Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You are welcome to read over the numerous posts I've made attempting to explain my point, my reasoning, and my opinions. You are even welcome to consider why I see things that way, to the limited degree that I've explained that I do, but you are not welcome to dismiss everything I've said without demonstrating even any attempt to understand or respond to what I've said. You've made your point, it's not supported by the evidence, mine is. I'm not even going to bother to give you more consideration than that. I mean, I was working with you, but you said, "I'm a little perplexed by a worldview that magically makes something objectified simply by making it female." which is a stupid red herring since I think my first post on this topic listed 3 women who were awesome examples of sci-fi women fighters.

It's not a red herring at all, since none of the female characters you listed were models, which are literally objects. I can clearly appreciate Starbuck as a person (albeit fictional). I cannot appreciate my heavy bolter Sister as a person. I cannot judge her actions, or dismiss her humanity by ignoring it in favor of her sexual attributes. We are literally talking about nothing but appearance here -and to talk about models presented in clothing that is no more (and really, far less) revealing than the usual garb of modern women as very sexualized and encouraging objectification starts to veer dangerously close to some kind of passive aggressive attack on the choices of a large number of women. One can note that all the characters you noted admiring are also known for a fairly reserved, practical approach to fashion. SoB are more ornate, but that is not a bad thing. Nor is it a sex thing.

The only fact in this conversation that has anything to do with your point is that SoB have larger than average breasts, assuming their armor is fitted - fair enough. I assume that is because at the models scale they exaggerated pretty much all human features to make them visible. Ypu assume they were enlarged for more prurient interests. Well, that's certainly an option. I don't think that fact, standing alone, is enough to damn the range of models.

I'm not sure where you feel you have worked with me, since as far as I know this is the first direct interaction we have had at all. Nor where I dismiss everything, or indeed anything, you have said. I said you seem to be using a system of judging models which I find peculiar.

In my experience, the only guys who have complained about this had no experience with women and were fully engaged in all out white knighting against any supposed criticism or teasing directed at women.

That's a pretty base personal attack.

not really ( BAM! DISCUSSION ENDED)

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) wieght matters not in space.

Eh, weight doesn't matter, but mass certainly does.

Holy crap, that's right. The mass from the materials would impact how fast the ship would be able to maneuver, as acceleration = force/mass.

Yes, and thats why 40k ships take time to turn in space. If a ship turns to fast it may suffer damage. Moving at relativistic speeds will do that to you.

This was labeled as "Greek Female Armour".



Sorry it's huge.

that armour was probably not worn by a woman as no society in greece let their women go to battle. men ( regrettably) can get boob looking things if their is fat over their muscle and this is probably an example of that

 Somedude593 wrote:
that armour was probably not worn by a woman as no society in greece let their women go to battle. men ( regrettably) can get boob looking things if their is fat over their muscle and this is probably an example of that

Amazons.

.... i dont even know how to respond to that

Well in truth the Amazons lived on the eastern side of the Black Sea, closer to the Caspian Sea... I'm not sure if that area would be concidered Greece in the ancient world.

Most of my ancient maps are of the Khan territories and I have a nice pre-Reagan Germany. Nothing much of Greeks and Romans.

 Somedude593 wrote:
that armour was probably not worn by a woman as no society in greece let their women go to battle. men ( regrettably) can get boob looking things if their is fat over their muscle and this is probably an example of that

It might well have been worn by a culture near the greeks - certain Celtic and Illyrian cultures seem to have occasionally allowed women on the battlefield, and the Scythians seem to have had women take the field pretty routinely, in full armor and all. I'm pretty sure if anything inspired the tales of Amazons, it was probably Scythian or Sarmation women warriors - but no one has found anything like the Amazons as described by the Greeks.

Why doesn't someone make a poll? My two cents, people really like the boob plates. DakkaDakka's been talking about it for over six pages now.

<==

On the first page someone mentioned actual armor for women showing... for lack of a better term... "boob plates" or the equivolent. Now I imagine that they'd need some room for breasts, but I'd truly be interested in seeing what armor the poster was referring too. (Sorry, it's 1 in the morning and I'm feeling particularly lazy, so I don't remember who posted it).

 variable wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
In my experience, the only guys who have complained about this had no experience with women and were fully engaged in all out white knighting against any supposed criticism or teasing directed at women.

That's a pretty base personal attack.

No. It's an observation. Now, I don't know a huge number of people that applies to, but that's what I've observed.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The problem is that the way the SoB power armor is not designed for a standard view. It was built in that matter because of whole "Men under arms" Issue they have that the Church cannot have a standard army.

By showing that the SoB, the militant wing of the church is feminine and full female, it allows for them to continue to exploit that loophole.

Thats a good point. I dont know if its entirely necesary to have breasts on the breast plate, but it is important to remember that the SoB is trying to distinguish themselves from the Adeptus Astartes. If anything needs to be re-envisioned its how smart it is/isnt to wear high heels in a roiling combat.

That being said, the femme fatale is an important archtype. Women gamers also want thesuper cool sexy chic model. Trust me, im married to one.

RedAngel wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The problem is that the way the SoB power armor is not designed for a standard view. It was built in that matter because of whole "Men under arms" Issue they have that the Church cannot have a standard army.

By showing that the SoB, the militant wing of the church is feminine and full female, it allows for them to continue to exploit that loophole.

Thats a good point. I dont know if its entirely necesary to have breasts on the breast plate, but it is important to remember that the SoB is trying to distinguish themselves from the Adeptus Astartes. If anything needs to be re-envisioned its how smart it is/isnt to wear high heels in a roiling combat.

That being said, the femme fatale is an important archtype. Women gamers also want thesuper cool sexy chic model. Trust me, im married to one.

I would just like to point out that the SoB don't actually wear high heels into battle.
That belief comes from an old picture of an SoB from 2nd edition; the models themselves don't have high heels.
Everything else is fine.

The new plastic sisters will have ever so slight high heels just to mess with people. watch.

 IcedAnimals wrote:
The new plastic sisters will have ever so slight high heels just to mess with people. watch.

Don't be silly.

There'll never be plastic sisters!

 Kaldor wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is absurd to claim that nuns that wear corsets as an armour are not sexualised. I do not think it is a bad thing, but denying it is silly.

They're fully enclosing ceramite breastplates. Calling it a corset is about as valid as calling a Marine breastplate a corset, or calling the chest armour on a Cadian a bra.

You are getting confused between what material its made out of, vs what it is.

Its a ceramite corset plain and simple. The designer is fully aware of that, infact im pretty sure thats why they designed such aesthetics.
See pic? that is an armored corset. It does not matter if its made out of linen or metal or jello, its an aesthetic style designed for the armor.

Any more doubts?

Yep.

And this



is a bra.

I think the whole discussion is silly.

I like the sisters. I think they are badass just the way they are. I like that they embrace, rather than try to push away, that they are women.

I even like the repentia. "Oh noes, breasts, objectification!"
Push off! I love the idea of badass women not giving a sh*t that their titties are hanging out, they only care about cleaving your head in two.

It has nothing to do with objectification. I see them as female Ramboes. They're not prude little girls. They are women laying down the law.



OH NOES, AVERT THINE EYES, IT IS NUDITY IN FULL!

 Kaldor wrote:
Yep.

And this



is a bra.

You are hopeless I give up.

For various reasons mentioned earlier in the thread - keep them as is.

plus no-one talking about Howling Banshee Aspect Armour or some of the older guadian armour - Eldar have breasts too?

There is some good depicitions of Sycthian female warriors (or Sakje) in the novels here:

http://www.hippeis.com/tyrantseries.html
http://www.hippeis.com/srayanka.html

I think many of the haters here are blowing things out of proportion. If you really want to see sexualized women in miniature gaming, check Hasslefree, Ragingheroes or Sword-melusines from Maelstrom:

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?p=930

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?tag=bnl-028

Those are oversexualized models.

SoB are not that.

 Alkasyn wrote:
I think many of the haters here are blowing things out of proportion. If you really want to see sexualized women in miniature gaming, check Hasslefree, Ragingheroes or Sword-melusines from Maelstrom:

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?p=930

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?tag=bnl-028

Those are oversexualized models.

SoB are not that.

haha, oh wow.
That open vulva.

That there are way more sexualised models, doesn't mean SoB are not at all sexualised. Not that I think that this is a problem.

 Alkasyn wrote:
I think many of the haters here are blowing things out of proportion. If you really want to see sexualized women in miniature gaming, check Hasslefree, Ragingheroes or Sword-melusines from Maelstrom:

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?p=930

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?tag=bnl-028

Those are oversexualized models.

SoB are not that.

Da fuq did I just see...people actually buy that?
She must have excellent reflexes and impenetrable skin.

You see people, that is an example of bad cheesecake.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Da fuq did I just see...people actually buy that?
She must have excellent reflexes and impenetrable skin.

To be fair, she fits right in with a setting like Conan. Or even D&D (-> Priestesses of Eilistraee).
Imho, things like these always need to be seen in comparison to the (fictional) culture they exist in. There can be instances where they are almost expected.

Naked men and women in Conan: Fine.
Naked men and women in LotR: Silly.
and likewise
Boob plates in 40k: Fine.
Boob plates in Star Wars: Silly.

 Alkasyn wrote:
I think many of the haters here are blowing things out of proportion. If you really want to see sexualized women in miniature gaming, check Hasslefree, Ragingheroes or Sword-melusines from Maelstrom:

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?p=930

http://banelegions.maelstromgames.co.uk/?tag=bnl-028

Those are oversexualized models.

SoB are not that.

....I feel like stuff like that is why people seriously judge this hobby

 LunaHound wrote:
Here is the question, why is everyone so worked up about the armor, and especially the chest part?

Why not get worked up on the thigh and leg armor too?
oh and the gauntlet as well?

Or their highly impractical and pretty stupid looking high-heeled boots for heaven's sake??

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 LunaHound wrote:
Here is the question, why is everyone so worked up about the armor, and especially the chest part?

Why not get worked up on the thigh and leg armor too?
oh and the gauntlet as well?

Or their highly impractical and pretty stupid looking high-heeled boots for heaven's sake??

Skriker

Gaah why doesn't anyone just look at the models for ffs!
There.Are.No.High.Heeled.Boots.
We've been over this about 3 times already; the only case of high heeled boots on the SoB was on an old art piece by Blanche from second edition.