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 Lynata wrote:

Pouncey wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/470752.page#4668252
That don't look like no Space Marine I ever saw.

Oh, I thought you were referring to OP's pic.
With the linked example, I'm simply going to say that it will be notably less apparent on a 28mm-scale miniature. Also, the point kind of gets lost. If the armour doesn't yell "I'm a girl rawr!" then it may as well be completely androgynous. The former is, I think, an important aspect not only of the Sisters' whole appearance but also 40k's "gothic" style in general. Stuff has to be exaggerated. The grander, the better. Just look at their architecture!

Heh, it's alright. And yeah, I can see how the detail would be less recognizable on an inch-tall miniature than an image on a computer screen.

Enh, I don't have any issue with the boob plate as it is now on the Sisters models.

 Skriker wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
And there's the little fact that the previous Faith system was unique while the new one isn't.

It also wasn't entirely clear and often very confusing to opponents playing against it. The new system is easier to play and easier to face and understand. With the Witchhunters book I remember watching a friend play his sisters regularly and *every* battle *every* time he used an act of faith he had to explain it to the other side and make it clear how it worked. Some required a higher roll. Others required a lower roll. It was always confusing for his opponents because of this. Now the powers all work in a similar way.

Skriker

The old system was not complicated or overly complex by any stretch of the imagination. People being unfamiliar with the rules or not paying attention does not justify dumbing the game down.

 Amaya wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
And there's the little fact that the previous Faith system was unique while the new one isn't.

It also wasn't entirely clear and often very confusing to opponents playing against it. The new system is easier to play and easier to face and understand. With the Witchhunters book I remember watching a friend play his sisters regularly and *every* battle *every* time he used an act of faith he had to explain it to the other side and make it clear how it worked. Some required a higher roll. Others required a lower roll. It was always confusing for his opponents because of this. Now the powers all work in a similar way.

Skriker

The old system was not complicated or overly complex by any stretch of the imagination. People being unfamiliar with the rules or not paying attention does not justify dumbing the game down.

I didn't say it was overly complex or crazy complicated, just that in my experience every time I saw them being used on the table they were *confusing*. Why wouldn't you want to fix a mechanic that confuses players when it is used on the table? Imagine an army with some models with saving throws needing high numbers to save and others needing low numbers to save. It would confuse the heck out of you, unless you played the army yourself and often. That is what was happening here. It is one thing to be congnizant and understand the rules in another codex, but another entirely to be completely fully versed in a list you never have played and don't have the book for. The goal for playing shouldn't require you to have every army's rulebook to be able to play the game effectively and know your opponent isn't trying to pull a fast one. I played some games with my own witchhunters forces as well and sometimes, even knowing the rules I can't say I didn't think it sounded bogus the way I was describing the faith point powers. "Yeah this time I needed to roll higher than my target. Last time I needed to roll lower." Yeah...it just sounds questionable and I understand why it bothered other players and confused them.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
And there's the little fact that the previous Faith system was unique while the new one isn't.

It also wasn't entirely clear and often very confusing to opponents playing against it. The new system is easier to play and easier to face and understand. With the Witchhunters book I remember watching a friend play his sisters regularly and *every* battle *every* time he used an act of faith he had to explain it to the other side and make it clear how it worked. Some required a higher roll. Others required a lower roll. It was always confusing for his opponents because of this. Now the powers all work in a similar way.

Skriker

The old system was not complicated or overly complex by any stretch of the imagination. People being unfamiliar with the rules or not paying attention does not justify dumbing the game down.

I didn't say it was overly complex or crazy complicated, just that in my experience every time I saw them being used on the table they were *confusing*. Why wouldn't you want to fix a mechanic that confuses players when it is used on the table? Imagine an army with some models with saving throws needing high numbers to save and others needing low numbers to save. It would confuse the heck out of you, unless you played the army yourself and often. That is what was happening here. It is one thing to be congnizant and understand the rules in another codex, but another entirely to be completely fully versed in a list you never have played and don't have the book for. The goal for playing shouldn't require you to have every army's rulebook to be able to play the game effectively and know your opponent isn't trying to pull a fast one. I played some games with my own witchhunters forces as well and sometimes, even knowing the rules I can't say I didn't think it sounded bogus the way I was describing the faith point powers. "Yeah this time I needed to roll higher than my target. Last time I needed to roll lower." Yeah...it just sounds questionable and I understand why it bothered other players and confused them.

Skriker

I heartily agree Skriker, this isn't dumbing down the game but streamlining it so it moves in a flowing manor. Sure thats how the game should be? Flowing! Witchhunters was an awefull codex, which is why it was shelved. the SoB focuses on the sisters finally again, and streamlining the acts of faith was a good move by GW, it not only makes them easier to use, but faster, which is something they needed as try playing with sisters in a 6V6 people apocalypse game under the witchhunters codex, it was a nightmare and slowed the game down stupidly.

One thing that the change from 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed did very, very well for Dungeons & Dragons was to make the math all go in the same direction. A "plus" to something is now always a good thing, a "minus" is always a bad thing. In 1st and 2nd Ed, however, this was not the case. You would want a "plus" on your to-hit roll, but a minus to your THAC0 was better. If you had to make a stat check, you would want either a minus to your roll, or a plus to the stat, but not vice-versa.

Thankfully, that sort of foolishness was done away with.

 Psienesis wrote:
One thing that the change from 2nd Ed to 3rd Ed did very, very well for Dungeons & Dragons was to make the math all go in the same direction. A "plus" to something is now always a good thing, a "minus" is always a bad thing. In 1st and 2nd Ed, however, this was not the case. You would want a "plus" on your to-hit roll, but a minus to your THAC0 was better. If you had to make a stat check, you would want either a minus to your roll, or a plus to the stat, but not vice-versa.

Thankfully, that sort of foolishness was done away with.

Heartily agree here. Was always amusing watching the faces of new players as you explained that the +3 on your armor is actually *subtracted* from your armor class and not added to it. Hahahahahaha

Skriker

 Kroothawk wrote:


If you want realistic warfare, 40k is not the place for you . In 40k, chain swords, tanks with 500mm calibre, and titans make sense. It is a collection of SciFi memes, where all men are strong and all women are sexy. If you want to change iconic armour in 40k to something more realistic, start with Space Marine shoulder pads

Actually shoulder pads protect you from centre mass shots when in a shooting stance.



Big shoulder pads actually make allot of sense if you're looking for maximum centre mass protection in a gun fight .

See the firewarrior pad for that.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
all i am going to add to this topic is that everything is better with boobies... that is all

Exacly

 Daemonhammer wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
all i am going to add to this topic is that everything is better with boobies... that is all

Exacly

I heartily disagree, Ogryn would not be better with boobs, neither would Orks nor Tyranids, all of them would be disturbing.

 Wardragoon wrote:

 Daemonhammer wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
all i am going to add to this topic is that everything is better with boobies... that is all

Exacly

I heartily disagree, Ogryn would not be better with boobs, neither would Orks nor Tyranids, all of them would be disturbing.

Great, now I'm thinking of 6 boobed broodlords, and those damned Orcish cheerleaders.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Wardragoon wrote:

 Daemonhammer wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
all i am going to add to this topic is that everything is better with boobies... that is all

Exacly

I heartily disagree, Ogryn would not be better with boobs, neither would Orks nor Tyranids, all of them would be disturbing.

Great, now I'm thinking of 6 boobed broodlords, and those damned Orcish cheerleaders.

You see those once and then they haunt your dreams forever...

I think the funky corset/ boob-bump armour the sisters have going on is a bit too much. They could still look like the walking shrines they're supposed to be with more practical torso armour.

 Banzaimash wrote:
I think the funky corset/ boob-bump armour the sisters have going on is a bit too much. They could still look like the walking shrines they're supposed to be with more practical torso armour.

I think you just stated an oxymoron.

I heartily agree Skriker, this isn't dumbing down the game but streamlining it so it moves in a flowing manor. Sure thats how the game should be? Flowing! Witchhunters was an awefull codex, which is why it was shelved. the SoB focuses on the sisters finally again, and streamlining the acts of faith was a good move by GW, it not only makes them easier to use, but faster, which is something they needed as try playing with sisters in a 6V6 people apocalypse game under the witchhunters codex, it was a nightmare and slowed the game down stupidly.

wait So GW nerfed faith powers which worked perfectly well in non apo games to make the less offten , if ever played, apo games better ?
that makes no sense . It would make sense If Ward made them auto cast and less powerful , sort like eldar warlock powers . Or just build in to SoB units [all regular sob re-roll 1s to hit/wound for example] . They didnt make it faster too , Your actualy rolling more then you rolled before . Because before the WD dex you had a fixed number of faith + the stuff you got from killing superiors. now you roll for powers, which are weaker, you roll how much faith you get .


ah and as apocalyps goes . The fact that sob get the same number of faith points at 500 and 5000pts is loltastic.
Only thing the WD dex did is that now SoB opponents dont have to learn how and when sob powers can be cast , how they work etc. The change didnt make the SoB work better , only thing it did is make them less playable . GW may have as well phased them out .

Makumba wrote:
They didnt make it faster too , Your actualy rolling more then you rolled before . Because before the WD dex you had a fixed number of faith + the stuff you got from killing superiors. now you roll for powers, which are weaker, you roll how much faith you get .

It's still faster IMO. With the old codex I had to calculate starting Faith and keep the books on how much was used and how much I gained from martyrs. And I had to count the models in the squad every time to find the target number. And then explain it to my opponent once again when he got confused with high/low rolls or why an IC got to test on Leadership.

But I do agree that they should get a bit more in bigger games, and probably less in small games.

Spetulhu wrote:

Makumba wrote:
They didnt make it faster too , Your actualy rolling more then you rolled before . Because before the WD dex you had a fixed number of faith + the stuff you got from killing superiors. now you roll for powers, which are weaker, you roll how much faith you get .

It's still faster IMO. With the old codex I had to calculate starting Faith and keep the books on how much was used and how much I gained from martyrs. And I had to count the models in the squad every time to find the target number. And then explain it to my opponent once again when he got confused with high/low rolls or why an IC got to test on Leadership.

But I do agree that they should get a bit more in bigger games, and probably less in small games.

That sounds more like a personal issue rather than it being a universal thing.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Makumba wrote:
They didnt make it faster too , Your actualy rolling more then you rolled before . Because before the WD dex you had a fixed number of faith + the stuff you got from killing superiors. now you roll for powers, which are weaker, you roll how much faith you get .

It's still faster IMO. With the old codex I had to calculate starting Faith and keep the books on how much was used and how much I gained from martyrs. And I had to count the models in the squad every time to find the target number. And then explain it to my opponent once again when he got confused with high/low rolls or why an IC got to test on Leadership.

But I do agree that they should get a bit more in bigger games, and probably less in small games.

That sounds more like a personal issue rather than it being a universal thing.

Well the issue of having to explain in excruciating detail of what faith points do seems to have gone... so I don't see how its a personal thing :/

All I'm going to say is this..

Sometimes... some woman.. like to look like women. That is their choice.

Perhaps.. just perhaps.. the sisters -wanted- Feminine looking boob plates, because they wanted to look feminine?

All the talk of "armour efficiency" and "sexualisation" is irrelevant. The sisters are styled like that because thats the way someone decided to sculpt them. Why does there always have to be a "hidden agenda" to everything??

Hetelic... sense you speak

ah and as apocalyps goes . The fact that sob get the same number of faith points at 500 and 5000pts is loltastic.
Only thing the WD dex did is that now SoB opponents dont have to learn how and when sob powers can be cast , how they work etc. The change didnt make the SoB work better , only thing it did is make them less playable . GW may have as well phased them out .

The sky didn't fall, and the SoB are as playable as before - probably more competitive then they were through most of 5th. You don't see a lot of them simply because they remain absurdly expensive. The faith mechanic needs a bit of work for real codex release, but it's a good stopgap that makes things simpler and defines individual units roles, which is a good thing. They just need to work out something better than a flat d6, maybe make them somewhat easier to get off.

 Hollowman wrote:

ah and as apocalyps goes . The fact that sob get the same number of faith points at 500 and 5000pts is loltastic.
Only thing the WD dex did is that now SoB opponents dont have to learn how and when sob powers can be cast , how they work etc. The change didnt make the SoB work better , only thing it did is make them less playable . GW may have as well phased them out .

The sky didn't fall, and the SoB are as playable as before - probably more competitive then they were through most of 5th. You don't see a lot of them simply because they remain absurdly expensive. The faith mechanic needs a bit of work for real codex release, but it's a good stopgap that makes things simpler and defines individual units roles, which is a good thing. They just need to work out something better than a flat d6, maybe make them somewhat easier to get off.

And a lot of plastic mini's lols