSS outlines where you are in control.
3.) I got no issue with that, its bound to happen.
4.) Force is on the weapon, yup. Read your second sentence: Force requires a decision (i.e., choice) to be made as to whether or not to activate it. This choice right here is outside the scope of what MSS has given permission to control. You have the Force USR, but not the choice to expend that Warp Charge point. Thats where Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player kicks back in and trumps MSS.
5.) Reread the rule -EXTREMELY- carefully with proper English. You are only given permission to Special rules on weapons. As MSS is written, its assuming that these Special rules that you will get to choose are Special rules without choices within them (as I have outlined and will do so again: Fleshbane, and Armorbane). There is no choice within those rules and should you the Necron player choose to use them, you are then given no choice within the rule to 'turn it on' as its worded in such a way that its simply on, period.

Im going to dissect MSS' terminology to get this point across as the Pro-MSS side -IS NOT- understanding.

Page 81 Necron Codex, second paragraph, fifth sentence exclusively for Mindshackle Scarabs replaced with 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice).

You have been given permission to all weapon choices and Special rules associated with those weapons as they are individual. The parenthesis governs -ONLY- choices to weapons as it is written, not the Special rules. Again, MSS as it is written this way assumes (and works in almost every Special rule) that this Special rule -DOES NOT- have a choice written within it; IE, its assuming that the rule is worded to insist that the Special rules confer the bonus that their rule dictates without any form of further decision making to take place (again, Fleshbane and Armorbane examples). Force as its written is most defiantly a property of the weapon. The rule is there and the no-go side is not disputing this. The problem that arises is that MSS' specific control ends when any further choices are made within those Special rules as is the case with Force. Force is written to prevent the model/weapon with this Special rule from expending a Warp Charge point on every Unsaved Wound and taking a Psychic test (which if it was written that way, it would work with MSS as no choice is made within that defined parameter). It was worded the way it is to expressly prevent such a thing from occuring. The Force USR is not a Psychic power and It CAN be done multiple times, for each Unsaved Wound for that matter; As long as you expend a Warp Charge point, and take another Psychic test.

Again, page eights Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player was trumped up to this point in the process, but again, this choice within the rule lies just outside the scope that MSS gives the Necron player control over and thus the second choice that lies in the rule now goes to the model's owner.

Xzerios wrote:
The Force USR is not a Psychic power and It CAN be done multiple times, for each Unsaved Wound for that matter; As long as you expend a Warp Charge point, and take another Psychic test.

That is not 100% correct.

"If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon..." P.37 Force USR.

You only need to expend the warp charge and take the psychic test once to manifest the power.

(Yes I said power, because that is what the Psychic Test rules state on P. 67).

"If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved..." P.67 Psychic Test rules.

Oh yes, Id also like to point out that models with Daemon weapons can actually attack D6 times if they are taken over by MSS. Simply apply the MSS Set Modifier value of D3 before the Daemon weapons Set Modifier value of D6. :3


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
The Force USR is not a Psychic power and It CAN be done multiple times, for each Unsaved Wound for that matter; As long as you expend a Warp Charge point, and take another Psychic test.

That is not 100% correct.

"If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon..." P.37 Force USR.

You only need to expend the warp charge and take the psychic test once to manifest the power.

(Yes I said power, because that is what the Psychic Test rules state on P. 67).

"If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully and can be resolved..." P.67 Psychic Test rules.

You forget the "One or more" part. Thats where its allowed to make a test and should it fail, it can try again on the next wound, you would have to note that one of those Wounds will not be an ID Wound

why not just rule that xenos or non sm psykers have to spend the warp charge to ID themselves, but SM psykers dont. because they are spess mehreens. and they always have rules that are better then everyone else.

Yad wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model.

And, as was pointed out previously, they are NOT THE OVERALL CONTROLLER of the model. They control ONLY how many times the model hits, and what weapons are used if there is a choice

You keep pretending MSS player gains full control. They dont. They gain *partial* control *only* over the specific actions listed in the MSS. That is why, when you bother to use context, the "return control" part is clear - it returns control to the player the specific elements of control that were taken, namely hitting the unit and choice over CCW

Nothing more. Nothing less. Stop making a false premise, and you may just see your error in argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:

Xzerios wrote:
Another thing Id like to point out is that due in part to the wording of MSS, it infers that the Special rules that are attached to weapons are innately on (like Fleshbane or Armorbane) for it to work as normal. Force is written is such a way that it has a choice within its own rule (again to prevent the Psyker from doing what it asks on each unsaved wound).

Until someone refutes that with proper English. Thats how the rule is written and MSS does not have permission to make the choice within the special rule.

As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model.

And, as was pointed out previously, they are NOT THE OVERALL CONTROLLER of the model. They control ONLY how many times the model hits, and what weapons are used if there is a choice

You keep pretending MSS player gains full control. They dont. They gain *partial* control *only* over the specific actions listed in the MSS. That is why, when you bother to use context, the "return control" part is clear - it returns control to the player the specific elements of control that were taken, namely hitting the unit and choice over CCW

Nothing more. Nothing less. Stop making a false premise, and you may just see your error in argument.

It's almost impossible for this to get through. I have tried to implement the things you wrote a substantial number of times here already, but in a strange way people are assuming things and making up their own rules just to get more cheese out of a already cheesy rule.

 Stoff3 wrote:
Good luck in being able to do this in tournaments, the risk is that you will be very dissapointed.

Remember this? Then check out how one of the biggest international tournaments handle the MSS-Force weapon situation (in 5th) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3x-iNml9H_TTWRJQXZFOWJqV2M/edit?pli=1 Its on pg 13.

Guess between the 2 of us, who will be disappointed in tournaments...

Ah yes, ETC - home of some incredibly dubious rules resolutions.

Every tournament I played in in the UK didnt allow MSS in 5th edition. I dont see much changing, personally

Xzerios wrote:
Oh yes, Id also like to point out that models with Daemon weapons can actually attack D6 times if they are taken over by MSS. Simply apply the MSS Set Modifier value of D3 before the Daemon weapons Set Modifier value of D6.

Where are you getting this? daemon Weapons add D6 Attacks in close combat. MSS is D3 hits. A model that only has 1 Attack can get a potential of 3 hits if affected by MSS. A model that has 256 attacks only gets D3 hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah yes, ETC - home of some incredibly dubious rules resolutions.

Slightly off-topic, but where is ETC getting this one?:

ETC 2012 Clarifications wrote:2.15 Runes of Witnessing in one Eldar army work
against the Runes of Warding in another army as
follows. When the Farseer attempts to use a psychic
power, roll 3D6. Consider the two lowest results for
the purposes of passing the test (ignoring the
highest result). Then, if the total of the 3D6 was 12
or more, the Farseer suffers a Perils of the Warp
attack (do not do this if the Farseer has already
suffered such an attack because of the lowest two
results being a double 1 or double 6).

Which completely contradicts the changes made to both Runes.

 DarthSpader wrote:
why not just rule that xenos or non sm psykers have to spend the warp charge to ID themselves, but SM psykers dont. because they are spess mehreens. and they always have rules that are better then everyone else.

Please don't assign bias to either side of this.

copper.talos wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:
Good luck in being able to do this in tournaments, the risk is that you will be very dissapointed.

Remember this? Then check out how one of the biggest international tournaments handle the MSS-Force weapon situation (in 5th) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3x-iNml9H_TTWRJQXZFOWJqV2M/edit?pli=1 Its on pg 13.

Guess between the 2 of us, who will be disappointed in tournaments...

Nice examble since they haven't made any bad calls at all about rule interpretations before?

Perhaps you have to accept that you actually have to play and don't get to autowin until GW releases a stronger text or clarification for the MSS rule. Even then you actually might get dissapointed. The MSS rules aren't strong enough for you to just jump to conclusions based on assumptions. If ETC does that, well lets just say that it isn't the first time.

 Stoff3 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:

 Stoff3 wrote:
Good luck in being able to do this in tournaments, the risk is that you will be very dissapointed.

Remember this? Then check out how one of the biggest international tournaments handle the MSS-Force weapon situation (in 5th) https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3x-iNml9H_TTWRJQXZFOWJqV2M/edit?pli=1 Its on pg 13.

Guess between the 2 of us, who will be disappointed in tournaments...

Nice examble since they haven't made any bad calls at all about rule interpretations before?

Perhaps you have to accept that you actually have to play and don't get to autowin until GW releases a stronger text or clarification for the MSS rule. Even then you actually might get dissapointed. The MSS rules aren't strong enough for you to just jump to conclusions based on assumptions. If ETC does that, well lets just say that it isn't the first time.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/466541.page
Golden Throne GT made the same call.
Nova doesn't have this in their FAQ.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
As I had pointed out though, for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model. MSS directs the Necron player to choose, if necessary, which weapon the affected model will use. It also provides access to any ability the chosen weapon has. Because the Necron player is now considered the 'controller' of the model (BRB pg.8) he is afforded the option to choose to activate Force. Why? Because a controlling player is allowed to make a decision when a rule prompts him for one.
-Yad

Except you premise of "for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the controller of the model" is not true, so any conclusions drawn off of it are also not true.

MSS does not give the control of the model to the Necron player.

Unless you have a rules quote to the contrary that I missed.

As a matter of fact I do. I actually posted earlier about it, even providing a breakdown of what the rule entails. I'm paraphrasing here but the rule specifies that the affected model, if it's still alive, returns to the owning player's control after blows have been struck. See the part there about owning player's control. Now go to the BRB pg.8 and read about Controlling Player. See the part in there that says, sometimes a rule will require an action or decision. This is in reference to the Controlling Player being able to take that action and/or make that decision.

So you have a rule in MSS that specifically says you must return control of the affected model to the owning player. You have a section in the BRB that discusses what is meant by Controlling Player and Opposing Player. If you can't see that this means that for the duration that MSS is in effect, the Necron player is the Controlling Player, well there's not much more I can say about that.

-Yad

@stoff3

Wasn't you who said that I would be disappointed in tournaments with this issue? Aren't you the first to bring up the "tournaments" in this discussion? And now you complain about tournament rulings? Really?

Just admit that you were wrong. At least on the tournaments part. It'll make you look less ego-driven.