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Ok, lets address your 'argument' for a moment:

A = ignore any/all shooting rules
B = 'any'
C = 'all'

I'm saying B = C.

You are saying that A = B, and asking me to prove that A = C as well otherwise you claim my argument is invalid. No thanks, i'm not having any of that. If you feel my use of the word 'any' is wrong, that is fine; but please argue from a perspective that includes MSS rather than some rule i've never heard of and that is not relevant to MSS in any case.

Theres only two ways for MSS to activate Force completely.

Become the owner of the model (MSS gets close, but doesnt actually state that you become the owner of the model for the defined period that MSS works).

Allow MSS to make choices with Special rules (again, it gets close, but only choice that it gives the Necron player is weapons if there are multiple choices).

To help the MSS folks out, with the argument that they must overcome currently; Ill present this to you in the forms of questions:

Where does it state in the rule for MSS that you become the owner of the model in order to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player?

Where does it state in rule for MSS that it -specifically- gives you full authority to govern choices beyond weapon selection in order to trump the Force USR?



If the Pro-side can answer either of these questions with the MSS rule using proper English, we can continue the debate. As it stands currently, the MSS rule is not able to dictate the choice to expend/test and thats the current argument that needs to be met, or the debate is over and MSS does not allow for a weapon with Force to get to the ID USR without the Psyker choosing to expend and test as Force calls out for.

Xzerios wrote:
To help the MSS folks out, with the argument that they must overcome currently; Ill present this to you in the forms of questions:

Where does it state in the rule for MSS that you become the owner of the model in order to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player?

Where does it state in rule for MSS that it -specifically- gives you full authority to govern choices beyond weapon selection in order to trump the Force USR?

If the Pro-side can answer either of these questions with the MSS rule using proper English, we can continue the debate. As it stands currently, the MSS rule is not able to dictate the choice to expend/test and thats the current argument that needs to be met, or the debate is over and MSS does not allow for a weapon with Force to get to the ID USR without the Psyker choosing to expend and test as Force calls out for.

Alrighty.

Question 1: The Controller of the MSS must become the Controlling Player (at least in some fashion) in order for that control to be returned as per: "...the victim returns to the owning player's control once all blows..." to make any sense. That control only extends to the options listed in the MSS writeup granted, but it is nevertheless present and accounted for.

Question 2: It doesn't. You do not need 'full authority' (whatever that is in this context) in order for it to be necessary that some choices be made in a certain fashion; so that you can be said to have access to 'any' of the benefits of the force weapon.

'In some fashion' is not enough to trump that rule. You need to be given full permission to the model and that is something that MSS does not do. Without full permission, you dont trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player with the Codex.

Without MSS stating permission to make choices within Special rules specifically, you are unable to trump the Force USR with the Codex.

So in a very-specific way, the controller of the MSS becomes the Controlling Player of the MSS-ed model until control is returned to the Owning player at the end of the assault round. (as per the definition of 'Controlling Player' as found on page 8 and overrulled by the MSS rules-text)

For the purposes of choosing the weapon, the Necron player is explicitly and undeniably the Controlling Player. Furthermore, that weapon 'must' be said to benefit from any of the abilities and penalties it possesses and no distinction is made between active (ie: requiring a choice) and passive (ie: automatic) abilities.

With me so far?

Now, with the above in mind; please show me a rule that says a model can have more than one 'Controlling Player' at any given time for any reason.

 Neorealist wrote:
For the purposes of choosing the weapon, the Necron player is explicitly and undeniably the Controlling Player. Furthermore, that weapon 'must' be said to benefit from any of the abilities and penalties it possesses...

It possesses, The weapon is what it is referring to.

Q: How do you activate a force weapon?


Is expending a Warp Charge point an ability of the weapon?

Please, tell us what is controlled that must be returned?


Those items do not make you the model owner. Again, you think that due in part to the end of the rule of MSS that you were given full control of the model when you have not been given full control of the model. This is the point that the Pro-MSS have been unable to overcome.

The MSS gives you permission to choose weapons, you gain the properties of said weapons you choose as well. In this case, Force is on the weapon. You are still bound by what the rule states you must do. A choice comes up for the Pyker model (controlled in specific ways with MSS) to either expend a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test. If they have no point are choose not to expend, they may not take the test. Since MSS does not give you control of the choices within rules (only access to them) and this specific rule calls for something that you are not given permission by MSS to do, you may not make that decision.


Again, two ways for MSS to beat the Force USR, but it is unable to do so with its current wording of the rule. I suspect that it will be fixed (possibly) on the next FaQ round as it does seem like slight oversight on GWs part. Then again, Force is written differently than most USRs that apply to weapons so you never know.

I've answered that one before, but i'll gladly do so again:

the Force USR is an ability of the weapon.

The Force USR requires the psyker to spend a warp charge and pass a psychic test if the choice is made to activate the weapon. It cannot otherwise be said to be 'activated' if that choice is not made.

Xzerios wrote:you were given full control of the model

: Please do not tell me what it is I am saying. i was very clear in limiting what specific control i am claiming MSS grants, and i except you to respond to my posts with that in mind, rather simply ignoring my responses in favour of your own views on what you 'think' i am saying.

 Neorealist wrote:
I've answered that one before, but i'll gladly do so again:

the Force USR is an ability of the weapon.

The Force USR requires the psyker to choose to spend a warp charge and pass a psychic test if the choice is made to activate the weapon. It cannot otherwise be said to be 'activated' if that choice is not made.

You keep forgetting the colored portion. That is what the rule tells you to do sir.

 Neorealist wrote:
So in a very-specific way, the controller of the MSS becomes the Controlling Player of the MSS-ed model until control is returned to the Owning player at the end of the assault round. (as per the definition of 'Controlling Player' as found on page 8 and overrulled by the MSS rules-text)

For the purposes of choosing the weapon, the Necron player is explicitly and undeniably the Controlling Player. Furthermore, that weapon 'must' be said to benefit from any of the abilities and penalties it possesses and no distinction is made between active (ie: requiring a choice) and passive (ie: automatic) abilities.

With me so far?

Now, with the above in mind; please show me a rule that says a model can have more than one 'Controlling Player' at any given time for any reason.

Ah, so now youre back to claiming, like YAd did for a whiule, that you can only have one controlling player at any one time?

Doesnt matter if you cannot have more than one, for this purpose - you are NOT the controlling player for every purpose, therefore you STILL Cannot choose to expend a token. If your contention there is only one controlling player at any one time, then noone is able to choose to expend a warp token, as that isnt your choice to make according to MSS

Again: your supposition that to benefit from abilities isto be able to make choices on behalf of the player. Except the ability to choice is explicitly given, and explicitly restricted to only CCW. Your suypposition is a huge logical leap that ignores the rules presented in the given text

Again: find permission to CHOOSE anything other than the CCW you can use, and you will have the proof you need. Until then the Controlling Player restriction remains, and you cannot choose to expend a warp token

 Neorealist wrote:
I've answered that one before, but i'll gladly do so again:

the Force USR is an ability of the weapon.

Correct.

 Neorealist wrote:
The Force USR requires the psyker to choose to spend a warp charge and pass a psychic test if the choice is made to activate the weapon. It cannot otherwise be said to be 'activated' if that choice is not made.

Xerios has it correct.

Xzerios wrote:
You keep forgetting the colored portion. That is what the rule tells you to do sir.

Do you have rules quotes that say what you claim?

We claim that P.37 says "[the psyker] can immediately choose to activate [the force weapon] by expending a Warp Charge point..."

It says "he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point..." but as I have noted above he and it refer to psyker and force weapon

As Force reads within the English language:

A weapon thats wielded by a Psyker model that inflicts one or more Unsaved Wounds with this weapon can choose to expend a Warp Charge point and take a Psychic test. If the test is passed, the Unsaved Wounds caused by the weapon with Force now have the Instant Death USR applied to them.





Most other USRs that are weapon-type USRs dont have a similar wording. They typically read out to something more like this

A weapon with Fleshbane always wounds on a 2+. This rule has no effect on Vehicle units.
Or
A weapon with Poisoned always wounds on a X+, check your Codex' Wargear section to find out the value for X. If the weapon or model that has this weapon's Strength is equal to or higher than the defending model, you must re-roll failed To Wound rolls.



Force is a weapon-type USR that does not function in the same fashion as most other weapon-type USRs. Skyfire is also very similar in this regard as it too calls for a choice to be made within the rule itself. Its this written in choice that MSS doesnt get to control as MSS just assumes the Special rules for those CCWs are innately on like Fleshbane, Armorbane, or even Poisoned.

Xzerios wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
I've answered that one before, but i'll gladly do so again:

the Force USR is an ability of the weapon.

The Force USR requires the psyker to choose to spend a warp charge and pass a psychic test if the choice is made to activate the weapon. It cannot otherwise be said to be 'activated' if that choice is not made.

You keep forgetting the colored portion. That is what the rule tells you to do sir.

You're both a bit off here actually. The rules don't require you to choose to spend a charge. The actual rule has been quoted previously, and it certainly doesn't say what you mean it to say in your quote. The Force USR allows the psyker to choose to activate it (Force) by spending a charge and taking a test. During the normal course of play, should the psyker score a number of unsaved wounds, the psyker can choose to activate Force. If they so choose, they must then spend a charge and take a psychic test. If you were to map this out in a flow chart, the first box would be [Psker with Force Weapon scores unsaved wound(s)]. Next would be a decision box [Activate Force]. A Yes path would go to an action box [spend charge, take psychic test]. A no path would likely lead to the next step(s) in the fight sub-phase (depending on initiative.

This talk of the psyker getting a choice in whether or not he can spend a charge is just not possible.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other words, the Force USR does not allow you to decouple the spending of a charge and taking of a psychic test from the decision to activate Force.

You must be able to demonstrate that you can avoid spending the charge point and taking a test when the decision has been made to activate Force. Where in the Force rule does it allow you to do so?

Point of order: Xzerios added the blue text to my quote, my original comment was the non-blue part.

I've been of the opinion that if the force USR is activated then warp charge expenditure and psychic test are mandatory; and that the only choice (normally) is wether or not to activate it to begin with.

You're both a bit off here actually. The rules don't require you to choose to spend a charge. The actual rule has been quoted previously, and it certainly doesn't say what you mean it to say in your quote. The Force USR allows the psyker to choose to activate it (Force) by spending a charge and taking a test. -yad

...

 Neorealist wrote:
Point of order: Xzerios added the blue text to my quote, my original comment was the non-blue part.

I've been of the opinion that if the force USR is activated then warp charge expenditure and psychic test are mandatory; and that the only choice (normally) is wether or not to activate it to begin with.

So what you are saying is that the Psyker must choose to activate the force rule, which due to the constraints of MSS you have no ability to make that decision. Or in other words you benefit from the weapon having the force rule, but you cannot activate it, because force MUST be activated by the Psyker. Which as noted before you have limited control, to the tune of which CCW to choose if there is multiple. Futhermore, you must be able to cite where, as the MSS player where a choice can be made beyond which weapon to use.

If I remember correctly, MSS states you get all benefits and draw backs of the weapons (para-phrasing). So the benefit of a force weapon is the special rule, which you try to activate, but the drawback is you must spend a warp charge point to due so. Not that the opposing player must spend a warp charge point to benefit you seeings how you have no control of what the model must due beyond choosing which weapon to use and where the attacks go.

Yad wrote:In other words, the Force USR does not allow you to decouple the spending of a charge and taking of a psychic test from the decision to activate Force.

You must be able to demonstrate that you can avoid spending the charge point and taking a test when the decision has been made to activate Force. Where in the Force rule does it allow you to do so?

You are correct, you may not test without expending first. Thats what Force tells us to do. You are still missing the point the against side has brought to your door.

Where does it state in the rule for MSS that you become the owner of the model in order to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player?

Where does it state in rule for MSS that it -specifically- gives you full authority to govern choices beyond weapon selection in order to trump the Force USR?
You still need to account for these Yad.

I am getting kind of tired of the phrase (and similar varients of) "So what you are saying is..." as it's inevitably been followed with a post only tangically related to my own about something that 'isn't' what i've been saying at all.

this is what i am saying regarding how the force USR specifically works:

Neorealist, member of the redundant department of redundancy wrote: Precondition: Unsaved Wound (Yes/No)?

(Yes)
Choice: Activate Weapon (Yes2/No)?

(Yes2)
Mandatory Action: Spend a Warp Charge if available. (if unavailable, go to No)
Mandatory Action: Take Psychic Test (if failed, go to No, if Perils, follow rules for such)
(if passed 'and' warp charge spent, go to Yes3)

(No)
Result: Do Nothing.

(Yes3)
Result: Activate Instant Death

this is what i am saying regarding MSS in general:

Neorealist, master of very little of what he surveys wrote:
My particular theory regarding this is that the psyker's controlling player 'has' to choose to activate the force weapon in order for the MSSs' controlling player to be considered to have access to any of the benefits and penalties of the weapon. (specifically, the 'instant death' benefit).

I may not be right. I may not be wrong. But by the Maker, if you are saying that I am saying something? Quote me DIRECTLY.

Neorealist wrote:(Yes)
Choice: Activate Weapon (Yes2/No)?

Please see the Cyan and Red questions. This is the portion you do not have control over. MSS does not allow you to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player -or- Force USR


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your side is still unable to prove the demerit of the choice thats worded within the rule itself. Look! You guys are unable to phrase the statement without this choice yourselves! Why might that be? Because your brain still interprets this choice, you are still overlooking the fact that MSS does NOT allow you permission to govern this choice and it even has two ways to beat it. Yet it is unable to do so as written.

*sigh* I'm well aware there is a choice there. I'm just of the opinion that the Owning Player has to choose to activate the weapon in order for the (temporary) Controlling Player to be considered to be benefiting from 'all' of the weapons abilities and penalties.

How do they choose to activate the weapon? Note, choices by definition have multiple answers. :3


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All MSS can do currently is force the choice, if the owner says no, the Necron player is just SoL at that point.

Well i presume some incantation featuring 'Sight-Beyond-Sight' or the 'Power of Greyskull' is invoked...

Seriously, are you asking me how a player can choose to activate the force property of a weapon...?

Here, Ill answer for you.

By choosing to either expend and test as the rule calls for, or not and thats the end of the rule.

Xzerios wrote:

Neorealist wrote:(Yes)
Choice: Activate Weapon (Yes2/No)?

Please see the Cyan and Red questions. This is the portion you do not have control over. MSS does not allow you to trump Controlling Player Vs Opposing Player -or- Force USR


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your side is still unable to prove the demerit of the choice thats worded within the rule itself. Look! You guys are unable to phrase the statement without this choice yourselves! Why might that be? Because your brain still interprets this choice, you are still overlooking the fact that MSS does NOT allow you permission to govern this choice and it even has two ways to beat it. Yet it is unable to do so as written.

Can you explain then how the MSS controller benefits from Force ability of the weapon. As the MSS rule says, you benefit from any ability... Following your interpretation, there is no way to benefit from the Force USR. There is no stated exception to the 'benefit' provided by the rule. You get to choose the weapon and you (the MSS controller) get to benefit from any ability the weapon has. As benefit itself is not a formally defined in gaming term/mechanic you ought to take it at its word. If you deny the MSS controller the ability to utilize Force, he is not benefiting from it.

I'm not sure where your getting this issue about choice from. I've always maintained that the MSS player has nothing to do with the spending of the charge and taking a test. They do have the ability to choose to activate force. The bearer of the weapon is then forced to follows the rules for the Force USR.

MSS does provide control of the affected model. Folks that are stating that MSS returns control (of only those 'objects') are adding words to the MSS rule. If you think there's a contextual argument to be made, I would suggest you're just plain wrong It doesn't say that. The control it's referencing is perfectly in line with the concept of Controlling Player as outlined on pg.8.

-Yad

Yad wrote:
Can you explain then how the MSS controller benefits from Force ability of the weapon

How does a non-psyker wielding a Force weapon benefit from the the Force ability of the weapon? Answer that, and you will answer your own question.

It's the victim-psyker that's weilding the force weapon. The hits that must benefit from the force ability are from the victim-psyker...

Guys, it's been 23 pages of the same argument with nothing new. "Cannot, can to, cannot, can to....."

If in a tournament, check with the TO.

In casual games, just dice off.

At this point, no one is willing to give on their interpretations so let's "agree to disagree" and move on.

And, as pointed out, you have benefited from Force - same as when a nonpsyker wields it.

Happyjew wrote:

Yad wrote:
Can you explain then how the MSS controller benefits from Force ability of the weapon

How does a non-psyker wielding a Force weapon benefit from the the Force ability of the weapon? Answer that, and you will answer your own question.

The same way a GK Dreadnaughts does.

Which is mastery one for the purposes of psychic tests, and this invokes a psychic test. Or have you missed that part of the rule?