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nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:

I'm maintaining that the benefit provided to the MSS controller is the ability to choose which CC weapon is used by the affected model (if there is a choice) and any ability/penalty that weapon may have.

You do not have permission to choose abilities of the weapon. You benefit from abilities or penalties but are never given permission to make choices over these abilities

Partially agree. You do have permission to choose which weapon will be used by the affected model. You arbitrarily limiting the benefit you gain from any of the abilities by saying you can use those abilities if it requires a choice to be made. That I disagree with.

It is not arbitrary, it is based on actual rules, something you have an issue with.

The rules for MSS never give you any permission to make choices over abilities or penalties on weapons.

Given you partially disagree please provide a quotation from the MSS rule that gives you permission to make choices as regards abilities. You have bene unable to do that so far, despite being asked to

Already been done. I can't take the blinders off you or help you with your tunnel vision. Unless the rules specifically defines how you benefit from any ability the weapon has, you follow the ability's rules in their entirety. Anything else seems to me to be an arbitrary restriction.


[

nosferatu1001 wrote:
quote=Yad 470619 4717170 null]

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Yad wrote:
When the MSS controller chooses to use Force,

Impossible. The MSS controller never has permission to CHOOSE to use any ability or penalty of the weapon, they are only given permission to CHOOSE what CCW to use.

Force requires that a choice be made to activate it. I'm pretty sure that's actually RAW. Score a number of unsaved wounds, choose to activate.

Again, please show permission is given to the MSS owner to make choices over abilities or penalties. As a consequence of your position Can you choose to not use penalties you dont like? Your argument (that somehow you can choose what abilities to use) requires this. Not a strawman, before you throw that tired inaccuracy out again. Or are you arbitrarily limiting your changing of rules?

Yad wrote:

Capitalization doesn't make you more right Another arbitrary interpretation of the rules. There is only Controlling Player. You either are or are not. MSS makes you the controlling player for the affected model. You actions though are further restricted by the MSS rules for the duration it is in effect. At which point you return control back to the owning player.
-Yad

So when my terminator librarian fails his MSS test, and hits himself, who rolls the saves?

Control is split, we have 2 controlling players. You're making the hits and wounds, but I'm still taking the saves.

-Matt

You have to take the best save possible. This is not optional or depend on the controlling player or affected by MSS.

Yad - since you have messed up the quotes, this is the easier way to do it - just focussing on where your fallacious argument begins and ends

"Sure, when it says that you must return control of the 'victim' (i.e., model) back to the owning player. The only way control can be returned is if you have it.
"

As has been pointed out to you repeatedly - Only if you ignore context. Again, you are defining "control" as having no qualifications attached to it, despite the contrary being true.

IN THE CONTEXT OF THE RULE the control returned is the limited control given to the MSS player - that of choosing which weapon to use

You are never given any other choices you can make

Your "blinkers" are that you are literally making up rules to suit your position. There is not a single instance in the MSS rules where the MSS player is given the ability to make choices on weapon abilities. Nowhere is this true, desptie your insistence - backed by absolutely no rules - otherwise

You are simply making up rules, time and time again. This seems to be a habit.

Copper - the controlling player is the one who rolls saves. So yes it does matter.

Yad wrote:Unless the rules specifically defines how you benefit from any ability the weapon has, you follow the ability's rules in their entirety.

And Force does so. You must cause unsaved wounds to become eligible to expend and test, and if you succeed, your weapon gains the ID USR.

MSS gives you permission to cause wounds, to which the controlling player (the owner) has to take his best save. If he fails, MSS now gets to activate Force. Doing so still has the expend/test requirement to which the controlling player (the owner) has to make. If the player (the owner) expends/tests successfully, the weapon has ID applied and the Unsaved Wounds are resolved with ID now.

Yad, your side still needs to prove that MSS grants you permission to choose within Special rules, or that MSS makes you the owner of the model for those last steps.
Since it does neither, you may not do either.
RAW, MSS does not give you ownership of the model for page eight. RAW, MSS does not trump page eight for the choice to expend/test within Force.

copper.talos wrote:
You have to take the best save possible. This is not optional or depend on the controlling player or affected by MSS.

And what happens if you have a 3+ armor save and 3+ invuln save and are hit with an AP4 weapon?

Who chooses what save to take?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

IN THE CONTEXT OF THE RULE the control returned is the limited control given to the MSS player - that of choosing which weapon to use

You are never given any other choices you can make

You've stated this a couple of times so it's clear you don't have the Codex or haven't read the entire rule. For the sake of this thread I'll quote it from the Necron Codex:

"These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs choose which, if there is a choice)."

Note that the entire quote including the part in parenthesis is from the codex. The part that says the controller of the MSS chooses which abilities and penalties to use if there is a choice flatly contradicts your assertion that you're never given any other choices but which weapon to use.

The MSS player never gains control of the enemy model in that exact sense. The GK player rolls saves. The MSS player chooses to active the weapon or not because it's an ability "before all blows in that round of combat have been struck".

So at every iniative step higher than the lowest one of that battle, the MSS controller gets to activate. RAW the MSS controller can't activate at the last init step of the combat since activation happens in response to unsaved wounds and "the victim returns to normal" after all blows have been struck.

Since all MSS will strike at I2, that means only GK swinging at I1 will not be forced to activate their weapons (if they are not able to spend all their warp charges before then anyway!) It's a bit extreme to follow RAW and have this weird change of play at the last init step. I wouldn't bother assuming RAI would be to play it the same at every init step, but of course if the GK player wanted it I'd allow MSS to be unable to activate at I1.

Dave, READ THE FAQ. Caps foe emphasis. You only get to choose which weapon to use.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

IN THE CONTEXT OF THE RULE the control returned is the limited control given to the MSS player - that of choosing which weapon to use

You are never given any other choices you can make

You've stated this a couple of times so it's clear you don't have the Codex or haven't read the entire rule. For the sake of this thread I'll quote it from the Necron Codex:

"These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs choose which, if there is a choice)."

Note that the entire quote including the part in parenthesis is from the codex. The part that says the controller of the MSS chooses which abilities and penalties to use if there is a choice flatly contradicts your assertion that you're never given any other choices but which weapon to use.

1) the Context makes it clear that "if there is a choice" is directly referring to "close combat weapons"

2) the FaQ says "and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice)"

So nosferatu1001's assertation of "choosing which weapon to use" is correct.

Page 81 Necron Codex, second paragraph for Mindshackle Scarabs replaced with 6th Edition FaQ wrote:
At the start of the Fight sub-phase, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck.

Happyjew wrote:
Dave, READ THE FAQ. Caps foe emphasis. You only get to choose which weapon to use.

"benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons "

It still says it benefits from abilities and penalties of the weapon. An ability of the force weapon is the ability to activate it by spending a warp charge.

If you want to go so far as to accept that the MSS player has "control" of the enemy model, then yes RAW means you would roll saves. I don't believe rolling saves for the enemy model is RAI however because MSS primarily concerned with the enemy models attacks.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

1) the Context makes it clear that "if there is a choice" is directly referring to "close combat weapons"

This I agree with.

 DeathReaper wrote:

2) the FaQ says "and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which weapon he uses, if there is a choice)"

So nosferatu1001's assertation of "choosing which weapon to use" is correct.

This is still wrong. Activation is an ability of force weapons. MSS allows you to benefit from from this ability by allowing you to activate it. If you can't activate the force weapon then you're not benefiting from the weapons abilities.

How do you activate a force weapon?

A Psyker expends a Warp Charge point.

Activation can not happen if there are no more Warp Charge points or the weapon is wielded by a non-psyker.

Therefore activation is not an ability of the weapon, but an ability of the payker by virtue of choosing to expend the Warp Charge point to activate the weapon.

The Force USR's ability is to give the psyker a choice to activate or to not activate, That is the question.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Activation can not happen if there are no more Warp Charge points or the weapon is wielded by a non-psyker.

Therefore activation is not an ability of the weapon, but an ability of the payker by virtue of choosing to expend the Warp Charge point to activate the weapon.

Your correlation = causation bit is flawed. The ability is one of/from the weapon, used as a psychic power - there is no use of Force without the Force weapon (which is why its listed as a rule for the weapon, not the psyker).

Grey Knight models are not psykers (per se) with force weapons, but their force weapons can be activated and used by units of them.

I have gone from "Of course not!" to "Oh, ok." to "Umm. . .maybe?" and around again a few times now - so feel free to ignore this.

 kirsanth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Activation can not happen if there are no more Warp Charge points or the weapon is wielded by a non-psyker.

Therefore activation is not an ability of the weapon, but an ability of the payker by virtue of choosing to expend the Warp Charge point to activate the weapon.

Your correlation = causation bit is flawed. The ability is one of/from the weapon, used as a psychic power - there is no use of Force without the Force weapon (which is why its listed as a rule for the weapon, not the psyker).

Grey Knight models are not psykers (per se) with force weapons, but their force weapons can be activated and used by units of them.

I have gone from "Of course not!" to "Oh, ok." to "Umm. . .maybe?" and around again a few times now - so feel free to ignore this.

Precisely what I would say.

Activation most definitely is an ability of the weapon. Spending a warp charge is a penalty for using it. Penalties are also covered by the MSS rule.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Dave, READ THE FAQ. Caps foe emphasis. You only get to choose which weapon to use.

"benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons "

It still says it benefits from abilities and penalties of the weapon. An ability of the force weapon is the ability to activate it by spending a warp charge.

If you want to go so far as to accept that the MSS player has "control" of the enemy model, then yes RAW means you would roll saves. I don't believe rolling saves for the enemy model is RAI however because MSS primarily concerned with the enemy models attacks.

So, no apology for you getting it wrong, again?

Find permission in the MSS rule to MAKE THE CHOICE to expend a warp token and to take a psychic test. Actual specific permission.

Oddly enough youve jumped in with nothing new, and still lacking any permission to do what youre claiming. The logic al leaping by the proForce side is something amazing to behold

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Dave, READ THE FAQ. Caps foe emphasis. You only get to choose which weapon to use.

"benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons "

It still says it benefits from abilities and penalties of the weapon. An ability of the force weapon is the ability to activate it by spending a warp charge.

If you want to go so far as to accept that the MSS player has "control" of the enemy model, then yes RAW means you would roll saves. I don't believe rolling saves for the enemy model is RAI however because MSS primarily concerned with the enemy models attacks.

So, no apology for you getting it wrong, again?

Find permission in the MSS rule to MAKE THE CHOICE to expend a warp token and to take a psychic test. Actual specific permission.

Oddly enough youve jumped in with nothing new, and still lacking any permission to do what youre claiming. The logic al leaping by the proForce side is something amazing to behold

No apology needed because the rule still works as I said.

You may benefit from the abilities of the light switch in the room. Does this mean you may not turn it on to light the room, and you are not allowed to pay the electricity bill?

The ability of force weapons is that you may choose to activate them. The penalty is paying a warp charge if you do activate them.

MSS gives permission when it says you benefit from the ability. The force weapons ability is that you may make a choice to activate it or not.

No, apology for the "you havent read the rule", despite quoting it a number of times this thread. It simply shows you havent botherd to read too closely, showing quite a fair amount of disrespect.

Again

Only the Controlling Player gets to choose what a model does and doesnt do, and you are NOT the controlling player when it comes to making that choice.

So, again, provide a rule givng you permission to be the Controlling Player for that choice, or concede. Yad has been untterly unable to do so, for about 10 pages now, so you may have better luck

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, apology for the "you havent read the rule", despite quoting it a number of times this thread. It simply shows you havent botherd to read too closely, showing quite a fair amount of disrespect.

Again

Only the Controlling Player gets to choose what a model does and doesnt do, and you are NOT the controlling player when it comes to making that choice.

So, again, provide a rule givng you permission to be the Controlling Player for that choice, or concede. Yad has been untterly unable to do so, for about 10 pages now, so you may have better luck

No such requirement exists.

The ability is not simply to activate the weapon, the ability allows you to choose. Choosing is inherently part of the ability. Benefiting from this ability bestows on you the choice. I'll give you a simple example:

ABILITY: You may choose to activate or not.

The ability does not require you to activate. If I benefit from this ability I simply get to choose. Perhaps it is beneficial for me to choose not to activate. In that case benefiting from this ability would mean choosing not to activate.

No control of the model needed. Better luck adding imaginary requirements to rules next time.

I suggest you read page 8, and what controlling player means

You are taking a logical leap as to what "benefit" means, and repeating the same erroneous argument that has carried on for 20 pages now.

You lack permission, full stop, to do what you want to do.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, apology for the "you havent read the rule", despite quoting it a number of times this thread. It simply shows you havent botherd to read too closely, showing quite a fair amount of disrespect.

Again

Only the Controlling Player gets to choose what a model does and doesnt do, and you are NOT the controlling player when it comes to making that choice.

So, again, provide a rule givng you permission to be the Controlling Player for that choice, or concede. Yad has been untterly unable to do so, for about 10 pages now, so you may have better luck

No such requirement exists.

The ability is not simply to activate the weapon, the ability allows you to choose. Choosing is inherently part of the ability. Benefiting from this ability bestows on you the choice. I'll give you a simple example:

ABILITY: You may choose to activate or not.

The ability does not require you to activate. If I benefit from this ability I simply get to choose. Perhaps it is beneficial for me to choose not to activate. In that case benefiting from this ability would mean choosing not to activate.

No control of the model needed. Better luck adding imaginary requirements to rules next time.

Actually, the Psyker gets to make the choice. However, it is assumed that the Controlling player gets to make any choices on behalf of the model, otherwise the game would consistently come to a stand-still, as we wait for inanimate objects make a decision or perform an action.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I suggest you read page 8, and what controlling player means

You are taking a logical leap as to what "benefit" means, and repeating the same erroneous argument that has carried on for 20 pages now.

You lack permission, full stop, to do what you want to do.

Currently if you do not activate the force weapon, did you benefit from that ability of the force weapon? No.

The rule not only gives permission, but requires the MSS hits to benefit from the ability.

These hits benefit from any abilities and penalties of his close combat weapons.

If the force weapon wasn't activated, did the hit benefit from the ability? No, you just broke the rule.
If the psyker didn't expend a remaining warp charge did the hit benefit from the ability? No, again you violated the MSS rule that says the hits benefit from the ability.

The only logical leap is you placing additional requirements that don't exist.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Activation can not happen if there are no more Warp Charge points or the weapon is wielded by a non-psyker.

Therefore activation is not an ability of the weapon, but an ability of the payker by virtue of choosing to expend the Warp Charge point to activate the weapon.

Your correlation = causation bit is flawed. The ability is one of/from the weapon, used as a psychic power - there is no use of Force without the Force weapon (which is why its listed as a rule for the weapon, not the psyker).

Grey Knight models are not psykers (per se) with force weapons, but their force weapons can be activated and used by units of them.

I have gone from "Of course not!" to "Oh, ok." to "Umm. . .maybe?" and around again a few times now - so feel free to ignore this.

Precisely what I would say.

Activation most definitely is an ability of the weapon. Spending a warp charge is a penalty for using it. Penalties are also covered by the MSS rule.

And how does one activate The Force USR?

A: By Spending a Warp Charge point.

Weapons do not have a Warp Charge point, so the activation of the weapon is not an ability of the weapon.

By that logic weapons do not (typically) themselves have an 'Attacks' statistic, so we cannot attack with them?

it's a bit of a stretch to say that the weapon itself has to have the warp charge point in order to offer a choice that one of them be spent.

 Neorealist wrote:
By that logic weapons do not (typically) themselves have an 'Attacks' statistic, so we cannot attack with them?

No, that is actually a perfect illustration of my point.

An attacks characteristic is not an ability of the weapon, but the ability of the wielder.

Neorealist wrote:it's a bit of a stretch to say that the weapon itself has to have the warp charge point in order to offer a choice that one of them be spent.

Not in this case, as the psyker expending a Warp Charge point is how you activate of the Force USR.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
By that logic weapons do not (typically) themselves have an 'Attacks' statistic, so we cannot attack with them?

No, that is actually a perfect illustration of my point.

An attacks characteristic is not an ability of the weapon, but the ability of the wielder.

Neorealist wrote:it's a bit of a stretch to say that the weapon itself has to have the warp charge point in order to offer a choice that one of them be spent.

Not in this case, as the psyker expending a Warp Charge point is how you activate of the Force USR.

So any psyker can spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon making it a force weapon? No. You activate the force weapon. The characteristic of the weapon lets you spend a warp charge.

Where under the Psyker rules does it say you can spend a warp charge to activate a force weapon?

Again - where is your specific allowance to force the psyker to spend a point and take the test, when as per page 8 that choice is up to the Controlling Player for those actions?

Hint: MSS player is never that controlling player

Also, you can only spend a warp charge if you are a psyker, as per the Force USR, meanning it is a property of the psyker and not of the weapon

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again - where is your specific allowance to force the psyker to spend a point and take the test, when as per page 8 that choice is up to the Controlling Player for those actions?

Hint: MSS player is never that controlling player

Also, you can only spend a warp charge if you are a psyker, as per the Force USR, meanning it is a property of the psyker and not of the weapon

Here you go again with requirements that are not there.

MSS says you benefit from abilities and penalties of the weapon. The choice to activate is an ability of a force weapon. Activating is is a benefit of force weapons. Spending a warp charge and taking a test are a penalties of activating the weapon.

MSS gives you a blanket allowance to use the abilities of the weapon against it's target.

If you don't allow the force weapon to activate when it could, you're not allowing the MSS player to benefit from the rule. The rule even says "control" is returned. How logically can you give someone back control if you never took it in the first place? Your interpretation of this rule makes no sense!

Hint: there is no requirement for MSS to specifically allow every combination of weapon abilities and whether or not you can benefit from each one no matter how they work. It says "You Benefit". The requirement is on you to show where MSS is specifically disallowed from using an ability of the weapon.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
So any psyker can spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon making it a force weapon? No. You activate the force weapon. The characteristic of the weapon lets you spend a warp charge.

Where under the Psyker rules does it say you can spend a warp charge to activate a force weapon?

The characteristic of the weapon lets the psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon.

Is spending a warp charge an ability of the weapon? (No, but the weapon does let a psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate the ability).

Ergo Force only gives the psyker a choice.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The choice to activate is an ability of a force weapon.

We are in agreement.

and you benefit from that choice, but the choice is still with the psykers controller as per P.8

Nemesor Dave wrote:Spending a warp charge and taking a test are a penalties of activating the weapon.

That is not correct. The weapon is activated by a psyker expending a Warp Charge point.

Spending the charge is not a penalty spending a charge is how you activate.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
So any psyker can spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon making it a force weapon? No. You activate the force weapon. The characteristic of the weapon lets you spend a warp charge.

Where under the Psyker rules does it say you can spend a warp charge to activate a force weapon?

The characteristic of the weapon lets the psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate their weapon.

Is spending a warp charge an ability of the weapon? (No, but the weapon does let a psyker spend a Warp Charge to activate the ability).

Ergo Force only gives the psyker a choice.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The choice to activate is an ability of a force weapon.

We are in agreement.

and you benefit from that choice, but the choice is still with the psykers controller as per P.8

Nemesor Dave wrote:Spending a warp charge and taking a test are a penalties of activating the weapon.

That is not correct. The weapon is activated by a psyker expending a Warp Charge point.

Spending the charge is not a penalty spending a charge is how you activate.

Exactly the way I see it.

Nothing in the MSS rule allows the necron to make the choice to activate a force weapon. The only thing the MSS forces is the use of the force weapon and the force rule does nothing without the psyker choosing activation.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again - where is your specific allowance to force the psyker to spend a point and take the test, when as per page 8 that choice is up to the Controlling Player for those actions?

Hint: MSS player is never that controlling player

Also, you can only spend a warp charge if you are a psyker, as per the Force USR, meanning it is a property of the psyker and not of the weapon

Here you go again with requirements that are not there.

Nope, here I go again requiring you to have permissionb to do something you wish to do, same as the rest of the rules. Shocking i know.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
MSS says you benefit from abilities and penalties of the weapon. The choice to activate is an ability of a force weapon. Activating is is a benefit of force weapons. Spending a warp charge and taking a test are a penalties of activating the weapon.

the choice to activate is the psykers, as the rules for Force tell you. You have read the rules for force, yes?

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Hint: there is no requirement for MSS to specifically allow every combination of weapon abilities and whether or not you can benefit from each one no matter how they work. It says "You Benefit". The requirement is on you to show where MSS is specifically disallowed from using an ability of the weapon.

Wrong, again. Hint: in a permissive ruleset you have to have permission to do anything. In this case you need permission to make the choice to spend the point and test instead of the psyker. You dont have that permisison

Try again

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, apology for the "you havent read the rule", despite quoting it a number of times this thread. It simply shows you havent botherd to read too closely, showing quite a fair amount of disrespect.

Again

Only the Controlling Player gets to choose what a model does and doesnt do, and you are NOT the controlling player when it comes to making that choice.

So, again, provide a rule givng you permission to be the Controlling Player for that choice, or concede. Yad has been untterly unable to do so, for about 10 pages now, so you may have better luck

Seems to me the disrespect is coming from telling people they are spouting gak instead of constructively arguing your point.
You would do better to stop belittling people and just arguing the point instead of coming across as rather rude a self opinionated

To the point at hand both sides have valid points, at the moment what you do re the issue is best left to roll offs of prior game agreements, until there is if ever an FAQ on this point