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Xerios: I'm not skipping the activation step as such, i'm just saying that choosing to activate the weapon is a benefit of the weapon and therefore falls under the various options the MSS takes control over.

52% of people is hardly authoritive Kevlar; and furthermore has next to nothing to do with the rules being discussed. I'd suggest focusing on what i'm typing rather than commenting on how many people agree or disagree with me.

 Neorealist wrote:

52% of people is hardly authorative Kevlar; and furthermore has next to nothing to do with the rules being discussed. I'd suggest focusing on what i'm typing rather than commenting on how many people agree or disagree with me.

Maybe if you had something new to add, instead of parroting the same line you've been using for the last 20 pages. I don't think you've managed to change anyone's opinion.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

On the other hand what do you feel 'your' two previous comments have added to this discussion? I'd genuinely suggest discussing the issue rather than wether or not any of the content of my posts is novel if you wish me to reply any further to any of yours.

 Neorealist wrote:
I'd genuinely suggest discussing the issue rather than wether or not any of the content of my posts is novel if you wish me to reply any further to any of yours.

If we did that this thread would be what, 5, maybe 10 pages shorter?

Lol, perhaps but where is the fun in that?

Been following this and posted once earlier but decided to bring up a few points which probably won't change any one's mind but I have to try.

1. The errata for MSS changed it so you choose which weapons he uses not just an ambiguous "choice." This means there is less evidence for choosing to activate Force.

2. Force:
If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see pg 67). If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.
I quote and italicized that section because it does imply that both of those things are failings in attempting to activate the power. It does not state that you can't activate Force if you have no Warp Charges left. That is a deliberate choice to include that. If spending the Warp Charge is what activates it then is there a reason to even mention not having the WC to activate it leading to no additional effect?

3. MSS states that at the end of the combat the model returns to the control of the owning player. Notice it states control not complete control, which implies that the owner has no control over the model while MSS is in effect. Leading me to give more credence to allowing activation of Force.

4. If Force is a psychic power that the weapon bestows stating that the psyker is attempting to activate it is the actual first step in using it not expending a Warp Charge, per pg 67. If you are spending a Warp Charge as the activation then you are further providing proof that the Force weapon ability is not a psychic power.

Conclusion: I could care less if my crons can Force weapon a few enemies into nothing just getting free attacks is good enough for me but either way there is enough wiggle room for either interpretation.

Hence why some of us pointed out the futility in the discussion. Given the virtually dead even split in public opinion alone this will require a FAQ to settle.

Gravmyr wrote:


Conclusion: I could care less if my crons can Force weapon a few enemies into nothing just getting free attacks is good enough for me but either way there is enough wiggle room for either interpretation.

Right, which is what most sensible people have been saying. It is silly to argue because there are no rules supporting either interpretation. It is another in a long list of 6th edition rules that just isn't covered well enough. Along with bouncing/swooping FMC's, Eternal Warrior with feel no pain vs instant death, etc.

Luckily these tricky situations are few and far between. Except for the bouncing FMC, that one kinda irks me. Those are common enough that GW rules dept should have got that one done in a little better detail.

Gravmyr wrote:
If you are spending a Warp Charge as the activation then you are further providing proof that the Force weapon ability is not a psychic power.

Yea, you might want to re-check the Psychic power section.

"Once a Psyker states which psychic power he is going to attempt to manifest, follow this sequence:

1. Expend Warp Charge..." P.67

First step to manifesting a psychic power?

Expend a Warp Charge.

"PSYCHIC TEST
The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power he's calling upon. A Psychic test is a Leadership test..." P.67
and the next graph says:
"If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully..." P.67

The psychic power is manifested successfully If the [psychic] test is passed.

What does the Force USR call for?

"...taking a Psychic test (see page 67)."

So force is a psychic power since the psychic power is manifested successfully on a successful Psychic test.

I with the poll had a FAQ is Needed as a 3rd option.

-Matt

 DeathReaper wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
If you are spending a Warp Charge as the activation then you are further providing proof that the Force weapon ability is not a psychic power.

Yea, you might want to re-check the Psychic power section.

"Once a Psyker states which psychic power he is going to attempt to manifest, follow this sequence:

1. Expend Warp Charge..." P.67

First step to manifesting a psychic power?

Expend a Warp Charge.

"PSYCHIC TEST
The Psyker must now pass a Psychic test to see if he can control the power he's calling upon. A Psychic test is a Leadership test..." P.67
and the next graph says:
"If the test is passed, the psychic power is manifested successfully..." P.67

The psychic power is manifested successfully If the [psychic] test is passed.

What does the Force USR call for?

"...taking a Psychic test (see page 67)."

So force is a psychic power since the psychic power is manifested successfully on a successful Psychic test.

This made me curious. Is it activate a psychic power or manifest? Because the Force USR says that you activate it, not manifest it. As you rightly noted, pg.67 of the BRB refers only to manifesting powers. Pg.66 provides states how warp charge points can be used. It says:

Warp Charge
Warp Charge points can be expended in several ways; they can be used to fuel psychic powers, activate Force weaopns or unlock the might of ancient artifacts that are scattered across the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.

See what I'm getting at here The rules on pg.66 make a distinction between using warp charges to 'fuel' psychic powers and activating Force Weapons. It does not equate the two. Coupled with the clear definition of what Manifest is on pg.67 I do not think you're right in maintaining that Force is a psychic power. In other words, the rules clearly state that a warp charge can be used as part of manifesting a power, or to activate a force weapon, or to 'power some ancient device' (sounds like an 'other' category ).

I don't think you're in a position to equate activate with Manifest. Manifest has clear meaning in gaming terms. Examine the bold line on pg.67 just after the third paragraph. Once a Psyker states which psychic power he is going to attempt to manifest, follow this sequence. Actually, just look at the whole section titled, "Manifesting Psychic Powers'.

-Yad

Activating a Force weapon = Manifesting a Psychic power.

We know this because Force USR tells us to take a Psychic test. (It even references Page 67).

And if the test is successful, the Power is manifested successfully.

But that is really not that important to the discussion at hand.

I dunno I actually agree with Yad in this case. though I do not agree with his stated premise in terms of the discussion at large.

The two are perhaps the same but it is a compelling counterpoint that they appear to have been separated.

I continue to be of the opinion that the force property still only grants the psyker the choice and nothing more even when under the effects of MSS. I further still assert that the only argument in favor of the pro opinion of this discussion hinges on an interpretation of the word benefit and all it entails.

Still further I am of the opinion that as per burden of proof that since they cannot prove the term benefit refers to forcing the MSS victim to spend the warpcharge point that the argument on the pro side is invalid.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Activating a Force weapon = Manifesting a Psychic power.

Hmm, I just went through the entire Manifesting Psychic Powers section and didn't see that. Can you point to where I missed it? Also, how do you reconcile the Warp Charge rules that say you can use a charge to 'fuel' psychic powers, activate Force Weapons, or 'power ancient devices...'?

-Yad

Edit: Based on my reading of the rules requiring a psychic test does not automagically mean it's a psychic power. Either the rule needs to specifically say it's a psychic power, or it needs to say you are Manifesting it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I dunno I actually agree with Yad in this case. though I do not agree with his stated premise in terms of the discussion at large.

Oh well, 1 for 2 is a start I suppose

-Yad

Yad wrote:
how do you reconcile the Warp Charge rules that say you can use a charge to 'fuel' psychic powers, activate Force Weapons, or 'power ancient devices...'?

-Yad

That sentence does not contain any actual rules.

The actual rules about warp charges are in the sentence before that one.

"Each Mastery Level grants a Psyker a single Warp Charge point per turn." P.66

I edited my post yad give ita quick once over if ya could bud.

Edit: Death does make a good counterpoint. However I do think it is still interesting ancillary content if not necessarily valid.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
how do you reconcile the Warp Charge rules that say you can use a charge to 'fuel' psychic powers, activate Force Weapons, or 'power ancient devices...'?

-Yad

That sentence does not contain any actual rules.

The actual rules about warp charges are in the sentence before that one.

"Each Mastery Level grants a Psyker a single Warp Charge point per turn." P.66

Really? That sentence I quoted actually says what warp charges can be used for and your ignoring it as a rule? Aside from the last example (ancient artefacts) these are actual in-game 'things'. The line your pointing to is a rule as well. It's purpose is to equate the number of charges granted to the psyker with their mastery level. The next sentence provides examples of what a warp charge can be used for. Which exactly corresponds to both the Manifesting Psychic Powers and the Force USR.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I edited my post yad give ita quick once over if ya could bud.

Edit: Death does make a good counterpoint. However I do think it is still interesting ancillary content if not necessarily valid.

Gotcha. I wasn't referring to you accepting that MSS can activate and use Force. I was referencing your (at the time) agreement on Force not being a psychic power.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I dunno I actually agree with Yad in this case. though I do not agree with his stated premise in terms of the discussion at large.

The two are perhaps the same but it is a compelling counterpoint that they appear to have been separated.

I continue to be of the opinion that the force property still only grants the psyker the choice and nothing more even when under the effects of MSS. I further still assert that the only argument in favor of the pro opinion of this discussion hinges on an interpretation of the word benefit and all it entails.

Still further I am of the opinion that as per burden of proof that since they cannot prove the term benefit refers to forcing the MSS victim to spend the warpcharge point that the argument on the pro side is invalid.

l'm curious then how you are defining benefit as it relates to the MSS rule?

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Yad wrote:
how do you reconcile the Warp Charge rules that say you can use a charge to 'fuel' psychic powers, activate Force Weapons, or 'power ancient devices...'?

-Yad

That sentence does not contain any actual rules.

The actual rules about warp charges are in the sentence before that one.

"Each Mastery Level grants a Psyker a single Warp Charge point per turn." P.66

Oh, I also forgot to ask you about the your assertion that activate == manifest when pg.67 clearly states that psychic powers are manifested.

-Yad

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I edited my post yad give ita quick once over if ya could bud.

Edit: Death does make a good counterpoint. However I do think it is still interesting ancillary content if not necessarily valid.

Gotcha. I wasn't referring to you accepting that MSS can activate and use Force. I was referencing your (at the time) agreement on Force not being a psychic power.

-Yad

Oh I understood I just wanted to be polite.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I dunno I actually agree with Yad in this case. though I do not agree with his stated premise in terms of the discussion at large.

The two are perhaps the same but it is a compelling counterpoint that they appear to have been separated.

I continue to be of the opinion that the force property still only grants the psyker the choice and nothing more even when under the effects of MSS. I further still assert that the only argument in favor of the pro opinion of this discussion hinges on an interpretation of the word benefit and all it entails.

Still further I am of the opinion that as per burden of proof that since they cannot prove the term benefit refers to forcing the MSS victim to spend the warpcharge point that the argument on the pro side is invalid.

l'm curious then how you are defining benefit as it relates to the MSS rule?

-Yad

I define the choice granted by the Force rule to the psyker of activating via expenditure of the charge as a benefit in and of itself.


You ( if i am incorrect please correct me) Hold that the definition of benefit in this case means forcing the model to use the charge and activate the ID property.

Do we agree on these premises ?

The MSS rule doesn't say that the weapon or the model benefits from the ability. It says that the HITS benefit from any abilities of the weapon. There isn't any choice regarding the hits themselves. They either benefit or don't benefit from an ability. So with MSS all hits made by the psyker-victim using a force weapon must benefit from the force ability.

They do so - and that benefit is allowing the psyker the choice

You still need some actual rule stating the psykers choice in the matter is overridden by the MSS player being able to make the choice. That srule is not within the MSS rule

Yad - your concession is accepted.

 Neorealist wrote:
That one is easy enough. The MSSs' controller has the ability to use 'any' benefit the CCW has. Instant-death-ing the (model that has been dealt an unsaved wound) is a benefit of the Force USR and as such a benefit of the weapon.

Therefore, The MSSs' controller has the right to 'choose' to have that happen.

Now you are quoting the rules wrong. It does not say "use any benefit the ccw has". It says " ..and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons..".




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:
Xerios: I'm not skipping the activation step as such, i'm just saying that choosing to activate the weapon is a benefit of the weapon and therefore falls under the various options the MSS takes control over.

52% of people is hardly authoritive Kevlar; and furthermore has next to nothing to do with the rules being discussed. I'd suggest focusing on what i'm typing rather than commenting on how many people agree or disagree with me.

The MSS rules clearly states the amount of control the necron player has. I would believe that if MSS was to work as you want it to, GW would be quite clear about it. When a codex trumphs the BRB it is required for the rule to be clear, not to be interpreted by making assumptions.

The issue I think many of us can agree on is if MSS is able to force the psyker to take the psychic test as the necron player would want him to, even though it's stated in the BRB that the psyker himself has control of the choice. And as I stated above, if it was the case, I believe GW would understand the importance of making it clear that you can also control any choice or activate any usable ability that the model possess.

It's important to act graciously in this kind of territories. If something is really unclear or not specifically stated you shouldn't try to take advantage of it, just wait for GW to clearify the rule.

I mean I could in some way understand if tau, black templar or SM players with their outdated or weak codexes would try and gain some much needed advantages but since the most players wanting extra cheese overall atm is necron players is kind of wierd since they have access to the strongest codex out there.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:
If you are spending a Warp Charge as the activation then you are further providing proof that the Force weapon ability is not a psychic power.

Yea, you might want to re-check the Psychic power section.

"Once a Psyker states which psychic power he is going to attempt to manifest, follow this sequence:

The line you quoted above is exactly what I am referring to. You have to state what power the psyker is attempting to manifest. This happens before anything else including spending the warp charge. If you are skipping this step yo are not following these rules. Force states you skip that step and go directly to spend/expend the warp charge. Can we agree on that? You quoted the exact order of operations and Force clearly does not follow them.

Yet rolling a psychic test *does* state that this manifests the psychic power. You do not need to follow those other steps first.

So because in one section about the general use of a test stating it's a psychic power then the fact that in multiple other places that it is clearly refered to as something other than a psychic power, including in the ability itself, the section on warp charges on pg 66, it's still a psychic power..... gotcha.

The section on warp charges does not say it is ISNT a psychic power, just gives examples of use.

Permissable rule set states if it doesn't say it is one way, as you guys are arguing about not using MSS to use this "power", then you can't define it how you like. At best using the test rules to define it is implying it's a power. It is clearly seperated, if it was a power you are talking about all those things being powers cause they use psychic tests then they gave it a highlight for the sake of giving it a highlight when it was already covered as a power.....

Yad wrote: l'm curious then how you are defining benefit as it relates to the MSS rule?

-Yad

 Lt.Soundwave wrote:
I define the choice granted by the Force rule to the psyker of activating via expenditure of the charge as a benefit in and of itself.

You ( if i am incorrect please correct me) Hold that the definition of benefit in this case means forcing the model to use the charge and activate the ID property.

Do we agree on these premises ?

I'm maintaining that the benefit provided to the MSS controller is the ability to choose which CC weapon is used by the affected model (if there is a choice) and any ability/penalty that weapon may have. The Force USR is an ability of the weapon. When the MSS controller chooses to use Force, they are not choosing to expend a charge and take a test. They are simply invoking Force. In the Force rules, the only way to successfully invoke (activate) Force is to spend a charge and test. That's the chain I'm suggested must be followed.

All of which is allowed because: MSS makes the MSS controller the controlling player for the affected model and MSS allows the MSS controller to benefit from any ability of the weapon. Benefit is a deliberately broad term.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They do so - and that benefit is allowing the psyker the choice

You still need some actual rule stating the psykers choice in the matter is overridden by the MSS player being able to make the choice. That srule is not within the MSS rule

It is actually all in the MSS rule. It's the whole point of the MSS rule. To strike with any weapon the affected model has and gain the benefit of any ability the weapon has.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yad - your concession is accepted.

At this point there's really no chance that either of us are going to agree with each other on this at this stage . So what's the point of this comment?

-Yad

Yad wrote:

I'm maintaining that the benefit provided to the MSS controller is the ability to choose which CC weapon is used by the affected model (if there is a choice) and any ability/penalty that weapon may have.

You do not have permission to choose abilities of the weapon. You benefit from abilities or penalties but are never given permission to make choices over these abilities

Yad wrote:
The Force USR is an ability of the weapon.

correct

Yad wrote:
When the MSS controller chooses to use Force,

Impossible. The MSS controller never has permission to CHOOSE to use any ability or penalty of the weapon, they are only given permission to CHOOSE what CCW to use.

Yad wrote:
they are not choosing to expend a charge and take a test. They are simply invoking Force. In the Force rules, the only way to successfully invoke (activate) Force is to spend a charge and test. That's the chain I'm suggested must be followed.

And, as usual, your chain is based on a faulty premise, same as it has been throughout these pages. Same as youve been told repeatedly now, but continually ignore.

Yad wrote:
All of which is allowed because: MSS makes the MSS controller the controlling player for the affected model

WRONG. A controlling player, not THE controlling player. Again, you ignore this.

Yad wrote:
and MSS allows the MSS controller to benefit from any ability of the weapon. Benefit is a deliberately broad term.

-Yad

Yes, you benefit from Force - the rule is still present. You have no permission to choose to activate it, as you are not THE controller of the model but A controller, and only for the specific elements required

Your continued ability to ignore this is telling.

Edit - Yad the point of the comment is that you have bene unable to present any rules evidence to support your contention that a) you are THE controlling player of the model nor b) that you have permission to make choices on behalf of the model for anything other than the CCW choice specifically stated in the rules. Your continued deflections on this, and rewriting of the actual rules in favour of your own made up interpretation that has no basis in written fact, means you have simply conceded that your argument has been disproven. Essentially, you still have no rules support for your contention, and refuse to provide any in the face of proof positive that you are wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:

I'm maintaining that the benefit provided to the MSS controller is the ability to choose which CC weapon is used by the affected model (if there is a choice) and any ability/penalty that weapon may have.

You do not have permission to choose abilities of the weapon. You benefit from abilities or penalties but are never given permission to make choices over these abilities

Partially agree. You do have permission to choose which weapon will be used by the affected model. You arbitrarily limiting the benefit you gain from any of the abilities by saying you can use those abilities if it requires a choice to be made. That I disagree with.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:
The Force USR is an ability of the weapon.

correct

Yad wrote:
When the MSS controller chooses to use Force,

Impossible. The MSS controller never has permission to CHOOSE to use any ability or penalty of the weapon, they are only given permission to CHOOSE what CCW to use.

Force requires that a choice be made to activate it. I'm pretty sure that's actually RAW. Score a number of unsaved wounds, choose to activate.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:
they are not choosing to expend a charge and take a test. They are simply invoking Force. In the Force rules, the only way to successfully invoke (activate) Force is to spend a charge and test. That's the chain I'm suggested must be followed.

And, as usual, your chain is based on a faulty premise, same as it has been throughout these pages. Same as youve been told repeatedly now, but continually ignore.

It's not possible for me to 'ignore' it as you claim as I believe you're the one getting it wrong (again).

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:
All of which is allowed because: MSS makes the MSS controller the controlling player for the affected model

WRONG. A controlling player, not THE controlling player. Again, you ignore this.

Capitalization doesn't make you more right Another arbitrary interpretation of the rules. There is only Controlling Player. You either are or are not. MSS makes you the controlling player for the affected model. You actions though are further restricted by the MSS rules for the duration it is in effect. At which point you return control back to the owning player.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:
and MSS allows the MSS controller to benefit from any ability of the weapon. Benefit is a deliberately broad term.

-Yad

Yes, you benefit from Force - the rule is still present. You have no permission to choose to activate it, as you are not THE controller of the model but A controller, and only for the specific elements required

Not quite. You benefit from any ability the weapon has. I missed the part in the BRB where it says that there can be two Controlling Players for a model. Can you point that out to me?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your continued ability to ignore this is telling.

Riiiight, what's a cubit?

-Yad

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:

I'm maintaining that the benefit provided to the MSS controller is the ability to choose which CC weapon is used by the affected model (if there is a choice) and any ability/penalty that weapon may have.

You do not have permission to choose abilities of the weapon. You benefit from abilities or penalties but are never given permission to make choices over these abilities

Partially agree. You do have permission to choose which weapon will be used by the affected model. You arbitrarily limiting the benefit you gain from any of the abilities by saying you can use those abilities if it requires a choice to be made. That I disagree with.

It is not arbitrary, it is based on actual rules, something you have an issue with.

The rules for MSS never give you any permission to make choices over abilities or penalties on weapons.

Given you partially disagree please provide a quotation from the MSS rule that gives you permission to make choices as regards abilities. You have bene unable to do that so far, despite being asked to

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:
When the MSS controller chooses to use Force,

Impossible. The MSS controller never has permission to CHOOSE to use any ability or penalty of the weapon, they are only given permission to CHOOSE what CCW to use.

Force requires that a choice be made to activate it. I'm pretty sure that's actually RAW. Score a number of unsaved wounds, choose to activate.

Again, please show permission is given to the MSS owner to make choices over abilities or penalties. As a consequence of your position Can you choose to not use penalties you dont like? Your argument (that somehow you can choose what abilities to use) requires this. Not a strawman, before you throw that tired inaccuracy out again. Or are you arbitrarily limiting your changing of rules?

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:
they are not choosing to expend a charge and take a test. They are simply invoking Force. In the Force rules, the only way to successfully invoke (activate) Force is to spend a charge and test. That's the chain I'm suggested must be followed.

And, as usual, your chain is based on a faulty premise, same as it has been throughout these pages. Same as youve been told repeatedly now, but continually ignore.

It's not possible for me to 'ignore' it as you claim as I believe you're the one getting it wrong (again).

You are ignoring the proof given, time and time again, that you are never given the choice you are making. At no point.

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:
All of which is allowed because: MSS makes the MSS controller the controlling player for the affected model

WRONG. A controlling player, not THE controlling player. Again, you ignore this.

Capitalization doesn't make you more right Another arbitrary interpretation of the rules. There is only Controlling Player. You either are or are not. MSS makes you the controlling player for the affected model. You actions though are further restricted by the MSS rules for the duration it is in effect. At which point you return control back to the owning player.

So if you are THE controlling player of, say, a crowe model - you are stating you can activate his power to remove models? After all, you are claiming you are "the" controlling player, and that no limits are given on the Control you have?

It isnt arbitrary when it is a written rule. Try again with your deflections. Your actions ARE restricted, meaning you cannot be "the" controlling player - by definition you cannot be. You are A controlling player because otherwise noone controls certain elements of the model, and there is no permission given for this to occur

This means that you have A controlling player subsumed in specific elements by another controlling player. They share control - EXACTLY as written.

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:
and MSS allows the MSS controller to benefit from any ability of the weapon. Benefit is a deliberately broad term.

-Yad

Yes, you benefit from Force - the rule is still present. You have no permission to choose to activate it, as you are not THE controller of the model but A controller, and only for the specific elements required

Not quite. You benefit from any ability the weapon has. I missed the part in the BRB where it says that there can be two Controlling Players for a model. Can you point that out to me?

So you blindly state something not relevant to the quote? Brilliant strategy there. I pointed out that you still benefit from it.

I didnt find the part in the MSS rules where it states the Owning Player is no longer the controlling player for those actions not proscribed to the MSS rules? Can you point out where the MSS rules state the Necorn player has total control over the model? Anything?

Advanced rule overrides basic, you are aware of that concept? The necron player is A controlling player for the specific actions given in the MSS rule. The owning player remains the controlling player for everything else. Again, a marvellously simple concept you seem to be having amazing difficulty with.

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your continued ability to ignore this is telling.

Riiiight, what's a cubit?

-Yad

Pathetic trolling, shock.

To sumamrise: given you have still been unable to show permission to make choices on the abilities (or penalties) of CCW on behalf of the owning player, you continued deflection and trolling has meant you concession is, once again, accepted.

No further "debate" will be entered into, however I will correct any further false statements you make.